Dallas FA signings need fixing

[jterrell]

Sheard is not what the Cowboys do unles you are going to try to convince me that Carroll and Moore are comparable players to a Sheard. We haven't signed anyone of his caliber. People were actually lobbying for him to be signed in 2015. He had 24 sacks in four years with the Browns.

You literally are proving my point. Bennett was a short term rental. Not a big ticket FA that will hurt the cap down the road. The fact we wouldn't want him or we drafted him is besides the point. It's an example of a quality franchise not eschewing players from outside the organization to improve their team, instead, solely focusing on the draft as the way to improve. Find those mid-level players that help the team and aren't cap anchors 4 years from now.

Yeah, I'd gladly trade an extra 4th or 5th round comp pick for a guy like Bennie Logan or Micah Hyde. Anyone saying they'd rather have a 5th round comp pick instead of a productive player who could help this team now really isn't looking at this objectively.

No, you are making my points, lol.

Dallas signs Sheard type FA EVERY OTHER YEAR.
Not yearly. In 2016 they signed Cedric Thornton to a 17m(9m gtd) deal. They just missed on him in conversion to Marinelli's system. --likely why they went with Paea this year.
Sheard only started 9 games in NE over 2 years but he was a key 3rd down pass rusher and had 13 sacks over 2 seasons. He had only 5 sacks in the SB year and made 6m.
We'd be furious with that production versus pay here.

NE is on a tiny window. They are willing to give up picks. DAL is not and thus is not.

Bennett turned into essentially Tarik Cohen for the Bears. A key offensive piece as a rookie.
Dallas turned letting Barry Church walk into Xavier Woods and (another) 5th round pick.

It's easy to see which tack you should take as a young emerging team as well as which track makes sense for an aging team with HOF QB near retirement.

 

[jterrell]

This team was 13-3. This new bizarre angle that they weren't or shouldn't have been expected to be a SB contender a year after going 13-3 is just more BS from the excuse everything the FO does crowd.

So just so I get this straight. Mid to lower round comp picks are more important than actual players that could help you now and in the near future. And that despite coming off a 13-3 season, the expectation this season was and should have been that this team wasn't a real SB contender and in fact, we should have looked at them as a rebuilding team.

LOL. I give up.

A 13-3 team that had known holes and didn't win a playoff game and was facing suspension for Zeke.
Yes, you should give yup if you think Dallas should trade off 4th or 5th round picks to rent a back up tight end.

As the old bull said to the young bull lets walk down there....

They got to 13 wins with this philosophy and are right to stick by it and build.

Anything else was would be immensely stupid.

 

[Sydla]

A 13-3 team that had known holes and didn't win a playoff game and was facing suspension for Zeke.
Yes, you should give yup if you think Dallas should trade off 4th or 5th round picks to rent a back up tight end.

As the old bull said to the young bull lets walk down there....

They got to 13 wins with this philosophy and are right to stick by it and build.

Anything else was would be immensely stupid.

Yes, that's what I wanted. A back up TE.

You can't even debate honestly. I'll let you have the last word.

 

[Plankton]

Pats have largely benefited from having the best (defensive) coach and QB in the league.
And from having guys sign cheaply with them in Free Agency as expected champs.
The Pats are one of the cheapest teams in the league. Pretty much every player there is a bargain or is gone.

So what free agents were the key players for the Pats last year?

LeGarrette Blount
Chris Hogan
Martellus Bennett - just realized he was a trade acquisition.
Danny Amendola

 

[cowboyblue22]

This team was 13-3. This new bizarre angle that they weren't or shouldn't have been expected to be a SB contender a year after going 13-3 is just more BS from the excuse everything the FO does crowd.

So just so I get this straight. Mid to lower round comp picks are more important than actual players that could help you now and in the near future. And that despite coming off a 13-3 season, the expectation this season was and should have been that this team wasn't a real SB contender and in fact, we should have looked at them as a rebuilding team.

LOL. I give up.

if they are not close to being a superbowl now when will they be they were 13 and 3 last year and at this point are a 500 ballclub that hasn't beaten a team with a winning record

 

[Stash]

if they are not close to being a superbowl now when will they be they were 13 and 3 last year and at this point are a 500 ballclub that hasn't beaten a team with a winning record

"It's a process..."

 

[jterrell]

LeGarrette Blount --- Blount was traded for in 2013, let walk in free agency, resigned after he got a DUI and pot possession in 2014. Let walk again in free agency this year. But he had a career year in 2016 and technically I guess was a FA.
Chris Hogan --- 38 catches and 4 TDS? that's key?
Martellus Bennett --- just realized he was a trade acquisition.
Danny Amendola --- My Tech guy from The Woodlands has been great for them but not in 2016. He was injured and only had 23 catches.

