Ball speed versus Big Arm

kskboys

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I take it as ball speed is how fast/hard the ball is thrown. its not necessarily a quick release but the speed of the ball after the release to the receiver. Namath/Elway comes to mind for their ball speed but theres a lot more. Big arm is the ability to throw for distance. Bobby Douglas of the Bears was said to be able to throw it 90 yards. Jeff George also had a big arm (70+ yards). You need accuracy to go with a big arm. Elway and Marino are 2 that come to mind that had both (Marino also had the quick release)
Don Meredith still holds the record for the longest pass completion w/ no YAC. It was like 83 yards.
 

ondaedg

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I can't imagine a case where you can throw a ball a high speed but can't throw it far. Only difference would be trajectory.

From an article written by a physics professor for Forbes:

So, the benefit of throwing a spiral in football isn't that the spin makes the ball go farther-- all else being equal, a non-spinning ball ought to have a greater range. Putting spin on the ball allows greater accuracy, because the flight is more predictable. This indirectly leads to longer passes, as distance multiplies the effect of inaccuracy, but that's an effective range, not a question of sheer distance. The signature of a great quarterback like Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady is not just the ability to throw a ball a long distance, but to throw the ball where they want it to go, and throwing a tight spiral is essential to that.
 

School

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Fun fact about Haskins, the Commanders new qb. He only threw 52 mph. Combine that with him being a non-plus athlete with a very limited track record of production, and his outlook is not great.
 

xwalker

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Guys:

Could anyone explain "Ball Speed" versus "Big Arm". I think Dak's was 53 or 54 and the Houston QB 49, yet I read articles of the Houston QB's big arm. Is there a direct connection between ball speed and the difficult throws you can make? Bottom line I just wonder how good an arm Dak has compared to other QBs.

JR

The velocity measurements were not from QBs trying to throw at max velocity.

The available velocity numbers are unofficial and recorded by draft-media guys at the combine. The media guys don't even get the same numbers.

The measurements are from QBs throwing to receivers at the combine where they are focused on accurately completing the pass and are not focused on max velocity.

Many QBs could throw with higher velocity if they were just throwing the ball and not trying to complete a pass to a receiver.

Kellen Moore could throw long passes but he had to use and exaggerated step-thru throwing motion which QBs often can't use due to pressure.

On the flip side, Brett Farve could throw as far as he wanted even if his feet were in concrete.

This article goes into more detail about it.
http://insidethepylon.com/nfl/2019-nfl-draft/2019/03/10/ball-velocity-is-bunk/
 

Hadenough

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Guys:

Could anyone explain "Ball Speed" versus "Big Arm". I think Dak's was 53 or 54 and the Houston QB 49, yet I read articles of the Houston QB's big arm. Is there a direct connection between ball speed and the difficult throws you can make? Bottom line I just wonder how good an arm Dak has compared to other QBs.

JR
The problem with measuring ball speed with a radar gun and then comparing players by using the ball speed is it doesnt really tell the truth. When these QBs are throwing for the radar gun they are in a perfect clean situation where they get to wind up and take one or two steps to throw the ball as hard as they can without being accurate. A lot of guys can rear back and throw the football hard but not everyone can be off balance and throw the foot ball hard with accuracy. When you watch Dak throw deeper routes he either puts too much air under the ball or when he tries to get more on it he looks like he is muscling the throw.
IN Daks defense his TD throws to Gallup last season looked very good. Just enough height and velocity. Those type of throws are much easier to make because the WR was wide open and could also adjust left or right to the ball. We dont see Dak attempt many crossing routes 15 yards down the field with the CB a step or two behind the WR because Dak tends to struggle just enough where the ball could be thrown behind the WR and since it doesnt have enough velocity on it the CB can break on it and it becomes an int. Some of the problems with accuracy depend on how much effort has to be put into making the throw. A guy that is putting 90% effort will lose control more often than a guy who is putting in 75% effort.
 

Jarv

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also important in all of that is release time. how long is the wind up and delivery....that's why a lot of taller QBs are shunned or haven't found much success, because it takes too long to wind up and throw the ball and that leads to sacks, etc. that's what made Marino great, because he had such a quick release. mahomes is similar, he maynot have the strongest arm but has a rather quick release

now, in regards to these ball speed reports....if its measured during combine or some other way, the QB may knowingly alter his throwing motion to get more speed which is not realistic. I wonder if they measure this from game tape...doubt it.

and the other piece of course...accuracy...can I get the ball to where I want to get it and hit my target....
Great post, quick release QBs also have the advantage of beating the rush.

I used to play baseball with a friend of mine, not a huge guy but he had a rocket arm at Shortstop and hit a ton of home runs. I asked him how he did this, since he wasn't a big strong guy? He said it was his wrists. His family business was well drilling, he was taking long sections of water pipes and spinning them together (threaded) into wells, section by section up to 500 ft down. Think about taking a heavy rounded object and spinning it with your wrist all day. I always wondered since then if this was a training method that could help athletes train in sports, for like pitchers and QBs, to help improve their release and speed, but haven't seen much mention of it. People like our current OC Moore, they said he had a great football mind (and college record), but didn't have NFL arm strength. I thought, why can't that be increased through wrist exercises?

