Defensive Line review, where's the beef?

[DandyDon52]

I'm all for letting coaches get players that they want and that fit their scheme. I'm also all for firing coaches when they get said players and run said scheme and it remains below average.

that is the way it should work.
but here the jones boys decide all. I think they do allow some input from coaches though.

 

[reddyuta]

that is the way it should work.
but here the jones boys decide all. I think they do allow some input from coaches though.

I think Jerry is too deferential to Marinelli,clearly his Scheme is not working becaue he refuses to use premium draft resources on the FREAKING DT positions with predictable results.I would have forced Marinellis hand but Jerry and Stephen are content with subpar DT play.

 

[DandyDon52]

I think Jerry is too deferential to Marinelli,clearly his Scheme is not working becaue he refuses to use premium draft resources on the FREAKING DT positions with predictable results.I would have forced Marinellis hand but Jerry and Stephen are content with subpar DT play.

evidently none of them think we need a bigger DT.
or that DT is that important.
I know jerry has always focused on the DE position , not the interior.

It is a mess, it is like having 3 gm's who are all building a different team, and then the coaches have to deal with who they get.

The OL is the only thing they have done right, and I think that just worked out that way, it was never a plan.

 

[starfrombirth]

According to the great Mike Fisher, the Cowboys are "changing their thoughts" about the 1-Tech position, and they will "no longer put JAGs there".

Take that for what it's worth.

Where did he say that? I'd like to read that article.

 

[DoctorChicken]

Where did he say that? I'd like to read that article.

It was on the radio. I searched for it in print afterwards and didn't see it.

 

[batman36]

Jerry told Christy Scales prior to the season finale against Washington, that one of the priorities in the offseason would be to upgrade the DT position. It was in "The Owners Box" feature.

 

[jobberone]

We can be weak up the middle. A lot of that is the one gap defense. That together with ZBSs can be problematic for a defense.

But it's not just as simple as either changing the scheme or changing the personnel. IF you could get big, fast, guys up front who could get pressure and sack then you MIGHT be able to play one or two gaps as well as all techniques and the hybrid fronts that go with them.

But you can't and if you could you couldn't afford to keep them together.

I've never opposed a fire hydrant type in the middle who could also push the pocket. They are RARE. It is better to teach players better techniques and get them more situationally aware so they can deal with OL techniques and try to find guys who can play the middle. You also have to have LBers who can shed blocks and make tackles when your guys get moved in that one gap. When you have guys like that then it is hard to find thumpers who can also play pass defense.

It is almost always a series of compromises and you see it in offenses and defenses looking for mismatches as well as trying to put their guys in the best position to make plays and play to their strengths.

It may sound trite to some but this is the game unless you've got 11 guys with 99 strength running around on your computer's defense.

 

[BlindFaith]

We can be weak up the middle. A lot of that is the one gap defense. That together with ZBSs can be problematic for a defense.

But it's not just as simple as either changing the scheme or changing the personnel. IF you could get big, fast, guys up front who could get pressure and sack then you MIGHT be able to play one or two gaps as well as all techniques and the hybrid fronts that go with them.

But you can't and if you could you couldn't afford to keep them together.

I've never opposed a fire hydrant type in the middle who could also push the pocket. They are RARE. It is better to teach players better techniques and get them more situationally aware so they can deal with OL techniques and try to find guys who can play the middle. You also have to have LBers who can shed blocks and make tackles when your guys get moved in that one gap. When you have guys like that then it is hard to find thumpers who can also play pass defense.

It is almost always a series of compromises and you see it in offenses and defenses looking for mismatches as well as trying to put their guys in the best position to make plays and play to their strengths.

It may sound trite to some but this is the game unless you've got 11 guys with 99 strength running around on your computer's defense.

I don't agree. Being weak up the middle is what loses you games in the second half.