Edelman was their primary WR with 98 receptions.

 

[jterrell]

if they are not close to being a superbowl now when will they be they were 13 and 3 last year and at this point are a 500 ballclub that hasn't beaten a team with a winning record

Are you talking/posting yourself through this?

They are not a serious super bowl contender right now. Weren't as good as 13-3 looked and going forward we knew we had areas to build-- DB/DL specifically. Also knew we weren't resigning Leary or Church.
They will be when they get better which is what young players do. Get better. It's why you rely on them and not overpaying guys who are getting worse.

You dont sell out in free agency to go win a super bowl behind a 2nd year QB. That's how you end up wasting his prime being in cap hell robbing peter to pay paul... see Tony Romo.

 

[Sydla]

Are you talking/posting yourself through this?

They are not a serious super bowl contender right now. Weren't as good as 13-3 looked and going forward we knew we had areas to build-- DB/DL specifically. Also knew we weren't resigning Leary or Church.
They will be when they get better which is what young players do. Get better. It's why you rely on them and not overpaying guys who are getting worse.

You dont sell out in free agency to go win a super bowl behind a 2nd year QB. That's how you end up wasting his prime being in cap hell robbing peter to pay paul... see Tony Romo.

Which is something most people, who have criticized their FA plan, never, ever said the Cowboys should do.

 

[jterrell]

Yes, that's what I wanted. A back up TE.

You can't even debate honestly. I'll let you have the last word.

That's what THEY DID. Bennett was a back up TE. He became the starter and really helped them but they gave up a top 150 pick for him for 1 season.
And it made total sense because they had Brady and Belichek.

Dallas is not in that situation which is what makes the debate so goofy.
Young, great drafting team... who in their right mind complains about relying on draft??

 

[Alexander]

The OP answered his own question in his first line.

Giants were FA kings in 2016... and look at their record now?

You pay big money and seldom get the reward for that. Its why SJones has decided to only grab lower tier bargains and hope for the best.
Dallas currently has a couple FAs playing well. Brice Butler and Jonathon Cooper but the focus is on 3 guys they cut that cost them nearly nothing... even though those players were merely signed so they could draft and develop players.

Who exactly is Dallas "developing" at the expense of keeping FAs out of their way?

Home grown "talent" like Chaz Green, Jeff Heath, Terrance Williams anyone else?

Carroll isn't here because he likely had a suspension coming and was being outplayed by Lewis.

Up until that point, he was viewed as a high character player and an equal to Carr. Their evaluation of Carroll was clearly wrong.

Moore isn't here because 5 tackles and no sacks want enough to warrant keeping over younger guys with more upside.

Moore was a poor character risk that was honestly not even worth having around after he got suspended. Yet we hung onto him and even were talking him up as he was coming off suspension. Now it is about keeping "upside"? Who? No, it is more about him getting into trouble off the field just as much.

Xavier Woods, Jourdan Lewis ... those are real, long-term answers. FA provides quick fixes and often fools gold.

One player is mired behind Jeff Heath. The other got pressed into service because Carroll got concussed and simply took the job. I guess we need to wait on Heath to get hurt.

Any rookie you have, you basically have for three years unless they are a top pick. So getting them a fair and honest shot is the best way to make that philosophy work.

Instead we signed "insurance". Bad insurance. Like the General when you really could have used Allstate.

Its tough to draft your own, pay them what they require and also spend in FA.

So teams tend to do one or the other well.

FA teams tends to have those 2-3 year windows.

There continues to be this idea that you either spend out the wazoo or you completely ignore FA and simply draft better. But then again, when the team does not draft better, the draft is nothing but a crap shoot anyways. Which is it?

The answer is there is no answer. No team gets it completely. But at the end of the day, the talent that does stick had better make you win more. Draft or free agent. Or trade, which we rarely do.

Even the most staunch supporters of drafting and developing your own, like the Packers and Steelers, will toe dip in free agency/trade and rarely will you see them completely blow it like Dallas did with this crop. They also tend to do a better job of finding fits and then developing those fits. Dallas and development, well, not to their level yet.

It is not an either/or position. And those teams are consistent. They are not one good year, one bad year.

One thing I will never get is people mistake our own caution in free agency being blamed on anything else other than our own foolishness in signing bad talent five or so years ago. It might be nice to pretend it was all about being smart and learning the philosophy. The cap punishment was a huge part of it and the penny pinching was a side effect they can live with for the time being.

I don't care if they want to continue with this philosophy. Be as cheap as you want. Just don't try to sell me on bad players who regardless of how cheap they were does not dismiss the fact they were poor evaluations to begin with.

 

[jterrell]

Which is something most people, who have criticized their FA plan, never, ever said the Cowboys should do.

