Defensive Passer Rating will once again doom this team

[big dog cowboy]

You've finally seen the light.

Coke all over the keyboard.

 

[Nation]

What's passer rating primarily based on? Yardage?

If that's the case, you can get your yardage in bunches offensively in one quarter, like the fourth, while continuing to hand the ball over to the opposing offense the rest of the game to make your defense have to hold down the fort and give up yardage.

I don't buy the argument we've been effective 'passing-wise offensively', especially against good teams.

It's a metric of efficiency based on Touchdowns, Interceptions, Yards per Attempt, and Completion percentage. You don't have to buy that argument, but we are 8th in points per drive so statistics back it up.

 

[jobberone]

Some of the mocking is getting old and tedious.

You cannot separate the pass rush from the pass defense. There are going to be teams with an average pass rush that will still have decent coverage snaps and vice versa. That's not generally the case. This is a relatively complicated topic. It's been debated over and over.

We don't have the pass rush we'd like and the pass coverage is subpar as well. Otherwise we'd have a better pass defense and I think nearly everyone can agree on that.

 

[big dog cowboy]

Well I don't know about you but I say we keep adding cornerbacks until something sticks.

Completely agree. Someday we will find the right one and we will be set.

 

[Corso]

The Cowboys were 1-4 when he got hurt in the Giants game. That team went 5-3 AFTER Wade was fired.

The Cowboys, unlike the Packers, are struggling because they failed to keep an decent backup QB on their roster. If they had a Kitna like guy on their roster they wouldn't be in such a mess. It's called depth.

Which still brings us back around to the OP subject you ignored. The Cowboys not only lost half their DL starters, but their depth behind them all before the season started. You're whining about the back end. In case you didn't know, all these positions have to work as a team. If the front end does not or cannot do it's job, doesn't matter how good the back end is. Which is what Corso was commenting on as to how it is related to the current defensive passer rating of the team and whether it would have made a difference this season.

Thank you. I was out on a date night with my girl and am just now getting caught up.

That's what I'm talking about. The problem is real and it is significant and it affects all levels of the defense.

There is no excuse this year- I don't care what FANS were whining about last year or the year before.

I'm talking about NOW. Right now. Not how the Packers years ago overcame tremendous odds despite all their injuries to go Hollywood Ending on the world.

I'm not talking about our DB's. I'm talking about a completely decimated line with 2 starters and the main backup gone and the star player hobble all year to boot.

That sound like an excuse?

 

[Corso]

Some of the mocking is getting old and tedious.

You cannot separate the pass rush from the pass defense. There are going to be teams with an average pass rush that will still have decent coverage snaps and vice versa. That's not generally the case. This is a relatively complicated topic. It's been debated over and over.

We don't have the pass rush we'd like and the pass coverage is subpar as well. Otherwise we'd have a better pass defense and I think nearly everyone can agree on that.

The CB mocking is just stale anymore. People with not much else to say.
They need a little creativity in their life.

 

[KJJ]

I'm not talking about our DB's. I'm talking about a completely decimated line with 2 starters and the main backup gone and the star player hobble all year to boot.

The Cowboys screwed up during the offseason by not dumping Ratliff which I thought they would do and instead of wasting another #2 pick on a TE use the pick to try and replace Ratliff. They didn't prepare themselves to lose both Ratliff and Spencer.

 

[Corso]

The Cowboys screwed up during the offseason by not dumping Ratliff which I thought they would do and instead of wasting another #2 pick on a TE use the pick to try and replace Ratliff. They didn't prepare themselves to lose both Ratliff and Spencer.

I agree with you there.
One big mistake compounded by another big mistake.

Maybe Esco becomes something, but man- it would so much better if they didn't get cute with that pick and did what they should have done with that Rat.

And for the record- I actually agree with everything you have said and have said so myself many times in the very recent past on this board.

I just felt like playing Devil's Advocate.

I honestly believe you're an excellent poster who I enjoy reading.

 

[KJJ]

I agree with you there.
One big mistake compounded by another big mistake.

Maybe Esco becomes something, but man- it would so much better if they didn't get cute with that pick and did what they should have done with that Rat.

And for the record- I actually agree with everything you have said and have said so myself many times in the very recent past on this board.

I just felt like playing Devil's Advocate.

