CBS: All-Time Best NFL Franchises

FuzzyLumpkins

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How so? Would you rather be the Bills with 4 losses or the Bucs or Saints with 1 win (but no other Super Bowl appearances)?

I notice not a single person criticizing my logic has answered my questions. And my questions are based on things that actually happened, not ridiculous hypotheticals.

Megalomania much?

Just because people don't answer your questions doesn't mean anything. You assume your question's premise and that is a fallacy. You cannot backdoor into truth by pretending to be it's arbiter. Begging the question is just bluster.
 

Nova

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How so? Would you rather be the Bills with 4 losses or the Bucs or Saints with 1 win (but no other Super Bowl appearances)?

I notice not a single person criticizing my logic has answered my questions. And my questions are based on things that actually happened, not ridiculous hypotheticals.


No one is answering it directly because it is a loaded question that you're only willing to take at a shallow value.

Sure, I'd take the Super Bowl over 4 conference championships.

But as you said, not all Super Bowls are created equal, and most fans would rather have a recent one. The guy under 40 doesn't remember the Dolphins success so he's probably envious of the Seahawks fan.

Taken one step further, the Jets have one Super Bowl win in '68. But outside of that, in the Super Bowl era they have been terrible. Do you think a bunch of guys under 40 care about that Super Bowl win as much as being competitive over the last 15 years-- like, say... The Eagles?

In that case, no. I would not take the one Super Bowl over sustained success.

Super Bowl wins as the only criteria is dismissive of an incredible amount of quantifiable and unquantifiable success and accomplishments that make up the history of the league.
 

dallasdave

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http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on...ankings-for-all-32-franchises?FTAG=YHF7e3228e


They took much of the bias out of it and calculated the rankings based on merit. What a novel idea :)

The criteria (points)

  • Super Bowl wins (10 each)
  • Super Bowl losses (5 each)
  • Hall of Famers (3 each)
  • Division titles (1 each)
  • All-time winning percentage (points are the reserve of their Super Bowl-era ranking)
  1. DALLAS
  2. Pittsburgh
  3. San Francisco
  4. Oakland
  5. Green Bay
  6. New England
  7. Washington
  8. Miami
  9. Minnesota
  10. Denver
etc

Love that 1st place team, just can't stand that 2nd place team !
 

DFWJC

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CowboysZone LOYAL Fan
No one is answering it directly because it is a loaded question that you're only willing to take at a shallow value.

Sure, I'd take the Super Bowl over 4 conference championships.

But as you said, not all Super Bowls are created equal, and most fans would rather have a recent one. The guy under 40 doesn't remember the Dolphins success so he's probably envious of the Seahawks fan.

Taken one step further, the Jets have one Super Bowl win in '68. But outside of that, in the Super Bowl era they have been terrible. Do you think a bunch of guys under 40 care about that Super Bowl win as much as being competitive over the last 15 years-- like, say... The Eagles?

In that case, no. I would not take the one Super Bowl over sustained success.

Super Bowl wins as the only criteria is dismissive of an incredible amount of quantifiable and unquantifiable success and accomplishments that make up the history of the league.
Thank You
Of course you take the Eagles as the better franchise than the Bucs or Jets even though the latter two have SB wins.
The question was about ranking the franchises and not whether we would like a SB better than a few runner ups.
Somehow, the OP topic got distorted.
 

Rogah

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Megalomania much?

Just because people don't answer your questions doesn't mean anything. You assume your question's premise and that is a fallacy. You cannot backdoor into truth by pretending to be it's arbiter. Begging the question is just bluster.
What are you talking about? The premise of my question are actual facts and things that happened.

You want to argue with me but you know I'm right. You know you would look stupid saying you'd rather be the Colts over the past 13 years than the Giants.
 