People who have criticized their FA plan DESIGN are just wrong. it's not hard to see what they are doing is working.

Now the exact players added... that's fair game. But process is above reproach.

By all means lets discount 4th round picks... after all we only used one to draft DAK PRESCOTT.
We should certainly trade off Dak for 1 year of Poe... that's genius.

It sucks watching them lose so I understand that bit of it.
But you can use the proper process and lose games.

 

[Sydla]

That's what THEY DID. Bennett was a back up TE. He became the starter and really helped them but they gave up a top 150 pick for him for 1 season.
And it made total sense because they had Brady and Belichek.

Dallas is not in that situation which is what makes the debate so goofy.
Young, great drafting team... who in their right mind complains about relying on draft??

Bennett was AN EXAMPLE of New England going outside the organization for help and not relying solely on the draft. If you really thought I was suggesting the Cowboys should have gone out and gotten Bennett, that would explain a lot.

You know who criticizes their plan? Fans of a team that sees a defense that continues to struggle because they've whiffed on their crap bin FA signings and some pretty big failures/duds in the draft on the defensive side.

It's pretty simple. This team is better, today, with Logan as the 1 tech and Hyde at SS. Further, the future cap implications are minimal, the Cowboys still could have drafted heavy at CB, and would still have their high picks in future drafts to select more defense and still build that way and continue to keep the overall roster young and not aging.

 

[Sydla]

People who have criticized their FA plan DESIGN are just wrong. it's not hard to see what they are doing is working.

Now the exact players added... that's fair game. But process is above reproach.

By all means lets discount 4th round picks... after all we only used one to draft DAK PRESCOTT.
We should certainly trade off Dak for 1 year of Poe... that's genius.

It sucks watching them lose so I understand that bit of it.
But you can use the proper process and lose games.

Again, this is disingenuous.. You make the allegation that people are wanting the Cowboys to sell out in FA, and when told multiple times that is BS, you either try to change the subject or ignore it and then bring it up in a later debate about FA.

And LOL at your Prescott analogy. Geezus. So one hit in the 4th round overshadows the fact most 4th rounders typically never really amount to much but because we got Prescott, that absolutely means we need to horde the ever living poop out of 4th round and later comp picks instead of making smart FA signings that help the team while not killing their cap.

When you type this, do you do it with a straight face?

 

[jterrell]

[

Who exactly is Dallas "developing" at the expense of keeping FAs out of their way?

Home grown "talent" like Chaz Green, Jeff Heath, Terrance Williams anyone else?



Up until that point, he was viewed as a high character player and an equal to Carr. Their evaluation of Carroll was clearly wrong.


Moore was a poor character risk that was honestly not even worth having around after he got suspended. Yet we hung onto him and even were talking him up as he was coming off suspension. Now it is about keeping "upside"? Who? No, it is more about him getting into trouble off the field just as much.



One player is mired behind Jeff Heath. The other got pressed into service because Carroll got concussed and simply took the job. I guess we need to wait on Heath to get hurt.

Any rookie you have, you basically have for three years unless they are a top pick. So getting them a fair and honest shot is the best way to make that philosophy work.

Instead we signed "insurance". Bad insurance. Like the General when you really could have used Allstate.



There continues to be this idea that you either spend out the wazoo or you completely ignore FA and simply draft better. But then again, when the team does not draft better, the draft is nothing but a crap shoot anyways. Which is it?

The answer is there is no answer. No team gets it completely. But at the end of the day, the talent that does stick had better make you win more. Draft or free agent. Or trade, which we rarely do.

Even the most staunch supporters of drafting and developing your own, like the Packers and Steelers, will toe dip in free agency/trade and rarely will you see them completely blow it like Dallas did with this crop. They also tend to do a better job of finding fits and then developing those fits. Dallas and development, well, not to their level yet.

It is not an either/or position. And those teams are consistent. They are not one good year, one bad year.

One thing I will never get is people mistake our own caution in free agency being blamed on anything else other than our own foolishness in signing bad talent five or so years ago. It might be nice to pretend it was all about being smart and learning the philosophy. The cap punishment was a huge part of it and the penny pinching was a side effect they can live with for the time being.

I don't care if they want to continue with this philosophy. Be as cheap as you want. Just don't try to sell me on bad players who regardless of how cheap they were does not dismiss the fact they were poor evaluations to begin with.

You some solid points in here mixed in with some stretches but i'm not playing block quotes replies as it's just too time consuming.

So short version.

Xavier Woods is playing a lot and earning that time. He's an example of how to do things.
Heath is also an example of how to do things. He is a guy who's never made any money and has been a good depth guy and special teamer here. His kicking off and XPs was pretty special use of a player like that.