I honestly believe you're an excellent poster who I enjoy reading.

Many of us hated the Escobar pick as soon as it was announced on draft day. My issue with the pick had nothing to do with Escobar as a player because I had never seen him play it was the position we picked that bothered me. I'm sure most everyone else felt the same way who had an issue with the pick. Using a #2 pick for the 3rd time in 7 years on a TE when the first two didn't pan out didn't make any sense. A high pick like that could have been used on the DL to replace Ratliff or at least give the team a contingcy plan incase he had a setback.

I thought for sure after he missed 9 games last season and hearing the reports in Dec that he and Jerry had a heated argument he would be sent packing. I was real surprised he was coming back and it turned out to be a mistake. As for playing devil's advocate that's what makes it interesting here. Wouldn't be much fun and kind of boring if we agreed on everything. I don't harbor any bad feelings if someone doesn't see things my way and I hope they feel the same way. Glad you don't take any of this personally everyone has an opinion whether we agree with it or not.

 

[jterrell]

There's teams that have won SB's despite a number of injuries. The 2010 Packers had 15 players on injured reserve and still won the SB. FANS here say they would love to see how the Cowboys would play totally healthy but no team goes through an entire season totally healthy. Injuries happen to every team so you need players who can come in and step up.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/599611-green-bay-despite-injuries-and-setbacks-packers-are-champs

HAHAHA.
This is my favorite sports lie.
The Packers certainly suffered injuries and handled it well.
All teams suffer some injuries.
But the effort to which people will go to tell you all about that battered Packers team is hilarious.
The 5 man OL lost a total of 4 games from week 1 to 16.
The secondary had 3 Pro Bowlers who missed a total of ZERO regular season games.

They were battered at inside LB and RB. Those are positions NFL teams generally lose guys at.
And GB was hardly some RB dependant club.

Many of those guys were done or non-entities.
Like Edgar Jones getting hurt here.
Or more specifically like Miles Austin getting hurt here.
GB had drafted Donald Driver's replacement in Jordy Nelson. Was that some terrible drop off?

Rodgers, Greg Jennings, Jordy Nelson carried the offense.
Charles Woodson, Tramon Williams, Clay Matthews, AJ Hawk carried the defense.

They lost Ryan Grant who had had a good run, Cullen Jenkins mid-season as a 3-4 RDE that was impressing and Jermichael Finley.
The rest was largely ballast.

 

[jterrell]

Many of us hated the Escobar pick as soon as it was announced on draft day. My issue with the pick had nothing to do with Escobar as a player because I had never seen him play it was the position we picked that bothered me. I'm sure most everyone else felt the same way who had an issue with the pick. Using a #2 pick for the 3rd time in 7 years on a TE when the first two didn't pan out didn't make any sense. A high pick like that could have been used on the DL to replace Ratliff or at least give the team a contingcy plan incase he had a setback.

I thought for sure after he missed 9 games last season and hearing the reports in Dec that he and Jerry had a heated argument he would be sent packing. I was real surprised he was coming back and it turned out to be a mistake. As for playing devil's advocate that's what makes it interesting here. Wouldn't be much fun and kind of boring if we agreed on everything. I don't harbor any bad feelings if someone doesn't see things my way and I hope they feel the same way. Glad you don't take any of this personally everyone has an opinion whether we agree with it or not.

And many fans are literally ignorant. They have zero information whatsoever about anything.
Teams need to draft guys they have high grades on.
And TE was a big need in Dallas that grows larger every day Witten ages.

Marty B has not been a bad draft selection at all. He was taken with the 61st pick and has produced 59 starts with 88 games played.
Had he not been behind a Hall of Famer here he'd have had a larger impact but he was a contributor here in a big way with his blocking.

Witten can not play forever and you have to replace him. Escobar was taken to handle his pass catching duties in the FUTURE.

If Escobar proves a poor pick it will be in 2 or 3 years, not this year.
Fans crowing about being right on the pick are just being stupid.
As if 75% of the draft class starting some games isn't enough.

Since Dallas has hit on the rest of these guys it seems rather comical to assume the fan base knows more than they do about Escobar.

The fan base was in an uproar when we passed Floyd, then when we drafted Frederick.
Then basically for every pick after that.

