Cowboyszoners over valuing our players

[Verdict]

At times, this place is a riot when posters are putting value on players without regard for what sets the price. There are 3 factors that affect this and none has to do with the quality of the player. 1) the cap rule regarding how much each team will spend, 2) the amount of cap space by the teams shopping and 3), the availability of players by needed positions.

Another factor is how much cheap labor does a team have? All of these pbers in their 1st contracts are huge bargains, temporary, but what is permanent in the NFL? There also is the factor of competition for players, especially within divisions. If I can help myself and hurt them at the same time, I am wunderkind.

You're a GM with money like IND or any of the top 5 cap space team. You need a Safety, how many that can step in and upgrade your secondary are there available? There aren't enough good players at this position to put 32 on teams, let alone 64, so those 5 stars are getting a hell of a lot of money. And HOU, the other AFC South playoff team, is a top 5 in cap space.

The Cowboys have refused to get into the first feeding frenzy of FA (alliteration award due here) because the money is stupid being thrown at these players because of those 3 factors. I would be very surprised if the Cowboys are willing to pay Thomas what those top 5's will pay him and he will be an early prize in FA. There are teams with enough cap to make him the top paid S in the NFL and they don't care if they're overpaying by a few million, they've got money to burn.

All of that is 100 percent accurate. The Cowboys should not get in a bidding war over a player like that because even though market value for the player is what it is, it is higher than it makes sense for the Cowboys to pay.

That is where the rubber meets the road. If you guys don't think Tank knows what his market value is on the open market then you are smoking crack. The question is should the Cowboys pay market value or not and if not, is Tank willing to take a little but less to remain a Cowboy.

The open market value on Tank might approach $23 million per year. Anyone want to pay that? I personally don't think it's a good idea for the Cowboys to do that. It's a cap wrecker and will cost us a player (or two) that we want to keep somewhere down the road.

We used good fiscal judgment on Hitchens and it was a great decision in retrospect. Hopefully we do that again this offseason.

Lee is another one of these decisions. Do you go with sentiment or do you look out for your team? The Dez and Hitchens treatment indicate that the team is starting to act more like the Patriots and make the hard calls that need to be made.

Cutting a guy like Lee might allow you to overpay for Tank if that's what you really feel like you have to do. The cap is a finite resource. Personally I would rather overpay a little on Tank than pay Lee based on past performance when his recent performance says he's done.

 

[CouchCoach]

I think I actually agree with you here. I would probably include Byron in the A list but I could easily be wrong there. Point being, I think that we, as fans often overvalue. On the other hand, there have been many times where the fans have pointed out shortcomings and they have proven to be correct. The thing is, the Pats have pretty much shown the league how to do this in the modern NFL. We always here about how we want to do it like the Pats but if that's really the case, then it would seem like they would have to be able to walk away from bad contracts, even if they are talented players.

JMO

And NE looks at a bad contract as any that prevents them from making the necessary moves they need to make each season to reload. It helps that they have the HC with the least amount of loyalty in the league. Belichick isn't "what have you done for me lately", he is all "what can you do for me now"?

We are not the only fandom that wishes we could do it like they do, all 31 wish that. But only one can and has proven that year after year and this one will be no different.

 

[Verdict]

I think I actually agree with you here. I would probably include Byron in the A list but I could easily be wrong there. Point being, I think that we, as fans often overvalue. On the other hand, there have been many times where the fans have pointed out shortcomings and they have proven to be correct. The thing is, the Pats have pretty much shown the league how to do this in the modern NFL. We always here about how we want to do it like the Pats but if that's really the case, then it would seem like they would have to be able to walk away from bad contracts, even if they are talented players.

JMO

Fans here like the idea of being like the Patriots but in reality they are just like the old Jerry and then complain when we don't get the results they want. Hard decisions have to be made.

 

[LatinMind]

It is clear that Cowboyszoners over value our players as a general rule. We literally can't lose anyone, or the sky will fall!!!

We are finally at the spot where we should want to keep most of the guys on this team provided that the money is right. But you can't pay everyone what they want to stay and still field a team two or three years from now.

Williams needed to go. The cap number didn't match production.

Hurns was expected to be more of an impact player than he was, but him leaving won't hurt us.

Lee is done. Letting him go saves a ton of cap.

We need to try to keep the core of this team together, but not everyone who is a top performer will be retained unless some of them sign team friendly deals. That's why I don't expect to see Beasley back in a Cowboys uniform next year eaither.