LittleBoyBlue

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http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on...ankings-for-all-32-franchises?FTAG=YHF7e3228e


They took much of the bias out of it and calculated the rankings based on merit. What a novel idea :)

The criteria (points)

  • Super Bowl wins (10 each)
  • Super Bowl losses (5 each)
  • Hall of Famers (3 each)
  • Division titles (1 each)
  • All-time winning percentage (points are the reserve of their Super Bowl-era ranking)
  1. DALLAS
  2. Pittsburgh
  3. San Francisco
  4. Oakland
  5. Green Bay
  6. New England
  7. Washington
  8. Miami
  9. Minnesota
  10. Denver
etc

They should have given a Jeopardy "Daily double" points score to buffalo for getting there 4 straight times. :)
 

RoboQB

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Way to go, Rogah.... way to take an otherwise fun thread and ruin it... take your ball and go home... hold your breath until you pass out... something.

To the OP, thank you for posting this. It is a fun read... there is no perfect criteria for something like this. However, it is an interesting take.
 

Rogah

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Way to go, Rogah.... way to take an otherwise fun thread and ruin it... take your ball and go home... hold your breath until you pass out... something.
Stating an opinion about how the CBS analysis is flawed is ruining the thread?

:huh: :huh: :huh:
 

RoboQB

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Stating an opinion about how the CBS analysis is flawed is ruining the thread?

:huh: :huh: :huh:


It is an incredibly strong opinion with a "my way or the highway" vibe... so, yes.

Others have used the link as a starting point to other interesting criteria... everyone else seemed to enjoy this topic in the
midst of a particularly boring stretch of NFL news reports... we get it... Super Bowl wins or bust... no other criteria... you're boring everyone.

Also, results would surmise that someone who has posted over 4500 messages and received less than 300 likes would put you
at the bottom of most lists.... but I'm sure you had a really great point once... might want to change your approach.
 

benson

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Stating an opinion about how the CBS analysis is flawed is ruining the thread?

:huh: :huh: :huh:

It's really quite simple. The CBS analysis wasn't trying to determine the franchise with the most super bowl wins, it was trying to determine the most successful franchises in the superbowl era.

A franchise that won two superbowls 40 and 39 years ago and has been 4-12 ever since is not more successful than a franchise that has been in the playoffs every year for 40 years, has multiple division titles, multiple conference championships, and has only one 1 superbowl.

You're basing your argument on the assumption that the measure of success in the NFL is superbowl or bust and that is simply not the case. Just look at any NFL stadium and you can see the division champion banners, the conference champion banners, and the members of the HoF likely in full display as measures of the franchises success.
 

Nightman

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It's really quite simple. The CBS analysis wasn't trying to determine the franchise with the most super bowl wins, it was trying to determine the most successful franchises in the superbowl era.

A franchise that won two superbowls 40 and 39 years ago and has been 4-12 ever since is not more successful than a franchise that has been in the playoffs every year for 40 years, has multiple division titles, multiple conference championships, and has only one 1 superbowl.

You're basing your argument on the assumption that the measure of success in the NFL is superbowl or bust and that is simply not the case. Just look at any NFL stadium and you can see the division champion banners, the conference champion banners, and the members of the HoF likely in full display as measures of the franchises success.

I would argue that 4 Super Bowl losses in 4 years is harder to accomplish than 1 random SB victory.

It may or may not have equal value but that is all about how much weight you give each.

10pts for a SB win and 5pts for a loss may be a little off, but how do you possibly say it is right or wrong?

SB losses are hard to take because you got so close, but getting so close is better than not going at all.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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What are you talking about? The premise of my question are actual facts and things that happened.

You want to argue with me but you know I'm right. You know you would look stupid saying you'd rather be the Colts over the past 13 years than the Giants.

Yeah, I cannot argue with you. . . .

Are you intent on behaving 12 years old?

The premise of your question is that if someone cannot answer it to your satisfaction, then that means you are correct on the overarching discussion. It's a convenient way to try to force oversimplified tripe as the fulcrum. You certainly do enough handwaving.
 

Rogah

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It is an incredibly strong opinion with a "my way or the highway" vibe... so, yes.
How is that any different from every single other poster on here?

Keep in mind that this is a CBS website that created the criteria. It isn't like someone in here came up with all that stuff and I attacked him.