The Steelers and Packers have been good because they found franchise QBs. Stylistically they are similar but both rely on the QB to win them games. And yes they rely more on drafting than free agency.
But again they also both have very veteran QBs and as those guys are peaking you are much more willing to spend in free agency and make trades.

Dallas went from a crap 4 win team to a 13 win team relying on young guys and now fans want to go hire mercenaries... lol.
That makes no sense.

This team is 3-3 and improving. If you can make 9-7 and the playoffs that's a good goal. Go get a playoff win and watch this team grow up.
You have a lot more draft picks coming next year and the right guy making the draft selections.

 

[Sydla]

[

You some solid points in here mixed in with some stretches but i'm not playing block quotes replies as it's just too time consuming.

So short version.

Xavier Woods is playing a lot and earning that time. He's an example of how to do things.
Heath is also an example of how to do things. He is a guy who's never made any money and has been a good depth guy and special teamer here. His kicking off and XPs was pretty special use of a player like that.

The Steelers and Packers have been good because they found franchise QBs. Stylistically they are similar but both rely on the QB to win them games. And yes they rely more on drafting than free agency.
But again they also both have very veteran QBs and as those guys are peaking you are much more willing to spend in free agency and make trades.

Dallas went from a crap 4 win team to a 13 win team relying on young guys and now fans want to go hire mercenaries... lol.
That makes no sense.

This team is 3-3 and improving. If you can make 9-7 and the playoffs that's a good goal. Go get a playoff win and watch this team grow up.
You have a lot more draft picks coming next year and the right guy making the draft selections.

And there it is again. You can't even help yourself anymore, can you?

 

[jterrell]

Bennett was AN EXAMPLE of New England going outside the organization for help and not relying solely on the draft. If you really thought I was suggesting the Cowboys should have gone out and gotten Bennett, that would explain a lot.

You know who criticizes their plan? Fans of a team that sees a defense that continues to struggle because they've whiffed on their crap bin FA signings and some pretty big failures/duds in the draft on the defensive side.

It's pretty simple. This team is better, today, with Logan as the 1 tech and Hyde at SS. Further, the future cap implications are minimal, the Cowboys still could have drafted heavy at CB, and would still have their high picks in future drafts to select more defense and still build that way and continue to keep the overall roster young and not aging.

Good lord man... are you delusional?
You used the example. I responded to the example.

Micah Hyde is essentially the exact same player as Xavier Woods. You don't pay 30 million for that.
Again Hyde would have cost you 30m plus a 5th round pick or you just draft Xavier Woods.

Bennie Logan is a solid player whom the Cowboys liked coming out of LSU. But you pay him 8m and give up a 4th round pick? No.

 

[Sydla]

Good lord man... are you delusional?
You used the example. I responded to the example.

Micah Hyde is essentially the exact same player as Xavier Woods. You don't pay 30 million for that.
Again Hyde would have cost you 30m plus a 5th round pick or you just draft Xavier Woods.

Bennie Logan is a solid player whom the Cowboys liked coming out of LSU. But you pay him 8m and give up a 4th round pick? No.

The delusion is all on your part because your rebuttal was very clearly I should give up if I "want to use a 4th or 5th round pick to rent a backup TE". I never said anything close to that. You should probably explain yourself better because what you said is as clear as day.

And LOL at saying Woods is the same player as Hyde. Maybe in a year or so he'll be that player but to say a rookie who has played decently in limited snaps is as good as a guy playing very well, leading the league in interceptions on a top scoring D is hilarious.

Your obsession with comp picks is bizarre, especially at the expense of being able to sign a quality player that can help your defense now and possibly in the future.

And yeah, I have no issues paying a quality DT $8MM for one year and giving up a 5th round comp pick. You significantly overvalue the worth of a comp pick.

Now would I pay Logan $12MM a year for 5 years? Of course not.

 

[CowboyRoy]

I'll cop to being fooled on several of them.

I drank the Kool-Aid on Moore and Paea being nice adds, and Heath stepping in at safety. None of which turned out to be true.

In my defense, I never though Carroll was a good signing, but gave benefit of the doubt that they saw something's I didn't.

So that's one for me!

Not only are you the most accurate poster on here, but you man up when you get it wrong. Yah, it was very surprising to me that you drank it up. Was definitely out of character for you. If I recall it was because you thought that somehow the defensive coaches were coaching these guys up? After this season I have completely soured on Marinelli. Taco was the last straw for me. This guy passes on great football players for projects simply because he feels like they DONT FIT his system. Madness.

 

[kevm3]

How about just being able to recognize the talent that you already have? And paying a little more money to keep them rather than going out and signing players who are marginally cheaper but much, much, much worse?

That's what ended up happening here. This had less to do with dollars and more to do with sense. Common sense. And being able to identify talent.

Why not do both?