I think Dak, Zeke, Amari, Jaylon, are locks to stick around.

That may not be the case with Byron, Tank, and Collins (RT). Probably at least one of those guys is no longer a Cowboy soon.

I wish people could be a little bit more objective in their evaluation of our roster. To them every Cowboy is top 5, when in reality few are. Maybe Fredbeard, Martin, Zeke and Tyron (at one time). The rest probably not.

Lawrence should be priority. 5 yrs 100mil 35SB 50 guranteed
2019 caphit 10 base guranteed 7mil pro rated SB 17mil caphit
17mil of his 50mil guranteed paid in yr 1

Amari Cooper restructure his 5th yr into SB
5yr 85mil 20mil SB 35mil guranteed
2019 caphit 5mil base guranteed 4 mil prorated SB 9mil caphit

Dak Prescott 6yr 108mil 30mil SB 55mil guranteed
2018 caphit 10mil guranteed 6mil pro rated 16mil caphit

Byron Jones 5yr 55mil 15milSB 23mil guranteed
2018 caphit 5mil guranteed 3mil prorated SB 8mil caphit

Elliot’s deal is going to be the confusing one to do I think because he still has guaranteed Money left. But I think it’ll be like Gurleys.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

And NE looks at a bad contract as any that prevents them from making the necessary moves they need to make each season to reload. It helps that they have the HC with the least amount of loyalty in the league. Belichick isn't "what have you done for me lately", he is all "what can you do for me now"?

We are not the only fandom that wishes we could do it like they do, all 31 wish that. But only one can and has proven that year after year and this one will be no different.

I generally agree with that Coach.

 

[CouchCoach]

All of that is 100 percent accurate. The Cowboys should not get in a bidding war over a player like that because even though market value for the player is what it is, it is higher than it makes sense for the Cowboys to pay.

That is where the rubber meets the road. If you guys don't think Tank knows what his market value is on the open market then you are smoking crack. The question is should the Cowboys pay market value or not and if not, is Tank willing to take a little but less to remain a Cowboy.

The open market value on Tank might approach $23 million per year. Anyone want to pay that? I personally don't think it's a good idea for the Cowboys to do that. It's a cap wrecker and will cost us a player (or two) that we want to keep somewhere down the road.

We used good fiscal judgment on Hitchens and it was a great decision in retrospect. Hopefully we do that again this offseason.

Lee is another one of these decisions. Do you go with sentiment or do you look out for your team? The Dez and Hitchens treatment indicate that the team is starting to act more like the Patriots and make the hard calls that need to be made.

Cutting a guy like Lee might allow you to overpay for Tank if that's what you really feel like you have to do. The cap is a finite resource. Personally I would rather overpay a little on Tank than pay Lee based on past performance when his recent performance says he's done.

There is also that other element with a talent like Lawrence that the Cowboys do not have to consider as much, the cap space of the other East teams. If they had the space, the damned Giants would go at him hard like they did in getting Canty away from the Cowboys.

Or the Texans might let Clowney walk and pick up Lawrence? Dunno, but if they let him hit the market, the price would be higher than they will pay by keeping him and he'd be one of the first signed. That's why I don't think Thomas signs with the Cowboys, too much cap space at the top and too much need for a player like that.

 

[jazzcat22]

It is clear that Cowboyszoners over value our players as a general rule. We literally can't lose anyone, or the sky will fall!!!

We are finally at the spot where we should want to keep most of the guys on this team provided that the money is right. But you can't pay everyone what they want to stay and still field a team two or three years from now.

Williams needed to go. The cap number didn't match production.

Hurns was expected to be more of an impact player than he was, but him leaving won't hurt us.

Lee is done. Letting him go saves a ton of cap.

We need to try to keep the core of this team together, but not everyone who is a top performer will be retained unless some of them sign team friendly deals. That's why I don't expect to see Beasley back in a Cowboys uniform next year eaither.

I think Dak, Zeke, Amari, Jaylon, are locks to stick around.

That may not be the case with Byron, Tank, and Collins (RT). Probably at least one of those guys is no longer a Cowboy soon.

I wish people could be a little bit more objective in their evaluation of our roster. To them every Cowboy is top 5, when in reality few are. Maybe Fredbeard, Martin, Zeke and Tyron (at one time). The rest probably not.

But on the other side, many zoners, well, most, under value our players, and everyone sucks but a few.