Their criteria assigns equal value in losing 2 Super Bowls as winning 1. I am not going to apologize for calling out how stupid that is.
 

MichaelValentino

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How is that any different from every single other poster on here?

Keep in mind that this is a CBS website that created the criteria. It isn't like someone in here came up with all that stuff and I attacked him.

Their criteria assigns equal value in losing 2 Super Bowls as winning 1. I am not going to apologize for calling out how stupid that is.

Rogah, there is probably no perfect scoring system or methodology but I think the CBS scoring system is not glaringly wrong. As you know it attempted to award franchises for historical success and consistency. In the NFL that is difficult when evaluating teams during the Super Bowl era. Personally, I prefer the CBS method because it does reward teams for playoff success short of a SB win and not SB wins exclusively. Consider, for a wildcard team such as the 85 Patriots, they had to win three road games to make it to the SB. That was quite an accomplishment in and of itself. And hey, just for lining up against the 85 Bears should count for 5 points. Certainly, a SB victory is the ultimate goal and barometer of success. However, consider the 1970s Vikings or the 1990s Bills. They each had to beat a lot of good, playoff-tested teams to reach their respective SBs. The 74 Vikings played well defensively vs that Pittsburgh team but the offense could do nothing vs the Steel Curtain. Still, Minnesota should get credit for reaching the SB that year and for reaching three others that decade. The 90 Bills were "this close" to beating the NYG in SB 25, just missing on Norwood's FG that would have won it. The 91-93 Bills played a truly great, but often overlooked, Washington team followed by two dominant Dallas teams. The 90s Bills teams went 9-0 in the AFC playoffs (if memory serves me correctly) to get the honor to play in four consecutive SBs. I think that shows consistent excellence in the regular season to earn those playoff berths and consistent excellence in dominating their conference in the early 90s. But, from the 84 Niners to the 96 Packers, the NFC pretty much owned the AFC, and so the Bills - unfortunately for them - had to face three SB teams from the NFC that would have beaten the vast majority of AFC SB teams from SB 1-49. Personally, I think 5 of the top 6 greatest SB teams came from the NFC during that era: 84 Niners, 85 Bears, 89 Niners (possibly the best team ever), 91 Skins, 92 Cowboys (I put the 78 Steelers in the top 6). When the 78 Cowboys lost SB 13 to the Steelers, I think that was worth 5 points; certainly, that Dallas team would have beat many SB winners (including, I believe any of the four NE SB winners over the past 14 years), and in fact, I believe it was an ESPN poll that had the 78 Cowboys as the highest rated SB losing team among its list of the greatest teams of the SB era, and the 78 Cowboys were ranked ahead of most SB winning teams. I believe Lombardi trophies is only one part of the equation. Divisional and conference titles should also count because they do tell, as in the case of Dallas, Pittsburgh, SF, NE, in particular, a long-term standard of excellence. This exercise - I think we can all agree - would be much easier in the NHL or MLB where no matter what set of criteria one would use, the Canadians and Yankees would undoubtedly be the two elite franchises of their respective sports. Still, I believe you asked about taking 1 SB win (Bucs) or 4 SB losses (Vikings or Bills) and for me, it is easy: give me the SB win. Why? Because nothing hurts as much as a SB loss. I'm still hurting over the Blackhawks losing to the LA Kings last year or Italy losing to Brazil on penalty kicks in the 94 World Cup but nothing in sports compares to losing SB 13 vs the Steelers. Even beating Pittsburgh in SB 30 does not come close to making up for the loss in 78. Then again, that SB determined the NFL team of the decade. No other SB match-up has ever decided team of the decade. So, I guess my wounds run deep when it comes to SB losses. But if you ask me what is the greater accomplishment - winning one SB or winning four division titles, four conference titles and losing four SBs to some of the best teams ever - I'd have to say the latter.
 