 

[jterrell]

The Cowboys screwed up during the offseason by not dumping Ratliff which I thought they would do and instead of wasting another #2 pick on a TE use the pick to try and replace Ratliff. They didn't prepare themselves to lose both Ratliff and Spencer.

Again, this is why fans shouldn't even be allowed to discuss this stuff.
It's like children complaining about the order their parents pay the bills.

Dallas used a 3rd round and 4th round pick in 2012 on DL. Wilber has moved to LB now but he was drafted as a pass rusher. --and likely Spencer replacement.
Dallas was not replacing Ratliff in r2 this year. How do I know? Because only 1 DT came off the board in the next 20 picks after Dallas took Escobar.
Johnathon Hankins. He has zero starts and 9 total tackles on the year. He's a big space eater that Marinelli wouldn't like.
He has never been called a quick twitch or explosive guy like Ratliff.

The DL came off this draft board at the top. Dallas was very aware of that list and coveted guys like Sheldon Richardson.
But they never had a shot at them.
The one guy they did have a shot at was Floyd and Marinelli didn't like him enough to warrant a pick in r1.

The Cowboys had a GREAT draft(arguably the best in football) so for cripessake stop crying about it and pretending you would have fared better.

 

[KJJ]

HAHAHA.
This is my favorite sports lie.
The Packers certainly suffered injuries and handled it well.
All teams suffer some injuries.
But the effort to which people will go to tell you all about that battered Packers team is hilarious.
The 5 man OL lost a total of 4 games from week 1 to 16.
The secondary had 3 Pro Bowlers who missed a total of ZERO regular season games.

They were battered at inside LB and RB. Those are positions NFL teams generally lose guys at.
And GB was hardly some RB dependant club.

Many of those guys were done or non-entities.
Like Edgar Jones getting hurt here.
Or more specifically like Miles Austin getting hurt here.
GB had drafted Donald Driver's replacement in Jordy Nelson. Was that some terrible drop off?

Rodgers, Greg Jennings, Jordy Nelson carried the offense.
Charles Woodson, Tramon Williams, Clay Matthews, AJ Hawk carried the defense.

They lost Ryan Grant who had had a good run, Cullen Jenkins mid-season as a 3-4 RDE that was impressing and Jermichael Finley.
The rest was largely ballast.

The fact is GB had a number of injuries and overcame them to win a championship. The Ravens had some key injuries last season including losing their starting corner for the season and they overcame them to win a championship. You have to be able to plug in players because no team is going to stay completely healthy. Regardless of how many players the Cowboys lose to injury it's used as an excuse every season. I mentioned earlier how TO not being 100% for the Giants playoff game in 07 was used an excuse for losing that game. Even when 100% healthy the defense is average. The Cowboys don't have a dominant player upfront who creates havoc. Ware has only 5 sacks after 12 games which has him on pace for a career low. On the rare occassions Claiborne has been healthy he hasn't played well which got him benched earlier in the season. Bruce Carter has been healthy all season and has been so inconsistent it got him benched along with Claiborne. The players the Cowboys have on defense who they entered the season counting on have been inconsistent except for Lee who's been the only standout player on the defense. Even with a healthy Sean Lee the defense has looked terrible.

Prior to the draft this past April a lot of us were on here talking about how the Cowboys need to address the DL. Selvie who played with 3 teams prior to arriving in Dallas has been a surprise for the Cowboys but he's an average player who's been able to stand out on a bad Cowboys defense. For the Cowboys to ignore the DL and use a #2 pick on a TE who's done virtually nothing in the passing game was a stupid move that even some of us knew would end up being a mistake. The Cowboys had 2 aging defensive players who had injury concerns and were left unprepared entering the 2013 season. It's obvious the Cowboys weren't sure about Spencer which is why they again couldn't come up with a long-term contract for him and they're damn lucky they didn't. Expect a defensive heavy draft in May.

 

[KJJ]

And many fans are literally ignorant. They have zero information whatsoever about anything.
Teams need to draft guys they have high grades on.
And TE was a big need in Dallas that grows larger every day Witten ages.

Marty B has not been a bad draft selection at all. He was taken with the 61st pick and has produced 59 starts with 88 games played.
Had he not been behind a Hall of Famer here he'd have had a larger impact but he was a contributor here in a big way with his blocking.