And they should be a little more, well, a lot more objective to that thinking as well. Can't have a pro bowl player everywhere. There needs to be role players also.

Can't disagree on your thoughts though of the players mentioned.

 

[TwentyOne]

It is clear that Cowboyszoners over value our players as a general rule. We literally can't lose anyone, or the sky will fall!!!

We are finally at the spot where we should want to keep most of the guys on this team provided that the money is right. But you can't pay everyone what they want to stay and still field a team two or three years from now.

Williams needed to go. The cap number didn't match production.

Hurns was expected to be more of an impact player than he was, but him leaving won't hurt us.

Lee is done. Letting him go saves a ton of cap.

We need to try to keep the core of this team together, but not everyone who is a top performer will be retained unless some of them sign team friendly deals. That's why I don't expect to see Beasley back in a Cowboys uniform next year eaither.

I think Dak, Zeke, Amari, Jaylon, are locks to stick around.

That may not be the case with Byron, Tank, and Collins (RT). Probably at least one of those guys is no longer a Cowboy soon.

I wish people could be a little bit more objective in their evaluation of our roster. To them every Cowboy is top 5, when in reality few are. Maybe Fredbeard, Martin, Zeke and Tyron (at one time). The rest probably not.

Thanks alot for your post!

In the end its always hard to part ways. Humans are emotional beings. And it is hard to be in an exposed position and make unpopular decissions.

 

[3rd_n_inches]

Someone somewhere has to get paid. I think we overpaid for Sean Lee looking at the past few years plus he has never been healthy consecutively BUT that doesn’t mean I am against what Dallas is giving him. You have to look at the whole roster and not cherry pick players.

 

[Diehardblues]

Speak for yourself, I want to win. I have no problem criticizing or calling out players who I think don’t pull their weight or who are a liability to the team. If a guy isn’t good or is just average then that’s what he is, it doesn’t mean I don’t want them to succeed, it’s just calling it how it is or giving my opinion.

I understand what you mean by most fans only watching their own teams but that’s how they get trapped in their little Cowboys bubble. Same reason there are always people complaining that we’re the only team thatngets bad calls, they have no idea because most of them don’t watch enough other teams play to know that it’s league wide. New Orleans just happened to get as much attention as it did because it was a nationally televised game with Super Bowl implications but calls/non calls like that happen every game to every team. Anyways, I digress.

i wasn’t saying you did . Your post just spurred this thought . Thanks

 

[aria]

i wasn’t saying you did . Your post just spurred this thought . Thanks

Likewise, I didn’t mean to imply that.

 

[Verdict]

Thanks alot for your post!

In the end its always hard to part ways. Humans are emotional beings. And it is hard to be in an exposed position and make unpopular decissions.

Well said.

 

[Verdict]

But on the other side, many zoners, well, most, under value our players, and everyone sucks but a few.

And they should be a little more, well, a lot more objective to that thinking as well. Can't have a pro bowl player everywhere. There needs to be role players also.

Can't disagree on your thoughts though of the players mentioned.

Well said.

 

[Verdict]

Lawrence should be priority. 5 yrs 100mil 35SB 50 guranteed
2019 caphit 10 base guranteed 7mil pro rated SB 17mil caphit
17mil of his 50mil guranteed paid in yr 1

Amari Cooper restructure his 5th yr into SB
5yr 85mil 20mil SB 35mil guranteed
2019 caphit 5mil base guranteed 4 mil prorated SB 9mil caphit

Dak Prescott 6yr 108mil 30mil SB 55mil guranteed
2018 caphit 10mil guranteed 6mil pro rated 16mil caphit

Byron Jones 5yr 55mil 15milSB 23mil guranteed
2018 caphit 5mil guranteed 3mil prorated SB 8mil caphit

Elliot’s deal is going to be the confusing one to do I think because he still has guaranteed Money left. But I think it’ll be like Gurleys.

There is no doubt that the team can do exactly what you have stated and manage. But they are all too shelf contracts. What are you going to do when you add Jaylon and Zeke to that mix? That will be 7 mega deals and eats a hell of a big chunk of your cap up.

It would sort of surprise me if we paid market value on all 7 of those players. Something tells me we will sign most but not all of those players and move on from one or more.

While we CAN resign all 7, it is likely that at some point someone we want to keep is going to walk later on due to cap reasons.