Hey, but what do I know, I'm not an trainer.
 

cnuball21

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It’s the same thing. Guys with big arms will typically have higher ball speed.
 

joseephuss

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Of the guys who actually threw, I didn't see any name QB as low as Dak. On the bright side, Mahomes and Wilson were just a point higher.

I guess it depends on how you define "name QB".

Lamar Jackson 49, 49
Mitch Trubisky 51, 50
Deshaun Watson 45, 45

These guys are all starters and have started playoff games. I consider them "name QB".

Trace McSorely 53, 52
Dwayne Haskins 52,52

Both guys just got drafted.

These aren't big names, but they are brought up by a few fans that want them to be brought in:

Connor Cook 50
Landry Jones 53
Tyrod Taylor 50
 

CowboysFaninHouston

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Great post, quick release QBs also have the advantage of beating the rush.

I used to play baseball with a friend of mine, not a huge guy but he had a rocket arm at Shortstop and hit a ton of home runs. I asked him how he did this, since he wasn't a big strong guy? He said it was his wrists. His family business was well drilling, he was taking long sections of water pipes and spinning them together (threaded) into wells, section by section up to 500 ft down. Think about taking a heavy rounded object and spinning it with your wrist all day. I always wondered since then if this was a training method that could help athletes train in sports, for like pitchers and QBs, to help improve their release and speed, but haven't seen much mention of it. People like our current OC Moore, they said he had a great football mind (and college record), but didn't have NFL arm strength. I thought, why can't that be increased through wrist exercises?

Hey, but what do I know, I'm not an trainer.
good points...I think a lot of what you said is true. some activities, as unconventional as it may sound, lead to skills/ability in other areas....I remember Jerry rice once said he used to work for his uncle brick construction business or something, catching bricks all day.. they would be throwing bricks to get it from the pile to the wall and he said, I other caught it or I got hurt. he had one of the best hands in NFL ever (yes, plus route running too)....

and yes, wrist strength defintley has something to do with it...timing it of all of course, that last snap of the wrist, at the right time in the throw just adds that zip....we have heard announcers say, he just got it there with a flip of his wrist....
 

ABQCOWBOY

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Quick release. confidence get the ball out. Ball speed mph how quick it gets there. Joe Montana have to be the softest ball I've ever seen through. But it was always on the money. So does it really matter.

Oh yeah. I mean, a lot of it depends on the WRs as well. If you have WRs who can run really good routes, they make a lot of throws easier because the coverage is usually not as tight as it might otherwise be and the Offense you run also makes a difference but yes, the velocity on the ball can make all the difference in the world, especially in the NFL. The WC was made for Joe Montana. Put him in the Offense that Norv ran and he's not nearly as successful but, in the WC, he was Joe Montana.
 

OmerV

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I can't imagine a case where you can throw a ball a high speed but can't throw it far. Only difference would be trajectory.

This is exactly right. Both distance and speed in a shorter area are a function of velocity. The one difference is that on a deep pass a QB may have more opportunity to kind wind up or step into the throw to get the velocity, whereas on a shorter throw a QB may have to get the velocity with a quick release throw. Accordingly, speed on shorter throws can depend on how effectively a QB can get the velocity from a quick release.
 

joseephuss

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These guys are tested in drills where they take a drop, plant and throw. I don't believe they test them flat footed or with a running start. In those QB challenges, the QB take a running start to launch the ball as far as they can. In a game, if the initial read isn't open, then the QB is basically standing there flat footed. These drills also don't take into account a QB's ability to throw from different platforms. Mahomes doesn't have tremendous ball velocity on these throws, but he also doesn't lose much when he has to make throws off balance. Some other QBs lose quite a bit if they aren't nice and clean in the pocket.
 

texbumthelife

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Ball speed is more functional arm strength

This.

Ball speed is less about trajectory or distance and more about those tight rope throws. I've know guys who could heave a ball 60 yards, but couldn't throw a 20 yard pass on a rope.

Ball speed helps with timing. A QB with higher velocity/ball speed, will have a larger margin for error in his timing throws because he can zip it in there. Guys with good velocity usually have compact throwing motions with a quick release.
 

HungryLion

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Moral of the story.

Dak doesn’t have a “cannon” or an exceptionally powerful arm.

However, he does have the arm strength needed to make all of the necessary NFL throws.

If Dak is unsuccessful, arm strength won’t be the reason why.

His footwork is the issue.
 

erod

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It's more about quick release. If you have to wind up to throw, windows close fast.
 

Whirlwin

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Oh yeah. I mean, a lot of it depends on the WRs as well. If you have WRs who can run really good routes, they make a lot of throws easier because the coverage is usually not as tight as it might otherwise be and the Offense you run also makes a difference but yes, the velocity on the ball can make all the difference in the world, especially in the NFL. The WC was made for Joe Montana. Put him in the Offense that Norv ran and he's not nearly as successful but, in the WC, he was Joe Montana.
The only thing I was saying about Joe was. I can't believe what a slow pretty ball he threw. And it was always on target. But you're right that's why he failed with Kansas City
 
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