Rogah

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Rogah, there is probably no perfect scoring system or methodology but I think the CBS scoring system is not glaringly wrong. As you know it attempted to award franchises for historical success and consistency. In the NFL that is difficult when evaluating teams during the Super Bowl era. Personally, I prefer the CBS method because it does reward teams for playoff success short of a SB win and not SB wins exclusively. Consider, for a wildcard team such as the 85 Patriots, they had to win three road games to make it to the SB. That was quite an accomplishment in and of itself. And hey, just for lining up against the 85 Bears should count for 5 points. Certainly, a SB victory is the ultimate goal and barometer of success. However, consider the 1970s Vikings or the 1990s Bills. They each had to beat a lot of good, playoff-tested teams to reach their respective SBs.
Be that as it may, the Bills were still the laughingstock of the NFL during that time period. Many were the late night jokes told at Buffalo's expense. It actually got to the point where it was unfair (not that that stopped me from laughing).
The 74 Vikings played well defensively vs that Pittsburgh team but the offense could do nothing vs the Steel Curtain. Still, Minnesota should get credit for reaching the SB that year and for reaching three others that decade. The 90 Bills were "this close" to beating the NYG in SB 25, just missing on Norwood's FG that would have won it. The 91-93 Bills played a truly great, but often overlooked, Washington team followed by two dominant Dallas teams. The 90s Bills teams went 9-0 in the AFC playoffs (if memory serves me correctly) to get the honor to play in four consecutive SBs. I think that shows consistent excellence in the regular season to earn those playoff berths and consistent excellence in dominating their conference in the early 90s. But, from the 84 Niners to the 96 Packers, the NFC pretty much owned the AFC, and so the Bills - unfortunately for them - had to face three SB teams from the NFC that would have beaten the vast majority of AFC SB teams from SB 1-49. Personally, I think 5 of the top 6 greatest SB teams came from the NFC during that era: 84 Niners, 85 Bears, 89 Niners (possibly the best team ever), 91 Skins, 92 Cowboys (I put the 78 Steelers in the top 6). When the 78 Cowboys lost SB 13 to the Steelers, I think that was worth 5 points; certainly, that Dallas team would have beat many SB winners (including, I believe any of the four NE SB winners over the past 14 years), and in fact, I believe it was an ESPN poll that had the 78 Cowboys as the highest rated SB losing team among its list of the greatest teams of the SB era, and the 78 Cowboys were ranked ahead of most SB winning teams. I believe Lombardi trophies is only one part of the equation. Divisional and conference titles should also count because they do tell, as in the case of Dallas, Pittsburgh, SF, NE, in particular, a long-term standard of excellence. This exercise - I think we can all agree - would be much easier in the NHL or MLB where no matter what set of criteria one would use, the Canadians and Yankees would undoubtedly be the two elite franchises of their respective sports. Still, I believe you asked about taking 1 SB win (Bucs) or 4 SB losses (Vikings or Bills) and for me, it is easy: give me the SB win. Why? Because nothing hurts as much as a SB loss. I'm still hurting over the Blackhawks losing to the LA Kings last year or Italy losing to Brazil on penalty kicks in the 94 World Cup but nothing in sports compares to losing SB 13 vs the Steelers. Even beating Pittsburgh in SB 30 does not come close to making up for the loss in 78. Then again, that SB determined the NFL team of the decade. No other SB match-up has ever decided team of the decade. So, I guess my wounds run deep when it comes to SB losses. But if you ask me what is the greater accomplishment - winning one SB or winning four division titles, four conference titles and losing four SBs to some of the best teams ever - I'd have to say the latter.
It may be the rarer accomplishment but I wouldn't call it the greater accomplishment. I doubt there are many Bills fans who wouldn't gladly trade all 4 trips to the Super Bowl for 1 trip with 1 win.
 

