Dak in perspective

ChldsPlay said:
If that's what you think, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I do not view stats as "unbiased" in any way shape or form.
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You are dodging the issue... what our perspectives are in regards to stats is secondary.

You are diminishing what Dak has accomplished this year by giving the majority of the credit to the personnel around him.

Unless you are willing to apply your same standard of measurement to other QBs-- then you are being fickle in your analysis.

So- in your opinion-- is Dak's season more a credit to him or the players around him? What rookie QB would you point to as being worthy of acclaim?
 
Name me one team that doesn't have help?
New England 4 Pro Bowlers
Dallas 5 Pro Bowlers
Green Bay 3 Pro Bowlers, but there should have been another with Jordy Nelson
Raiders 7 Pro Bowlers
Steelers 4 Pro Bowlers
You win with talent unless you're a cheating franchise like New England.
So Dak having talent on his team does not diminish his superior accomplishments this year.
 
Hawkeye19 said:
You are dodging the issue... what our perspectives are in regards to stats is secondary.

You are diminishing what Dak has accomplished this year by giving the majority of the credit to the personnel around him.

Unless you are willing to apply your same standard of measurement to other QBs-- then you are being fickle in your analysis.

So- in your opinion-- is Dak's season more a credit to him or the players around him? What rookie QB would you point to as being worthy of acclaim?
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Who said I wasn't willing to apply the same standard to other QBs? I consider all those other factors when analyzing other QBs as well. I give Dak a lot of credit for how well he has played this year, especially considering he is a rookie. But I also recognize that he had had a lot of help. More than all those other rookie QBs listed, and far more than most. My analysis is not secondary to stats for my analysis. Stats are merely one of many variables that factor into an analysis. Anything else is making them something they are not.

Both Dak and his teammates are responsible. I do think there are a good number of QBs in this league (quality starters) that could have similar or netter success with this team. That still means he is performing well, all things considered. If he was playing poorly the team would fail, despite how strong the rest of the players are. Dak has shown great promise, but he isn't doing everything alone.
 
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ChldsPlay said:
Who said I wasn't willing to apply the same standard to other QBs? I consider all those other factors when analyzing other QBs as well. I give Dak a lot of credit for how well he has played this year, especially considering he is a rookie. But I also recognize that he had had a lot of help. More than all those other rookie QBs listed, and far more than most. My analysis is not secondary to stats for my analysis. Stats are merely one of many variables that factor into an analysis. Anything else is making them something they are not.

Both Dak and his teammates are responsible. I do think there are a good number of QBs in this league (quality starters) that could have similar or netter success with this team. That still means he is performing well, all things considered. If he was playing poorly the team would fail, despite how strong the rest of the players are. Dak has shown great promise, but he isn't doing everything alone.
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Name all the starters that would have had better success. Lets break it down.
 
Clove said:
Name me one team that doesn't have help?
New England 4 Pro Bowlers
Dallas 5 Pro Bowlers
Green Bay 3 Pro Bowlers, but there should have been another with Jordy Nelson
Raiders 7 Pro Bowlers
Steelers 4 Pro Bowlers
You win with talent unless you're a cheating franchise like New England.
So Dak having talent on his team does not diminish his superior accomplishments this year.
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If you could plug in any QB to a great team and have similar success, then why do teams bother to invest in the QB position at all? Do you know how expensive a franchise QB is? You can plug any ol' Joe in there and use that money to add elite talent.
 
windjc said:
Name all the starters that would have had better success. Lets break it down.
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Better - Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Stafford, Ryan, Big Ben, Carr, Luck, Rivers, Romo, Wilson, Cousins.

Similar - Dalton, Flacco, Palmer (maybe, I haven't really watched him much this year to see what his issue is), Newton, Mariota, Smith, Manning (50/50 - not sure he can help himself).
 
JoeyBoy718 said:
If you could plug in any QB to a great team and have similar success, then why do teams bother to invest in the QB position at all? Do you know how expensive a franchise QB is? You can plug any ol' Joe in there and use that money to add elite talent.
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It's not just any QB, there is a minimum quality QB needed.

Finding a franchise QB is easier and more likely than building a team out of a lot of very good players. Some teams can't get close to doing either.
 
ChldsPlay said:
Who said I wasn't willing to apply the same standard to other QBs? I consider all those other factors when analyzing other QBs as well. I give Dak a lot of credit for how well he has played this year, especially considering he is a rookie. But I also recognize that he had had a lot of help. More than all those other rookie QBs listed, and far more than most. My analysis is not secondary to stats for my analysis. Stats are merely one of many variables that factor into an analysis. Anything else is making them something they are not.

Both Dak and his teammates are responsible. I do think there are a good number of QBs in this league (quality starters) that could have similar or netter success with this team. That still means he is performing well, all things considered. If he was playing poorly the team would fail, despite how strong the rest of the players are. Dak has shown great promise, but he isn't doing everything alone.
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And I never claimed he has done it alone either-- football is a team sport. But I stop short from the assumptions you make about other QBs either succeeding or failing on some other team playing with different personnel.

Too subjective. It's the argument people make to claim that Barry Sanders was a better RB than Emmitt. "If Barry had Emmitt's OL then he would have set the all time mark."

Barry Sanders got tired of losing and quit. Emmitt played until he had nothing left. THAT is why Emmitt set the all time mark... he had the heart of a champion.

Dak deserves the credit for handling his responsibilities and position better than any rookie in the history of the NFL. The stats bear that out, and so do the quotes from his teammates and coaches.
 
Hawkeye19 said:
And I never claimed he has done it alone either-- football is a team sport. But I stop short from the assumptions you make about other QBs either succeeding or failing on some other team playing with different personnel.