Witten can not play forever and you have to replace him. Escobar was taken to handle his pass catching duties in the FUTURE.

If Escobar proves a poor pick it will be in 2 or 3 years, not this year.
Fans crowing about being right on the pick are just being stupid.
As if 75% of the draft class starting some games isn't enough.

Since Dallas has hit on the rest of these guys it seems rather comical to assume the fan base knows more than they do about Escobar.

The fan base was in an uproar when we passed Floyd, then when we drafted Frederick.
Then basically for every pick after that.

The first 2 TE's Fasano and MartyB ended up being bad picks for the Cowboys neither came close to living up to their #2 draft status which is why they never saw a second contract with the Cowboys. Fasano lasted only 2 years in Dallas because he was drafted to block for Bledslow. Once Romo took over he was sent packing to Miami with another player for a measly 4th round pick because the Cowboys were in search of a pass receiving TE to pair with Witten in a 2 TE offense. They saw MartyB as a better receiving TE than Fasano. MartyB had a basketball background and knowing Jerry he probably saw Antonio Gates in MartyB. LOL Playing behind Witten killed off both Fasano and MartyB. Both players have produced since they left the Cowboys because neither are playing behind a Jason Witten. Witten may not be quite the player he was but he's still a very productive player.

The Cowboys had the same plan for Escobar they had for MartyB to use him as a pass receiving threat to compliment Witten not to replace him. Witten will be 32 next season he's still got some years left which made using a #2 on another TE a stupid move. Having Witten as the starter is keeping Escobar from producing. He's only caught 5 passes for 70 yards and one TD. He's going to have a tough time matching what MartyB produced as a rookie. All the Cowboys are doing is drafting TE's to develop them so they can produce for another team in 4 years. Since MaryB left the Cowboys he's become a productive player. In his last 27 games he's produced almost 1200 yards and 10 TD's and may come back to haunt the Cowboys on Monday Night. He would love nothing better than to have a big game against the Cowboys and it could happen against our defense.

 

[KJJ]

Again, this is why fans shouldn't even be allowed to discuss this stuff.
It's like children complaining about the order their parents pay the bills.

Dallas used a 3rd round and 4th round pick in 2012 on DL. Wilber has moved to LB now but he was drafted as a pass rusher. --and likely Spencer replacement.
Dallas was not replacing Ratliff in r2 this year. How do I know? Because only 1 DT came off the board in the next 20 picks after Dallas took Escobar.
Johnathon Hankins. He has zero starts and 9 total tackles on the year. He's a big space eater that Marinelli wouldn't like.
He has never been called a quick twitch or explosive guy like Ratliff.

The DL came off this draft board at the top. Dallas was very aware of that list and coveted guys like Sheldon Richardson.
But they never had a shot at them.
The one guy they did have a shot at was Floyd and Marinelli didn't like him enough to warrant a pick in r1.

The Cowboys had a GREAT draft(arguably the best in football) so for cripessake stop crying about it and pretending you would have fared better.

The Cowboys could have used a 3rd or 4th round pick on a TE and used the #2 on the DL. They came up with Witten with a #3 pick. It didn't have to be a player to replace Ratliff but a player on the DL to add depth who could be a possible starter down the road. Escobar wasn't rated any higher than the 3rd best TE in the draft according to most experts. Some had him farther down the list than that. .I'm not saying he's not a good player but it's going to be very difficult for him to live up to his draft status playing behind Witten who's still very productive and durable. The Cowboys could have also gone OL with the pick. I would never use a #2 pick on a TE having a Jason Witten who was coming off a career best 110 catch season in 2012.

 

[DanteEXT]

The fact is GB had a number of injuries and overcame them to win a championship. The Ravens had some key injuries last season including losing their starting corner for the season and they overcame them to win a championship. You have to be able to plug in players because no team is going to stay completely healthy. Regardless of how many players the Cowboys lose to injury it's used as an excuse every season. I mentioned earlier how TO not being 100% for the Giants playoff game in 07 was used an excuse for losing that game. Even when 100% healthy the defense is average. The Cowboys don't have a dominant player upfront who creates havoc. Ware has only 5 sacks after 12 games which has him on pace for a career low. On the rare occassions Claiborne has been healthy he hasn't played well which got him benched earlier in the season. Bruce Carter has been healthy all season and has been so inconsistent it got him benched along with Claiborne. The players the Cowboys have on defense who they entered the season counting on have been inconsistent except for Lee who's been the only standout player on the defense. Even with a healthy Sean Lee the defense has looked terrible.