Nightman

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Rogah, there is probably no perfect scoring system or methodology but I think the CBS scoring system is not glaringly wrong. As you know it attempted to award franchises for historical success and consistency. In the NFL that is difficult when evaluating teams during the Super Bowl era. Personally, I prefer the CBS method because it does reward teams for playoff success short of a SB win and not SB wins exclusively. Consider, for a wildcard team such as the 85 Patriots, they had to win three road games to make it to the SB. That was quite an accomplishment in and of itself. And hey, just for lining up against the 85 Bears should count for 5 points. Certainly, a SB victory is the ultimate goal and barometer of success. However, consider the 1970s Vikings or the 1990s Bills. They each had to beat a lot of good, playoff-tested teams to reach their respective SBs. The 74 Vikings played well defensively vs that Pittsburgh team but the offense could do nothing vs the Steel Curtain. Still, Minnesota should get credit for reaching the SB that year and for reaching three others that decade. The 90 Bills were "this close" to beating the NYG in SB 25, just missing on Norwood's FG that would have won it. The 91-93 Bills played a truly great, but often overlooked, Washington team followed by two dominant Dallas teams. The 90s Bills teams went 9-0 in the AFC playoffs (if memory serves me correctly) to get the honor to play in four consecutive SBs. I think that shows consistent excellence in the regular season to earn those playoff berths and consistent excellence in dominating their conference in the early 90s. But, from the 84 Niners to the 96 Packers, the NFC pretty much owned the AFC, and so the Bills - unfortunately for them - had to face three SB teams from the NFC that would have beaten the vast majority of AFC SB teams from SB 1-49. Personally, I think 5 of the top 6 greatest SB teams came from the NFC during that era: 84 Niners, 85 Bears, 89 Niners (possibly the best team ever), 91 Skins, 92 Cowboys (I put the 78 Steelers in the top 6). When the 78 Cowboys lost SB 13 to the Steelers, I think that was worth 5 points; certainly, that Dallas team would have beat many SB winners (including, I believe any of the four NE SB winners over the past 14 years), and in fact, I believe it was an ESPN poll that had the 78 Cowboys as the highest rated SB losing team among its list of the greatest teams of the SB era, and the 78 Cowboys were ranked ahead of most SB winning teams. I believe Lombardi trophies is only one part of the equation. Divisional and conference titles should also count because they do tell, as in the case of Dallas, Pittsburgh, SF, NE, in particular, a long-term standard of excellence. This exercise - I think we can all agree - would be much easier in the NHL or MLB where no matter what set of criteria one would use, the Canadians and Yankees would undoubtedly be the two elite franchises of their respective sports. Still, I believe you asked about taking 1 SB win (Bucs) or 4 SB losses (Vikings or Bills) and for me, it is easy: give me the SB win. Why? Because nothing hurts as much as a SB loss. I'm still hurting over the Blackhawks losing to the LA Kings last year or Italy losing to Brazil on penalty kicks in the 94 World Cup but nothing in sports compares to losing SB 13 vs the Steelers. Even beating Pittsburgh in SB 30 does not come close to making up for the loss in 78. Then again, that SB determined the NFL team of the decade. No other SB match-up has ever decided team of the decade. So, I guess my wounds run deep when it comes to SB losses. But if you ask me what is the greater accomplishment - winning one SB or winning four division titles, four conference titles and losing four SBs to some of the best teams ever - I'd have to say the latter.

I agree completely. The sting of losing a Super Bowl never goes away. But making it there is a great accomplishment.

That is why most fans would take one victory over 4 losses, but any objective ranking system would place a great value on just making it.
 

RoboQB

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How is that any different from every single other poster on here?

Keep in mind that this is a CBS website that created the criteria. It isn't like someone in here came up with all that stuff and I attacked him.

Their criteria assigns equal value in losing 2 Super Bowls as winning 1. I am not going to apologize for calling out how stupid that is.


I never expected you to apologize... I also never claimed that the CBS criteria had nailed it... your criteria is just further off.
 

BoysFan4ever

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Way to go, Rogah.... way to take an otherwise fun thread and ruin it... take your ball and go home... hold your breath until you pass out... something.

To the OP, thank you for posting this. It is a fun read... there is no perfect criteria for something like this. However, it is an interesting take.

Funny!!
 

WPBCowboysFan

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Way to go, Rogah.... way to take an otherwise fun thread and ruin it... take your ball and go home... hold your breath until you pass out... something.

To the OP, thank you for posting this. It is a fun read... there is no perfect criteria for something like this. However, it is an interesting take.

:thumbup::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
 
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