Size does matter. Look at the basic principle of having on offensive lineman simply having to push an extra 20 or 30 pounds around every play. That makes a difference. Now if the guy with the extra 20 or 30 lbs can consistently get under the pads of the offensive lineman and has long arms, that is an advantage to the DL. Now if that same guy has some quickness and can use his hands, you have a pro bowl type guy.

Look at the top guys on my list. All of the DTs. All of them are at least 10 lbs heavier than Crawford. Most are 15 to 20 lbs heavier. And a lot of them are under 6'3". And most of them show they can get to the passer so I don't think they are as rare as you think. You've been brainwashed.

Is it just a coincidence that we are the lightest defensive front in the league and also the 29th against the run (19 overall)?

 

[Zimmy Lives]

I don't agree. Being weak up the middle is what loses you games in the second half.

Size does matter. Look at the basic principle of having on offensive lineman simply having to push an extra 20 or 30 pounds around every play. That makes a difference. Now if the guy with the extra 20 or 30 lbs can consistently get under the pads of the offensive lineman and has long arms, that is an advantage to the DL. Now if that same guy has some quickness and can use his hands, you have a pro bowl type guy.

Look at the top guys on my list. All of the DTs. All of them are at least 10 lbs heavier than Crawford. Most are 15 to 20 lbs heavier. And a lot of them are under 6'3". And most of them show they can get to the passer so I don't think they are as rare as you think. You've been brainwashed.

Is it just a coincidence that we are the lightest defensive front in the league and also the 29th against the run (19 overall)?

I agree with both you and jobberone.

Size does matter but so do numbers. If there were eight guys on the d-line of similar talent that could be interchanged continuously throughout the game, they would be able to wear out a larger o-line. It worked for the Cowboys in the 90s and it could work for them again now.

The only problem is, there are not enough quality guys on the d-line to run the scheme. Only Crawford has a legit backup who can get upfield. And you can't really call Golden Cock a quality starter. If you can't get the numbers, you go for size. Right now I wouldn't mind a stud run-stuffer in the middle who gets a good push and can maintain double-teams without getting blown up.

 

[BlindFaith]

I agree with both you and jobberone.

Size does matter but so do numbers. If there were eight guys on the d-line of similar talent that could be interchanged continuously throughout the game, they would be able to wear out a larger o-line. It worked for the Cowboys in the 90s and it could work for them again now.

The only problem is, there are not enough quality guys on the d-line to run the scheme. Only Crawford has a legit backup who can get upfield. And you can't really call Golden Cock a quality starter. If you can't get the numbers, you go for size. Right now I wouldn't mind a stud run-stuffer in the middle who gets a good push and can maintain double-teams without getting blown up.

I understand the need to keep guys fresh, but not a big fan of the "waves or rotation" that seems to be a mantra here.

So would you rather pay for 8 slightly above average guys or pay for 4 studs and 4 slightly below average guys and play the 4 studs until they drop? Since we've gone the first route the last 3 years and it hasn't worked, I'm suggesting we go with the second option.

 

[Zimmy Lives]

I understand the need to keep guys fresh, but not a big fan of the "waves or rotation" that seems to be a mantra here.

So would you rather pay for 8 slightly above average guys or pay for 4 studs and 4 slightly below average guys and play the 4 studs until they drop? Since we've gone the first route the last 3 years and it hasn't worked, I'm suggesting we go with the second option.

I think you know the answer to that. I would rather have the four studs -- one of those a behemoth who destroys blocking schemes, please -- with at least two quality backups.

 

[jobberone]

I don't agree. Being weak up the middle is what loses you games in the second half.

Size does matter. Look at the basic principle of having on offensive lineman simply having to push an extra 20 or 30 pounds around every play. That makes a difference. Now if the guy with the extra 20 or 30 lbs can consistently get under the pads of the offensive lineman and has long arms, that is an advantage to the DL. Now if that same guy has some quickness and can use his hands, you have a pro bowl type guy.