 

[cern]

their agents value them more than zoners. but that's their job. fortunately Stephen, ever the parsimonious one, will keep things in check.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

It is clear that Cowboyszoners over value our players as a general rule. We literally can't lose anyone, or the sky will fall!!!

We are finally at the spot where we should want to keep most of the guys on this team provided that the money is right. But you can't pay everyone what they want to stay and still field a team two or three years from now.

Williams needed to go. The cap number didn't match production.

Hurns was expected to be more of an impact player than he was, but him leaving won't hurt us.

Lee is done. Letting him go saves a ton of cap.

We need to try to keep the core of this team together, but not everyone who is a top performer will be retained unless some of them sign team friendly deals. That's why I don't expect to see Beasley back in a Cowboys uniform next year eaither.

I think Dak, Zeke, Amari, Jaylon, are locks to stick around.

That may not be the case with Byron, Tank, and Collins (RT). Probably at least one of those guys is no longer a Cowboy soon.

I wish people could be a little bit more objective in their evaluation of our roster. To them every Cowboy is top 5, when in reality few are. Maybe Fredbeard, Martin, Zeke and Tyron (at one time). The rest probably not.

Literally no one has said let's keep everyone.

What people have said is you're being...not smart...in your campaign to let twenty something pro bowlers leave after we took time to get ot know these players and develop them.

2nd contracts are big and expensive and usually worth it for your own guys.

Please stop.

 

[cern]

And NE looks at a bad contract as any that prevents them from making the necessary moves they need to make each season to reload. It helps that they have the HC with the least amount of loyalty in the league. Belichick isn't "what have you done for me lately", he is all "what can you do for me now"?

We are not the only fandom that wishes we could do it like they do, all 31 wish that. But only one can and has proven that year after year and this one will be no different.

And NE looks at a bad contract as any that prevents them from making the necessary moves they need to make each season to reload. It helps that they have the HC with the least amount of loyalty in the league. Belichick isn't "what have you done for me lately", he is all "what can you do for me now"?

We are not the only fandom that wishes we could do it like they do, all 31 wish that. But only one can and has proven that year after year and this one will be no different.

since 2000, 9 superbowls and 6 wins for the pats and the greatest coach in history. it astounds me that any team would do things any other way than the pats do them.

 

[cowboyec]

gotta pay somebody......could be some of our own....could be somebody elses....but you gotta pay somebody.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

There is no doubt that the team can do exactly what you have stated and manage. But they are all too shelf contracts. What are you going to do when you add Jaylon and Zeke to that mix? That will be 7 mega deals and eats a hell of a big chunk of your cap up.

It would sort of surprise me if we paid market value on all 7 of those players. Something tells me we will sign most but not all of those players and move on from one or more.

While we CAN resign all 7, it is likely that at some point someone we want to keep is going to walk later on due to cap reasons.

There is no way we do that. In the end, it would cost us any chance to win long term. Heck, short term would be a stretch, IMO.

 

[Verdict]

Literally no one has said let's keep everyone.

What people have said is you're being...not smart...in your campaign to let twenty something pro bowlers leave after we took time to get ot know these players and develop them.

2nd contracts are big and expensive and usually worth it for your own guys.

Please stop.

I don't think anyone has said that we don't want Tank around. What has been said is that there is a cap figure, over which, we should move on from the player.

You may disagree with that statement, and believe we can pay him whatever because "he's worth any amount he wants to ask for" but I can't endorse such a plan.

If you are not of that mindset then the odds are we view it that same way but may have a different idea of where the drop dead number should be. That's ok too.

If you don't fit into any of the above categories maybe you just want to argue with me. I'm all for spirited debate. I'm just not into meaningless arguing over semantics, minutia, or stupidity.

I'll discuss anything you want to discuss but it is pointless to have a discussion if you just want to argue for the sake of arguing. It seems as though that you follow me around on this message board arguing with literally anything and everything I say no matter what it is about.

I don't generally block people who I don't agree with (and I, incidentally, seldom agree with anything you say) but I think keeping an open mind and hearing alternative views is important, even if I don't agree with them, because sometimes in retrospect they turn out to be right.

My views from time to time may not be popular, and I'm ok with that. I'm ok with you not agreeing with anything I have to say, but I don't plan on playing a game of tit for tat back and forth with you over nothing.

I respect your right to disagree with me and your opinion, even though it is often different from mine. But let's keep the discussions meaningful. If you just want to follow me around and play some meaningless game, I'm out on that.