Cowboys Release Greg Ellis

Alexander

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Star4Ever;2796850 said:
Ah, I don't think so. Ellis played DE in college, he was drafted as a DE, and he played DE most of his career with the Cowboys. What in the hell would make him appreciative of learning a new position after all that time.

Because playing OLB not only reduced the wear and tear on his body, but it resulted in the most productive years of his entire career. He finally lived up to his draft status. He finally broke double digits sacks for his career.

I'm not saying he was treated wrongly or that moving him was a bad thing, but it was done for the team not for him personally.

Wrong. It was done so he could continue to play and become even more productive. He would have been a role player as a 3-4 end as he was in 2006.

Therefore, I have no idea why you made the statement about getting down on his knees regarding the switch.

Even Ellis himself credited Parcells for the move and expressed a small measure of thanks. He was wrong, Parcells was right. But please, continue.

If you don't give him credit for that, then all I can say is you're a hater in regards to him.

I'll give him credit for several strong productive years (finally)to close out his career in Dallas. I'll also give him credit for coming back from the Achilles injury to do it. We finally got what we thought we were getting when he was drafted.

I don't even think his play on the field was horrible and he needed to go. His influence in the lockerroom plus what we know would be his rejection of a reduced role is why he needed to go and thankfully Jones finally decided to say thanks for the memories.
 

Hostile

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Alexander;2797071 said:
I love the little twist this thread has taken where the sentimental Ellis apologists want to use his character as a reason why this is somehow a bad move for the franchise and more importantly, not fair to Ellis.

Well, he wasn't a MURDERER or RAPIST, so its unfair what happened to him!

Give me a break. What these players do off the field is irrelevant. Some of the greatest players ever in this team's rich history were far from choir boys.

I guess some people still haven't got over their immature romanticism of football players. Not everyone can be Roger Staubach. In fact, those types of "good guys" on and off the field are practically non-existant.
Co-sign. Really good post. I don't care at this juncture about his good character. Victor Butler and Branden Williams have good character too. Which one of them gets sacrificed so he can keep on being a Dallas Cowboy? Because ultimately, that is the only option. We are not keeping 5 OLBs. His age and the salary cap relief we get for releasing him are more than adequate reasons to let him go.
 

DeaconBlues

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burmafrd;2797058 said:
Goodrich was hit and run and was not deliberate so that is not murder, only in haters eyes. Septien was going to be released since with his back he was going downhill fast- miss again. Henderson did nothing except coke up- he was never accused of anything else. SO your list is full of BS just like your original post. As regards Rentzel he flashed a young girl, which is disgusting but not rape or anything close to it- though maybe in the mind of a hater like you....

I stated murder, which is what Goodrich was convicted of, aka homicide.

So that is factual.

Septien was a member of the team.

So that is factual.

Henderson, in his autobiography, wrote he shared drugs and had sex with underage girls. Statutory rape.

So that is factual.

Rentzel exposed himself to an underage girl. Sexual misconduct with a minor.

So that is factual.

Your ignorance shows.
 

theebs

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M'Kevon;2797122 said:
I stated murder, which is what Goodrich was convicted of, aka homicide.

So that is factual.

Septien was a member of the team.

So that is factual.

Henderson, in his autobiography, wrote he shared drugs and had sex with underage girls. Statutory rape.

So that is factual.

Rentzel exposed himself to an underage girl. Sexual misconduct with a minor.

So that is factual.

Your ignorance shows.


can you list the steelers of the 70s faults now.

We will all be waiting.
 

DallasEast

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Star4Ever;2796850 said:
Ah, I don't think so. Ellis played DE in college, he was drafted as a DE, and he played DE most of his career with the Cowboys. What in the hell would make him appreciative of learning a new position after all that time. I'm not saying he was treated wrongly or that moving him was a bad thing, but it was done for the team not for him personally. Therefore, I have no idea why you made the statement about getting down on his knees regarding the switch. Ellis was a DE. He never had the mobility or cover skill to play an OLB anywhere near as well as Ware. And why would he? He had always played DE. That having been said, I think he played fairly well considering he had to learn a new position on the fly. If you don't give him credit for that, then all I can say is you're a hater in regards to him.
Well, we have to look at that a bit more closely.

Greg Ellis played 4-3 defensive end in college. He was drafted as a 4-3 defensive end. Until Bill Parcells' arrival, he played as a 4-3 defensive end.

As a 4-3 defensive end, Ellis' primary responsibilities were to hold the point of attack during rushing downs and rush the quarterback in passing situations. He always played well versus the run, but he only had moderate success rushing the passer. In the 4-3, he had ideal size as a defensive end, but only average speed.

