Carl Nicks toe injury may affect rest of career

Idgit

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and your whole arguement is destroyed because the Boys have shown no ability at all to develope Offensive guards.

This is what gets said every time I make this point, and I counter it everytime by saying that the problem, then, is to make whatever changes are necessary to be able to develop OGs. And then I follow that up with saying that I think that's what JG has tried to do in replacing Houck with Callahan, changing out the OTs and the C, and signing the stop-gap OGs while he tried to develop players like Leary, Kowalski, and Arkin.

At the end of the day, if you can't develop players along your lines, you're at a huge competitive disadvantage to teams that can. That's something an organization absolutely has to address. Otherwise, you're spending limited resources on positions that can be filled less expensively, leaving you tighter against the cap than you want to be and trying to get lucky finding inexpensive options for the very hardest positions to fill. It doesn't matter if this team hasn't been good at it recently. You can't just give up on the idea, you have to be Realistic and address it and fix it. Change coaches, change philosophies, dedicate TC roster spots to it, bring in value FAs. Do whatever you have to to solve the problem without spending resources you can't spare to fill positions that should be easiest to fill internally.
 

MichaelWinicki

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Where? Not in any games that counted! As Parcells used to say, put away the anointing oil.

Agreed.

But the nature of the beast is out of 22 starting players, where the average career is 4 years, you are going to throw some guys out there who are untested... And at least Leary has performed well during the preseason... It's much better than performing lousy and then having to face the Giants in the first game of the season.
 

Galian Beast

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The lack of logic is making my head want to blow up. Nicks getting injured as a buccaneer has no impact on if he was a cowboy. It's like saying, if you were hit by a train in idaho, you would have been hit by a train in north dakota... Makes no sense.
 

marchetta

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It's not the toe injury he has to worry about. It's the injury he's more susceptible to get as a result of compensating for the toe injury.
 

conner01

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just shows that any player can be hurt at any time. it is always a crap shoot when you sign a free agent, a little less now with the rookie cap when drafting. but you just never know who or when an injury will occur. this is a violent game and these are huge men hitting each other and falling on each other. sometimes you just gotta get lucky
 

hra8700

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I look at it the other way.

For me the goal is to first reach the playoffs... not just one year via a high-risk move, but year after year, like present New England, Pittsburgh or Baltimore... Or if you will the Cowboys under Landry who had 20 straight winning seasons.

You put a consistent playoff team out there year after year and the odds for hitting a SB one of those years obviously increases.

That's what I want– a competitive team each and every year.

And when you make high-risk moves likes signing an expensive free agent you leave yourself open for a big-time salary cap hit which can greatly negate your ability to field a playoff team year after year.

About the only high-risk move I can think of when it comes to free agents that paid out in spades for the Cowboys was Deion.

There have been several flaming out failures like Galloway, Roy Williams (I know he was a trade and sign) and Marco Rivera.

And several... "OK, but nothing to write home about moves" like Bigg Davis and Carr's signing (so far).

I much prefer "Big moves at a low risk" like the trade for Charles Haley (a #2 and #3 pick if I remember) or like what New England did offering a 4th rounder for Randy Moss.

The other thing is that except for certain positions like QB, making a high-risk move, but for many positions like guard... Feh.

Football is a zero sum game, so a low risk approach won't get you to a consistently good team, it'll tend to get you to an 8-8 team. To get a team that consistently makes the playoffs, you would need to utilize a strategy of high risk early, luck out and get a lot of talent, and then play low risk from that point onwards.

What teams like the steelers, ravens, and patriots do is to look for value in the draft and free agency, so that what they pay is always less than what they receive. That's of course optimal.
 

MichaelWinicki

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Football is a zero sum game, so a low risk approach won't get you to a consistently good team, it'll tend to get you to an 8-8 team. To get a team that consistently makes the playoffs, you would need to utilize a strategy of high risk early, luck out and get a lot of talent, and then play low risk from that point onwards.

What teams like the steelers, ravens, and patriots do is to look for value in the draft and free agency, so that what they pay is always less than what they receive. That's of course optimal.

See I think you have it backwards...