Too subjective. It's the argument people make to claim that Barry Sanders was a better RB than Emmitt. "If Barry had Emmitt's OL then he would have set the all time mark."

Barry Sanders got tired of losing and quit. Emmitt played until he had nothing left. THAT is why Emmitt set the all time mark... he had the heart of a champion.

Dak deserves the credit for handling his responsibilities and position better than any rookie in the history of the NFL. The stats bear that out, and so do the quotes from his teammates and coaches.
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The stats Do Not bear that out. I am not sure you understand how stats work. They are an indicator of how he has performed in 2016 with this team against those specific opponents. It gives data for one specific set of circumstances. That is all. That is all anyone's stats say.

Any reasonable analysis has to consider ALL factors, including the guys around a players, their opponents, coaching, health, actually watching the play and seeing what is happening, etc.

Kind of like all these people that want to completely dismiss RG3 because it ruins their perfect little picture of Dak being a sure thing and the best ever. They talk of gimmick offenses, blah blah blah. Just as RG3's season can be analyzed on more than the stats, so can Dak's. Any analysis that only considers stats is useless, and quite frankly, dumb.
 
ChldsPlay said:
The stats Do Not bear that out. I am not sure you understand how stats work. They are an indicator of how he has performed in 2016 with this team against those specific opponents. It gives data for one specific set of circumstances. That is all. That is all anyone's stats say.

Any reasonable analysis has to consider ALL factors, including the guys around a players, their opponents, coaching, health, actually watching the play and seeing what is happening, etc.

Kind of like all these people that want to completely dismiss RG3 because it ruins their perfect little picture of Dak being a sure thing and the best ever. They talk of gimmick offenses, blah blah blah. Just as RG3's season can be analyzed on more than the stats, so can Dak's. Any analysis that only considers stats is useless, and quite frankly, dumb.
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RG 3 had an amazing rookie year... and I am not dismissive of him at all. The guy got hurt and has been unable to replicate his success since that year. The same thing could happen to Dak for all we know.

And I never said stats were the "only" means of analysis-- don't put words in my mouth. I said they are intended to be an objective form of analysis-- which they are.

And Dak's stats most certainly do bear out his success. It is amazing to me that you continue to withold credit from him for no other reason than the talent he had around him.

In your opinion-- who is the best rookie QB of all time? I am sure we can find some reasons why their success wasn't all that much to do with them.

We are going around and around the same mountain-- so I will agree to disagree with you on this one. Cheers!
 
Hawkeye19 said:
RG 3 had an amazing rookie year... and I am not dismissive of him at all. The guy got hurt and has been unable to replicate his success since that year. The same thing could happen to Dak for all we know.

And I never said stats were the "only" means of analysis-- don't put words in my mouth. I said they are intended to be an objective form of analysis-- which they are.

And Dak's stats most certainly do bear out his success. It is amazing to me that you continue to withold credit from him for no other reason than the talent he had around him.

In your opinion-- who is the best rookie QB of all time? I am sure we can find some reasons why their success wasn't all that much to do with them.

We are going around and around the same mountain-- so I will agree to disagree with you on this one. Cheers!
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Stats are not supposed to be a form of analysis. They are a tool FOR analysis.

I am not withholding credit. I have said Dak has played well. Stats are one indicator of that. But best stats != best performance. Never has and never will. I agree that from a statistical perspective, and only that perspective, Dak has, or is having, the best rookie season. That doesn't mean he's played the best.

I cannot even begin to analyze the best QB of all time, far too many of them are way before my time, and even the greats I grew up with (Marino, Elway, Aikman - not saying they were great rookies) were when I was too young and did not have any semblance of football knowledge to critique and analyze such things. And there is so much information to weigh that it's not something I care to even contemplate.
 
ChldsPlay said:
Better - Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Stafford, Ryan, Big Ben, Carr, Luck, Rivers, Romo, Wilson, Cousins.

Similar - Dalton, Flacco, Palmer (maybe, I haven't really watched him much this year to see what his issue is), Newton, Mariota, Smith, Manning (50/50 - not sure he can help himself).
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Wow!

You really think little of Prescott.
 
1. Marino's era was the era you could basically spear WRs over the middle and the DBs could get away with lots of contact. Let's not carry the stats over generations.

Peyton Manning saw an equivalent style of defense, minus the spearing, with his unprecedented Denver offense year and that Seahawks defense totally shut him down.

2.

Dak is NOT a run first QB and he's a pocket QB. That being said, he's a shotgun QB in passing downs and Linehan, as Cowboys Nation, points out is not using him in the traditional 3-5 and 7 dropback passing. They've used him minimally in such situations, so there are some limitations there.

3.

Linehan is getting all sorts of matchups and is probably going to get looked at for a HC job.

4.

The one argument you can make as of now is Dak is the perfect fit in what the offensive coaches are trying to do.
 
ChldsPlay said:
You think little of all of those QBs? To be at that level as a rookie is very impressive (Mariota is pretty impressive as a 2nd year guy as well).
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Flacco would do as well in the Dallas system as Prescott?

Your entire post lost credibility just on that note.
 
MichaelWinicki said:
Flacco would do as well in the Dallas system as Prescott?

Your entire post lost credibility just on that note.
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I don't understand all the hate on Flacco.. Dallas would be contending if Flacco was starting.. he's actually the reason they won their last SB. He played lights out in the playoffs..
 
khiladi said:
I don't understand all the hate on Flacco.. Dallas would be contending if Flacco was starting.. he's actually the reason they won their last SB. He played lights out in the playoffs..
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Don't hate him.

He's just a meh QB who had a hot run in the playoffs one year– no more no less.

He has a career 84.6 passer rating and has averaged 6.9 YPA for his career.

If you looked up "Average Starting NFL QB" it would show a picture of Joe Flacco.
 
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