In the 3-4, Ellis would have been asked to bulk up to not only fend off tackle-tight end/tackle-guard double teams, but to shield offensive lineman from linebackers. That type of conversion is usually reserved for 4-3 defensive tackles, not ends. Defensive tackles are better equipped to handle the weight increase (if any), shed blockers from a down stance and protect linebackers.

Asking Ellis to convert to a 3-4 defensive end would have mandated that he increase his body mass which would have helped further negate his average speed. He would have been asked to stay in a down stance on practically every down, which he had not been accustomed to doing his whole football career. Another thing which he would have been required to do was hold up blockers first and then consider rushing the passer second on most passing downs. This is yet another condition of being a 3-4 defensive end which he would have had to adopt.

To keep him on the roster as a starter, Parcells had two choices:
  • Convert Ellis to a position which subtracted from his strengths as a player or
  • Convert Ellis to a position which maintained his strengths and possibly enhance some of them too
By having Ellis change to a 3-4 outside linebacker, Parcells reduced his body mass. The change aided Ellis by optimizing his average speed and endurance. It allowed him greater freedom to rush the quarterback than what would have been possible as a 3-4 defensive end--further playing to his strengths as an ex-defensive end. And it allowed him more freedom during rushing downs to flow more easily from sideline-to-sideline. The only real disadvantage for him making the change was in passing situations where he had to execute his coverage assignments due to his average speed.

Ellis hated the change. Any player would normally resist moving out of their comfort zone, but the general defensive philosophy changed with Parcells coming aboard. He was going to struggle more with a position that he was more closely acquainted with; or he was going to be as good as before or better at a new position (which he himself proved); or he wasn't going to be on the field much or at all.

For the good of the Cowboys and himself, he accepted the change and he should feel grantful. The move helped lengthen his career. As he enters the market, his position options are not limited to only one. Parcells multiplied them by two and Ellis will benefit from his foresight at this later stage of his career.
 

Alexander

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burmafrd;2797141 said:
Henderson also admitted he did not know if they were truly underaged but he thought so- and it was willing so as far as the stauatory part that is also weak.

I hope we cut Marcus Dixon immediately since we definitely can't have these kind of behavioral risks on the roster.
 

Concord

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Yeagermeister;2797079 said:
I disagree. Taking Ellis was the best move at the time. Moss would have been caught up in Irvin's lifestyle and been suspended within a year of being drafted. Also like someone else said early in the thread he would have had an aging Aikman, and a bunch of scrubs throwing the ball to him. Moss wouldn't have lasted long in Dallas.

Like I said...I'll never agree with it.

We don't know for sure what would have happened if Moss had come here.

People always talk about what would have happened if Moss had come here like it's fact.

It might have been bad...but it might have been very good too.

We'll never know...but I for one would have loved to see him here.
 

YosemiteSam

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speedkilz88;2796219 said:
By cutting Ellis the Cowboys will save his $4.15 base salary, though he will still count $2.1 million against the cap because of the $1.5 million guarantee and a $600,000 signing bonus proration.

Ok, if some team signs him for $1.5M, that $1.5M counts against their (the signing team) cap, but it also counts against the Cowboys cap? Isn't that like double jeopardy on the NFL team side? That means $3M is charged against NFL cap space yet only $1.5M is actually being paid to Ellis since the Cowboys are only responsible for whatever is NOT paid by the signing team of the $1.5M.
 

Apollo Creed

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ConcordCowboy;2797000 said:
While the pain has long since subsided...taking Ellis over Moss is something I will never agree with.

Word. Moss was unstoppable from the world go. He would just cruise down the sideline, toss his arm up, and out jump your entire secondary.
 

Vinnie2u

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Do the 20 other teams that didn't pick Randy Moss get this much RUEage?
These players were picked ahead of Moss: Ryan Leaf, Andre Wadsworth, Curtis Enis, Grant Winstrom, Kyle Turley, Jason Peter, Terry Fair and Many more.. I say we did pretty good with Ellis... However it was time to move on...
 

tomson75

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Vinnie2u;2797253 said:
Do the 20 other teams that didn't pick Randy Moss get this much RUEage?
These players were picked ahead of Moss: Ryan Leaf, Andre Wadsworth, Curtis Enis, Grant Winstrom, Kyle Turley, Jason Peter, Terry Fair and Many more.. I say we did pretty good with Ellis... However it was time to move on...

This post gets it.
 