I think you get a team that consistently makes the playoffs by drafting well and uncovering "hidden gems" as both undrafted players and lower-priced free agents like Kyle Kosier.

THEN if you want to "swing for the fences" so be it.
 

Idgit

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Football is a zero sum game, so a low risk approach won't get you to a consistently good team, it'll tend to get you to an 8-8 team. To get a team that consistently makes the playoffs, you would need to utilize a strategy of high risk early, luck out and get a lot of talent, and then play low risk from that point onwards.

What teams like the steelers, ravens, and patriots do is to look for value in the draft and free agency, so that what they pay is always less than what they receive. That's of course optimal.

It's not just high-risk, it's also got to be high-reward. If you're taking a high degree of risk on players with a low degree of probably return, you're allocating your resources improperly. That's the reason why you don't overcommit cap resources at positions you can fill through the draft and VFA. It's why you see teams taking OGs and RBs most often after the first rounds of the draft and instead spending more of those picks on positions like QB, DL, OT, CB. There's a reason why that happens, on average. Maybe you mess up and have to reach now and then, but at that point, you're paying a premium on purpose to address an earlier mistake. If you have similar needs at DL or CB, though, you obviously spend the resources there and take your chances filling the lower-priority positions like OG where you can find and develop a Leary or a Bernadeau, if you get lucky.
 

Vintage

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It's not just high-risk, it's also got to be high-reward. If you're taking a high degree of risk on players with a low degree of probably return, you're allocating your resources improperly. That's the reason why you don't overcommit cap resources at positions you can fill through the draft and VFA. It's why you see teams taking OGs and RBs most often after the first rounds of the draft and instead spending more of those picks on positions like QB, DL, OT, CB. There's a reason why that happens, on average. Maybe you mess up and have to reach now and then, but at that point, you're paying a premium on purpose to address an earlier mistake. If you have similar needs at DL or CB, though, you obviously spend the resources there and take your chances filling the lower-priority positions like OG where you can find and develop a Leary or a Bernadeau, if you get lucky.

No, no, no, no. You build teams by investing a high 1st round pick on an OG after spending a pretty penny on another OG in the off-season. OGs are vital to building a team. Ask a true, well run franchuse like Tennessee. Locker us going to look Peyton Manning esque because those OGs will carry that team to victory and exponentially improve their QB play.
 

Idgit

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No, no, no, no. You build teams by investing a high 1st round pick on an OG after spending a pretty penny on another OG in the off-season. OGs are vital to building a team. Ask a true, well run franchuse like Tennessee. Locker us going to look Peyton Manning esque because those OGs will carry that team to victory and exponentially improve their QB play.

The one with the best pair of OGs wins!
 

hra8700

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See I think you have it backwards...

I think you get a team that consistently makes the playoffs by drafting well and uncovering "hidden gems" as both undrafted players and lower-priced free agents like Kyle Kosier.

THEN if you want to "swing for the fences" so be it.

I agree, the key is to do that but that means you have to be smarter than every other gm, which is easier to say than to do. But if you haven't drafted well (as in the case of the bucs), then you have a lot of cap space that has to be used. In those cases, I think the best way to manage that cap space is to sign the rare, young, injury free, consistent all-pro free agent. Carl Nicks was one of those. Sure, the best way to do it is to draft well and use your money to resign your own player like the Steelers do, but that won't always happen. Then you have to figure out how to use that extra cap space.

It's not just high-risk, it's also got to be high-reward. If you're taking a high degree of risk on players with a low degree of probably return, you're allocating your resources improperly. That's the reason why you don't overcommit cap resources at positions you can fill through the draft and VFA. It's why you see teams taking OGs and RBs most often after the first rounds of the draft and instead spending more of those picks on positions like QB, DL, OT, CB. There's a reason why that happens, on average. Maybe you mess up and have to reach now and then, but at that point, you're paying a premium on purpose to address an earlier mistake. If you have similar needs at DL or CB, though, you obviously spend the resources there and take your chances filling the lower-priority positions like OG where you can find and develop a Leary or a Bernadeau, if you get lucky.