Look at the top guys on my list. All of the DTs. All of them are at least 10 lbs heavier than Crawford. Most are 15 to 20 lbs heavier. And a lot of them are under 6'3". And most of them show they can get to the passer so I don't think they are as rare as you think. You've been brainwashed.

Is it just a coincidence that we are the lightest defensive front in the league and also the 29th against the run (19 overall)?

I'm not debating the efficacy of large DTs vs quick twitch 1s and 3s playing a one gap. I'm pointing out the problems expecting your personnel to perform in deferring schemes. Like it or not, we run a one gap and we run that one gap in a certain way as a base. Just like other teams, we run differing schemes and techniques from that scheme of course You can debate the pros and cons until the cows come home.

Most would agree that if you run a one gap to penetrate fully with smaller guys then you are going to risk getting caught out of position at times including blowing thru the right hole at the wrong time and being schemed by interior OL particularly vulnerable to a ZBS.

If you don't want that then you run a 0 technique two gap with bigger guys as a base run defense. Or you have excellent LBers who can fill the hole and make tackles. Here is at the least the other half of our problem. Throw in poor safety play and you can have a run defense problem. We gave up 4.2ypa last year which is middlin'. One can break that number down situationally by looking at numerous online sites.

The point is you are going to likely get a plodder at the NT there. He's not likely to give you much push or penetration unless you get lucky and/or spend a high pick. You can improve on the play of our 1. It's not as bad as many think because they don't appear to be taking into account the pros and cons of our base run defense but it can be improved for certain. Our starting 3 is a pretty good player esp when healthy. I'm sure they'd like another. Maybe a well McClain will be a 1/3. Hardy can play inside and in fact can play the 5/3/1 as can TCrawford.

If you want bigger guys then you're going to have to pay for them IF you want them to not get moved around AND get some push.

 

[BlindFaith]

I'm not debating the efficacy of large DTs vs quick twitch 1s and 3s playing a one gap. I'm pointing out the problems expecting your personnel to perform in deferring schemes. Like it or not, we run a one gap and we run that one gap in a certain way as a base. Just like other teams, we run differing schemes and techniques from that scheme of course You can debate the pros and cons until the cows come home.

Most would agree that if you run a one gap to penetrate fully with smaller guys then you are going to risk getting caught out of position at times including blowing thru the right hole at the wrong time and being schemed by interior OL particularly vulnerable to a ZBS.

If you don't want that then you run a 0 technique two gap with bigger guys as a base run defense. Or you have excellent LBers who can fill the hole and make tackles. Here is at the least the other half of our problem. Throw in poor safety play and you can have a run defense problem. We gave up 4.2ypa last year which is middlin'. One can break that number down situationally by looking at numerous online sites.

The point is you are going to likely get a plodder at the NT there. He's not likely to give you much push or penetration unless you get lucky and/or spend a high pick. You can improve on the play of our 1. It's not as bad as many think because they don't appear to be taking into account the pros and cons of our base run defense but it can be improved for certain. Our starting 3 is a pretty good player esp when healthy. I'm sure they'd like another. Maybe a well McClain will be a 1/3. Hardy can play inside and in fact can play the 5/3/1 as can TCrawford.

If you want bigger guys then you're going to have to pay for them IF you want them to not get moved around AND get some push.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl

Dallas front 7 is ranked 21st overall against the run according to Football Outsiders.

They are 30th in Power Success
They are 17th in Stuffs
They are 29th in 2nd Level Yards
They are 14th in Open Field Yards

Power Success: Percentage of runs on third or fourth down, two yards or less to go, that achieved a first down or touchdown. Also includes runs on first-and-goal or second-and-goal from the two-yard line or closer. This is the only statistic on this page that includes quarterbacks. Teams are ranked from lowest power success percentage allowed (#1) to highest power success percentage allowed (#32).
Stuffed: Percentage of runs where the running back is tackled at or behind the line of scrimmage.Ranked from most stuffs (#1) to fewest stuffs (#32).
Second Level Yards: Yards earned by opposing running backs against this team between 5-10 yards past the line of scrimmage, divided by total running back carries.
Open Field Yards: Yards earned by opposing running backs against this team more than 10 yards past the line of scrimmage, divided by total running back carries.