Alexander

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Vinnie2u;2797253 said:
Do the 20 other teams that didn't pick Randy Moss get this much RUEage?
These players were picked ahead of Moss: Ryan Leaf, Andre Wadsworth, Curtis Enis, Grant Winstrom, Kyle Turley, Jason Peter, Terry Fair and Many more.. I say we did pretty good with Ellis... However it was time to move on...

The biggest amount of rueage comes from the fact that Moss was courted heavily by Jerry Jones, we needed a WR and he was supposedly a primary target. For all we are aware, these other teams either didn't want him (took him off their boards) or simply didn't need a WR badly enough to take one in the first round.

I don't fret all that much about the pick. We can sit here and look at Moss' career and think he would have replicated his Minnesota and New England success in Dallas, but that's not so easy. Aikman wasn't a deep ball artist like Cunningham or Culpepper. Our offensive system didn't consist of throw it deep and let our WRs jump for it. We didn't have a mentor like Cris Carter on our team to keep Moss under control nor draw attention away from him.
 

Vinnie2u

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Alexander;2797264 said:
The biggest amount of rueage comes from the fact that Moss was courted heavily by Jerry Jones, we needed a WR and he was supposedly a primary target. For all we are aware, these other teams either didn't want him (took him off their boards) or simply didn't need a WR badly enough to take one in the first round.

I don't fret all that much about the pick. We can sit here and look at Moss' career and think he would have replicated his Minnesota and New England success in Dallas, but that's not so easy. Aikman wasn't Culpepper. We didn't have a mentor like Cris Carter on our team to keep Moss under control.
If Jerry wanted Moss he would of picked him.. The rueage comes from the fans that wanted Irvins replacement on the team.
 

Vinnie2u

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Do u guys realize that in the 6th round of the 2000 draft we took Mario Edwards with the 180th pick? The Pats chose Tom Brady with the 199th pick. We could of had Aikmans replacement on the team... ;)
 

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burmafrd;2796787 said:
For that poster who said we had murderers and child rapists on our team I would like for him to give examples. And these had to happen while they were ON the roster.

M'Kevon;2796826 said:
Child rapist/molestation:

Rafael Septien
Lance Rentzel
Hollywood Henderson

As well as rumors of player liaisons with under aged girls in the mid '70s, late '80s and at the "white house" during the '90s.

Murder / homicide

Dwayne Goodrich

dbair1967;2796995 said:
Pretty sure the stuff with Septian and Goodrich happened after they were no longer on the team....)

Anybody else find this weird tangent amusing?
 

Alexander

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Vinnie2u;2797267 said:
If Jerry wanted Moss he would of picked him.. The rueage comes from the fans that wanted Irvins replacement on the team.

The indications were that Jones did want Moss but feared the negative PR he would have got from the fanbase and his coaching staff at that time. He was into a massive cleanup mode and getting a solid citizen was almost as important as getting the best player. People forget about that period. All you have to do is go back and read articles from the time. The fact that Mack Brown would let Ellis babysit his children got about as much play as Ellis' actual career at North Carolina.
 

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Ellis played his best on Sundays, but he was never the impact player that's supposed to come with being a top ten pick. He lasted a long time and the Cowboys got the best they could from him. His supporting cast from 98 until recently wasn't much. THe fact that he came back form two serious injuries is a positive reflection on him. Was it time for him to go? Yes, but the pressure is on Spencer to pick up the slack. Like others here, I wish him well.
 

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Jerry The Weathervane... sometimes the wind blows softly from the South so he likes to take chances such as the last few off seasons with TO, Pac, Tank, etc. Other times when it's a cold, North wind blowing, The Weathervane finds religion and decides that high character guys are the way to build a team.

Unfortunately in April, 1998, a cold North wind was blowing, (thanks to Michael Irvin), so The Weathervane was pointing in the direction of passing on a once-in-a-lifetime player named Randy Moss.

Weather%20Vane.JPG
 

Alexander

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CaptainAmerica;2797501 said:
Jerry The Weathervane... sometimes the wind blows softly from the South so he likes to take chances such as the last few off seasons with TO, Pac, Tank, etc. Other times when it's a cold, North wind blowing The Weathervane finds religion and decides that high character guys are the way to build a team.

Unfortunately in April, 1998, a cold North wind was blowing, (thanks to Michael Irvin), so The Weathervane was pointing in the direction of passing on a once-in-a-lifetime player named Randy Moss.

Weather%20Vane.JPG

There is a phrase Mister Jones uses often: "As I stand here now,".

At any particular moment, he can think a certain way and it is usually reactionary to the current climate. That's not exactly a great quality to have.
 

MarionBarberThe4th

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The Cowboys just cant use you. You might be able to play for someone, but it wont be Dallas. You're cut.
 
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