I think this year's draft and the o-line run are based on a few things:

1. As Bill Polian mentioned before last season, the NFL currently has the worst collective offensive line play he has ever seen. There is more and more demand for offensive linemen.
2. In a draft with few high upside players in high priority areas, teams tried to fill needs
3. Because the franchise tag for all offensive linemen is the same, it is essentially impossible to franchise elite interior lineman. Thus, the free agent price for these linemen is very high, artificially increasing their salaries in relation to other position groups. Therefore, drafting interior linemen that can start immediately at a low price becomes more and more valuable relative to other options in the 1st round.
4. The new cba has a higher salary cap floor and lower salary cap, thus high spending teams have less ability to sign high priced free agents. This makes it paramount to fill low priority positions with cheap players, and with only 4 years on most 1st round rookie contracts, the ability to start immediately becomes more and more important. Interior lineman can pick up the game much faster than receivers, corners, and many other positions.
5. Because teams will all still keep their elite players in elite positions, the best available free agents become elite interior offensive guards and inside linebackers because those players are difficult to franchise (paid like left tackles and 3-4 outside linebackers, respectively).
6. The rookie salary scale decreases salaries for high 1st round picks, thus no longer making it untenable to draft low value positions high (for instance, before a guard drafted in the top 10 could be a top 1 or 2 paid guard in the league).
7. The rookie salary scale decreases rookie contracts, thus increasing the RELATIVE value of veteran contracts. This again means that the value of a draft pick is increasingly in their ability to play while under their rookie deal rather than in finding projects to groom long-term and sign to an expensive veteran contract
 

SWG9

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No, no, no, no. You build teams by investing a high 1st round pick on an OG after spending a pretty penny on another OG in the off-season. OGs are vital to building a team. Ask a true, well run franchuse like Tennessee. Locker us going to look Peyton Manning esque because those OGs will carry that team to victory and exponentially improve their QB play.

Great point, a lot of people on this board were claiming that the Titans were going to win the Superbowl this season by virtue of their interior line play. You've cleverly pointed out that they won't win the 2013 championship, therefore, OG's are useless. The logic is air tight. Might as well close the thread.
 

Stash

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Agreed.

But the nature of the beast is out of 22 starting players, where the average career is 4 years, you are going to throw some guys out there who are untested... And at least Leary has performed well during the preseason... It's much better than performing lousy and then having to face the Giants in the first game of the season.

Absolutely agree. Up until the knee surgery, all reports were very good and I thought he looked great and had the LG spot locked up.

Hopefully, it's just a minor surgery and a bump in the road.

Then we'll be able to point to him as being a home-grown starter at the guard position.
 

SWG9

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It's not just high-risk, it's also got to be high-reward. If you're taking a high degree of risk on players with a low degree of probably return, you're allocating your resources improperly. That's the reason why you don't overcommit cap resources at positions you can fill through the draft and VFA. It's why you see teams taking OGs and RBs most often after the first rounds of the draft and instead spending more of those picks on positions like QB, DL, OT, CB. There's a reason why that happens, on average. Maybe you mess up and have to reach now and then, but at that point, you're paying a premium on purpose to address an earlier mistake. If you have similar needs at DL or CB, though, you obviously spend the resources there and take your chances filling the lower-priority positions like OG where you can find and develop a Leary or a Bernadeau, if you get lucky.

Although my head is spinning with all of the different risk assessments in this thread, I'll throw in another one: if you're going to commit serious resources or money to a player or position group, your objective should simply be to minimize your risk as much as possible.

Yes, if you have the 4th overall pick in the draft and you have a CB and OG with the same rating, you take the CB every time. If you have some money to use in FA and you have a LT and a safety with the same rating, you take the OT every time.

Where teams get into trouble is when they start talking themselves into paying top dollar for marginal talents at the premium positions. If the choice is between giving a second tier CB 30 million guaranteed or Nicks 30 million guaranteed, you pay Nicks every time.,

There was really nothing logically wrong with signing Nicks, just like there was nothing logically wrong with signing Marco Rivera way back when. It just might not work out for reasons outside anyone's control.
 
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