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Dallas front 7 is ranked 16th against the pass. [/FONT]

If you are going to completely give up against the run with small guys who simply try to get to the QB, then you had better get to the QB. That means you had better be at least top 10.

And I like Lawrence and Crawford. But the point of this thread was to demonstrate just how small we are inside on defense. Hopefully Crawford proves me wrong and comes back healthy and doesn't miss a game the next 4 years. I just don't think that's going to be the case. I think he will be playing injured/out for many, many games because he isn't suited to play inside.

 

[Kolemmitt]

I like Crawford as our three-tech, but I think if you have a smallish three tech., you need a strong one tech. The problem with Hayden is that he is neither big and strong (as far as ones go) nor is he athletic. He is simply a "try-hard" player.

But, I wonder if this is the year that we get an improved one-tech. There are several potential one-techniques in the draft that can actually move and are athletic. Robinson, Billings, and Clark come to mind. They would still be a little undersized, but they would greatly upgrade the athletic ability of our one-tech. Of course, they are likely not worth the fourth pick and they may not last to the 2nd round pick. But, if we trade back a few spots we get into the place where they would be of value.

I know most of us do not think we would spend a first round pick on a 1-tech, but back in 1999 the Bucs took McFarland when they already had Sapp. I think that is when that defense peaked with the two athletic tackles in the middle.

 

[BlindFaith]

I like Crawford as our three-tech, but I think if you have a smallish three tech., you need a strong one tech. The problem with Hayden is that he is neither big and strong (as far as ones go) nor is he athletic. He is simply a "try-hard" player.

But, I wonder if this is the year that we get an improved one-tech. There are several potential one-techniques in the draft that can actually move and are athletic. Robinson, Billings, and Clark come to mind. They would still be a little undersized, but they would greatly upgrade the athletic ability of our one-tech. Of course, they are likely not worth the fourth pick and they may not last to the 2nd round pick. But, if we trade back a few spots we get into the place where they would be of value.

I know most of us do not think we would spend a first round pick on a 1-tech, but back in 1999 the Bucs took McFarland when they already had Sapp. I think that is when that defense peaked with the two athletic tackles in the middle.

As much as I'd like to move Crawford to SDE, he will more than likely stay inside. With that said, will the Cowboys spend a high pick on a 1T or get a good one in FA? And with that said, are you willing to roll with Gregory at WDE?

Hopefully they at least see the need to finally drastically upgrade the 1T. Robinson or Billings would be great in the first after a small trade down. I really like Ian Williamson from San Fran there as well. If Crawford stays inside, then I'd like for us to try and keep Hardy.

 

[Kolemmitt]

As much as I'd like to move Crawford to SDE, he will more than likely stay inside. With that said, will the Cowboys spend a high pick on a 1T or get a good one in FA? And with that said, are you willing to roll with Gregory at WDE?

Hopefully they at least see the need to finally drastically upgrade the 1T. Robinson or Billings would be great in the first after a small trade down. I really like Ian Williamson from San Fran there as well. If Crawford stays inside, then I'd like for us to try and keep Hardy.

I understand what you are saying. I like Crawford but he is a little smallish for the three-tech. DLaw is a stud, but he is a little small for the LDE. Gregory has the tools to turn into an elite pass rusher but he is small to be a starting RDE. And then Hayden is also small for a one and he is average at best.
So we need size...somewhere.

I am in favor of signing Hardy to a one-year deal and getting one of the studs at the one. This would give Gregory another year to beef up. In 2017 maybe Gregory, Crawford, (Billings, Robinson, etc.) and DLaw cold turn into an elite pass rushing group that will be ok against the run. In the modern NFL that might be what we need.

 

[jobberone]

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl

Dallas front 7 is ranked 21st overall against the run according to Football Outsiders.