Prior to the draft this past April a lot of us were on here talking about how the Cowboys need to address the DL. Selvie who played with 3 teams prior to arriving in Dallas has been a surprise for the Cowboys but he's an average player who's been able to stand out on a bad Cowboys defense. For the Cowboys to ignore the DL and use a #2 pick on a TE who's done virtually nothing in the passing game was a stupid move that even some of us knew would end up being a mistake. The Cowboys had 2 aging defensive players who had injury concerns and were left unprepared entering the 2013 season. It's obvious the Cowboys weren't sure about Spencer which is why they again couldn't come up with a long-term contract for him and they're damn lucky they didn't. Expect a defensive heavy draft in May.

Ware has only played 8.5 games this year, not 12.

Claiborne missed all of the preseason, struggled to start the season and got benched, that is true. BUT after that and up to his hamstring injury, he was actually playing well.

It takes more than one player to be able to create havoc up front. Or are you one of those ... FANS.... that think you can take 3 random SFA's, put them next to a all pro/pro bowler DLineman and suddenly you have the next Doomsday defense? The recent years when Dallas has been among the lead leaders in sacks, they've had 3-4 players (at least) up front that could wreak havoc. Do you honestly think this team has more than 2 people that could fall into that category this year? I count Ware and Hatcher... that's it.

 

[KJJ]

Ware has only played 8.5 games this year, not 12.

Claiborne missed all of the preseason, struggled to start the season and got benched, that is true. BUT after that and up to his hamstring injury, he was actually playing well.

It takes more than one player to be able to create havoc up front. Or are you one of those ... FANS.... that think you can take 3 random SFA's, put them next to a all pro/pro bowler DLineman and suddenly you have the next Doomsday defense? The recent years when Dallas has been among the lead leaders in sacks, they've had 3-4 players (at least) up front that could wreak havoc. Do you honestly think this team has more than 2 people that could fall into that category this year? I count Ware and Hatcher... that's it.

Even in the games Ware's played he hasn't been the force he's been. The injuries coupled with his age have made him less effective he's on the decline. Claiborne is always missing time he came to the Cowboys as a rookie missing time with an injury. He's been injury prone and even when healthy hasn't lived up to his top 10 draft status. If the Cowboys had a do over do you honestly believe they would still take Claiborne? One great player up front can create some havoc. You're not going to find a SFA who's going to create much which is why they're on the street.

Even when the defense was able to wreck some havoc up front they struggled in big games. When Ware produced 19.5 sacks in 2011 along with Spencer's 6 sacks and Hatchers 4.5 but the defense couldn't make stops when it got down to crunch time. It's the same problem every season on defense but at least this season despite all the injuries the defense is coming up with turnovers and defensive scores. The only way the current defense can stop anyone is with takeaways. The defensive struggles got Ryan fired last season and may doom Kiffin.

 

[jobberone]

How many mid 2nd round picks start their first year? What is the 'bust' rate for 2nd rounders? For TEs overall and in the 2nd round? How long does it take to develop a TE or an OL? Or any other position? You can do this with all comers and then by leaving out the blue ribbon picks.

 

[KJJ]

How many mid 2nd round picks start their first year?

As long as Witten is here Escobar will never start unless Witten gets hurt. If he doesn't produce by the time his contract is up he'll be gone just like Fasano and MartyB. Escobar could end up being a very productive TE but it's unlikely to happen in Dallas playing behind Jason Witten.

 

[KJJ]

Because of the big emphasis on creating turnovers this season I've noticed that a lot of the Cowboys defensive players appear to be focusing more on stripping the ball than on making tackles. Against the Lions a few weeks ago after Calvin Johnson made a catch Carr came up and tried to punch the ball out of his hands instead of trying to make the tackle and it led to a huge play.

I've seen this happen a few times this season where players are trying to strip the ball rather than securing the tackle. I saw Bruce Carter vs the Chiefs allow Charles to gain a few extra yards on a critical 3rd down looking like he was trying to strip him of the ball rather than getting him on the ground. This allowed Charles to get the yards needed to move the chains.