They are 30th in Power Success
They are 17th in Stuffs
They are 29th in 2nd Level Yards
They are 14th in Open Field Yards

Power Success: Percentage of runs on third or fourth down, two yards or less to go, that achieved a first down or touchdown. Also includes runs on first-and-goal or second-and-goal from the two-yard line or closer. This is the only statistic on this page that includes quarterbacks. Teams are ranked from lowest power success percentage allowed (#1) to highest power success percentage allowed (#32).
Stuffed: Percentage of runs where the running back is tackled at or behind the line of scrimmage.Ranked from most stuffs (#1) to fewest stuffs (#32).
Second Level Yards: Yards earned by opposing running backs against this team between 5-10 yards past the line of scrimmage, divided by total running back carries.
Open Field Yards: Yards earned by opposing running backs against this team more than 10 yards past the line of scrimmage, divided by total running back carries.

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Dallas front 7 is ranked 16th against the pass. [/FONT]

If you are going to completely give up against the run with small guys who simply try to get to the QB, then you had better get to the QB. That means you had better be at least top 10.

And I like Lawrence and Crawford. But the point of this thread was to demonstrate just how small we are inside on defense. Hopefully Crawford proves me wrong and comes back healthy and doesn't miss a game the next 4 years. I just don't think that's going to be the case. I think he will be playing injured/out for many, many games because he isn't suited to play inside.

I like Outsiders but there are other stats out there. I have to eyeball things and study film to go along with the stats. Even then you don't know enough as you don't know for certain the assignments or the adjustments the players are supposed to make depending on the formation and situation. Only the coaches are able to break down the film well. Having said that you can get a general idea.

I still think you are missing my point about how to stop the run in our base run defense. We can't change the scheme nor the personnel. In a one gap the LBers have to clean up the mess the one gaps make when they aren't in the play. As an example, if you're a one and asked on a particular play to line up as a 1B and shoot the gap then that's what you're supposed to do as soon as the ball is snapped. You're not reading the play and making adjustments.

As a consequence they are going to get caught leaning and moved out of their hole or lane. Or perhaps they will get double teamed. It doesn't necessarily help in that instance what your weight or power is. If the RB is running to daylight then the OL may not have a hard time taking anyone out of their lane.

So the point is in a one gap what shoots the gaps you are going to get caught out of position enough that to some it will appear as if you are just too easily moved out of the play. And sure some players will do better in general no matter the scheme, play or what. Those are the guys who are expensive and difficult to acquire.

Obviously you try as hard as possible to acquire and coach talent. You should not spend as much in run defense as you do pass defense. You have to be good enough for each opponent.

Another 1 maybe TMac and/or draft/UDFA, another 3 either very high or late/UD and better LBers will probably get you what you want for the best bang for the buck. Add in better team tackling esp at S and you're probably good enough IMO.

 

[BlindFaith]

I like Outsiders but there are other stats out there. I have to eyeball things and study film to go along with the stats. Even then you don't know enough as you don't know for certain the assignments or the adjustments the players are supposed to make depending on the formation and situation. Only the coaches are able to break down the film well. Having said that you can get a general idea.

I still think you are missing my point about how to stop the run in our base run defense. We can't change the scheme nor the personnel. In a one gap the LBers have to clean up the mess the one gaps make when they aren't in the play. As an example, if you're a one and asked on a particular play to line up as a 1B and shoot the gap then that's what you're supposed to do as soon as the ball is snapped. You're not reading the play and making adjustments.

As a consequence they are going to get caught leaning and moved out of their hole or lane. Or perhaps they will get double teamed. It doesn't necessarily help in that instance what your weight or power is. If the RB is running to daylight then the OL may not have a hard time taking anyone out of their lane.

So the point is in a one gap what shoots the gaps you are going to get caught out of position enough that to some it will appear as if you are just too easily moved out of the play. And sure some players will do better in general no matter the scheme, play or what. Those are the guys who are expensive and difficult to acquire.

Obviously you try as hard as possible to acquire and coach talent. You should not spend as much in run defense as you do pass defense. You have to be good enough for each opponent.

Another 1 maybe TMac and/or draft/UDFA, another 3 either very high or late/UD and better LBers will probably get you what you want for the best bang for the buck. Add in better team tackling esp at S and you're probably good enough IMO.

I understand the principles. Read/React, Occupy and Engage, Penetrate. Over, Under, gap integrity.

Hayden is a complete liability inside. He simple does not command or control a double team. That focus is shifted to Crawford who is not built to take on double teams.

And simply rushing upfield is not a sound concept. A defensive lineman has to feel pressure and maintain their gap. Many, many times our guys lost gap integrity by being blown completely out of the gap or blown back 5 yards.

In a 4-3, your DEs are the ones that are supposed to put up the sack numbers. Only 3 4-3 DTs are in the top 15 of sacks. Donald (8th), Short (10th) and Atkins (12th).

Unless you have a supreme stud like Warren Sapp. The two inside guys should push the pocket and not allow the QB to step up and be stout against the run. I saw very little push and very little stout.

 

[jobberone]

I understand the principles. Read/React, Occupy and Engage, Penetrate. Over, Under, gap integrity.

Hayden is a complete liability inside. He simple does not command or control a double team. That focus is shifted to Crawford who is not built to take on double teams.



And simply rushing upfield is not a sound concept. A defensive lineman has to feel pressure and maintain their gap. Many, many times our guys lost gap integrity by being blown completely out of the gap or blown back 5 yards.



In a 4-3, your DEs are the ones that are supposed to put up the sack numbers. Only 3 4-3 DTs are in the top 15 of sacks. Donald (8th), Short (10th) and Atkins (12th).


Unless you have a supreme stud like Warren Sapp. The two inside guys should push the pocket and not allow the QB to step up and be stout against the run. I saw very little push and very little stout.

All interior linemen are going to get double teamed at times. It depends on where they line up and the play called. A 3 won't get as much as a 1 because they are more often going to line up between a T and a G. Yes, the 3 gets it at times but the OL blocks more according to the defense more often than whose in the hole. If you're arguing that you wish they would double team the 1 more then you are right. They need a better player there to increase the snaps those double teams happens. I agree with that. Hayden is a marginal starter.

Rushing up field is not my tactic but a mainstay of the defense we play. They don't do this all the time but we shoot the gaps a lot. We also shoot and hold and we do react at times as well as play a basic 3 man line with two gap defense techniques. We at times play a 4 man or 5 man line with different techniques of one and two gaps. There is no simple way to state in a few words what any team in the NFL does all the time. You can only say this is a general tendency of a team in this situation. Defenses are just too highly evolved now.

If you look at the Flex, it was designed specifically to counter the early ZBS offenses particularly those of the Cleveland Browns. Paul Brown invented it and RBs ran to daylight. If a DL went one way they would just carry that lineman out of the play in the direction he wanted to go. The reason I bring this up is it is a read and react defense and it played that almost every down. Offenses weren't as sophisticated as they are now. Now nearly every down has its own niche players and schemes with varying techniques.


Marinelli's defense is designed to create pressure all along the wall. You aren't going to get as much pressure in the middle unless you have an elite talent there as you said. Those are hard to find. You're going to get more pressure on the outside as that's generally going to be a one on one situation. You often have 5 OL with three inside against 2 DTs.


We could get more push absolutely. TCrawford will hopefully be healthy this year and return to the player he was. I've seen the guy play in person and he's strong even when hurt. I'd like to see a big guy in the middle but only if he fits the scheme. I like the defense as long as we have the LBers to play it. I do like the versatility of changing the defense at whim though.

 

[Floatyworm]

Terrell McClain is all the beef we need.

Only in Dallas could a guy miss almost 2 full years...yet still be a guy they think they can count on.......