DMN: BLOG: Can Cowboys afford to get rid of Greg Ellis?

[Cbz40]

Can Cowboys afford to get rid of Greg Ellis?

9:26 AM Fri, May 22, 2009 | Permalink | Yahoo! Buzz
Tim MacMahon


Ending Greg Ellis' decade-plus tenure with the Cowboys makes financial sense. The team would create more than $5 million in cap space if they can trade him, $4.15 million if they cut him. That cash can be put to good use (direct deposit into DeMarcus Ware's account as part of a massive signing bonus).

Does getting rid of Ellis make football sense? Seems like it's too early to tell.

The Cowboys are confident that 2007 first-round pick Anthony Spencer is ready to step into a starting role. He's an upgrade over Ellis at this point against the run and has the potential to be a good pass rusher. But Spencer missed four games last season, when he was a part-time player, due to knee and hamstring injuries. What happens if he gets hurt?

The Cowboys drafted a pair of DE-to-OLB conversion projects in the fourth round. Ideally, they would combine to play about 20 snaps per game on passing downs. If Victor Butler and Brandon Williams are pushed into bigger roles as rookies, they could be exploited in the running game, which LB coach Reggie Herring acknowledged as a facet of the game in which both fourth-rounders need to improve significantly. Justin Rogers is also on the roster, but he's a solid special teams player who hasn't played a significant NFL down on defense.

That's why it's a little surprising that the Cowboys appear ready to move on from Ellis right now. It seems like the Cowboys would have benefited from monitoring the development of their draft picks during training camp and the preseason before making this decision.

Maybe they're doing Ellis a favor, allowing him an opportunity to spend the bulk of an off-season learning his new team's scheme. Or perhaps they figure its best for all involved to cancel this edition of the annual Greg Ellis Summer Soap Opera before it gets rolling.

 

[Canadian BoyzFan]

I thought the cap savings were over 5 million per Adamjt21?

 

[Doomsday101]

I would rather we keep him because I think he has more value to the team than what we could get out of a trade. However if the object is to clean house of the squeaky wheels then I say do what you feel you have to do.

 

[Hypnotoad]

The real question is can we afford to keep him? We haven't won a single playoff game with him on this team. That price is a little too much for me.

 

[Yeagermeister]

Yes....

/thread

 

[Doomsday101]

The real question is can we afford to keep him? We haven't won a single playoff game with him on this team. That price is a little too much for me.

And Ellis was the reason? We have not won a playoff game since Witten has been on the team. Matter of fact we have not won a play off game with fill in the blank on the team.

 

[JVita17]

The real question is can we afford to keep him? We haven't won a single playoff game with him on this team.

Romo
Barber
Newman
Ware

oh wait its the entire roster. The entire roster hasnt helped up to win a playoff game, a name or two from the above list has cost us playoff games tho....

 

[Alexander]

Does getting rid of Ellis make football sense? Seems like it's too early to tell.

It makes perfect sense. We drafted two rookies and he's going to be an expensive backup who might even poison the waters if he doesn't get his way. If he wasn't going to be either inserted as the starter ahead of Spencer or be permitted to win his job in an open competition, it makes no sense to keep him. This isn't a case of the good old days where a Jim Jeffcoat can come in, play 10-15 snaps and you reap the benefits. Ellis wouldn't be humble enough to do that, nor would he be cost-efficient in that role. Unfortunately, this was yet another case of Jones' generousity rearing up to bite us.

The Cowboys are confident that 2007 first-round pick Anthony Spencer is ready to step into a starting role. He's an upgrade over Ellis at this point against the run and has the potential to be a good pass rusher. But Spencer missed four games last season, when he was a part-time player, due to knee and hamstring injuries. What happens if he gets hurt?

What happens if Newman gets hurt? What happens if Romo gets hurt? What happens if Jay Ratliff gets hurt? How about Flozell Adams or Marc Colombo?

Depth is a problem all over this team, but we just spent two draft picks on situational pass rushers. If this was Carpenter and Rogers we were talking about it, then I could understand the reluctance.

The Cowboys drafted a pair of DE-to-OLB conversion projects in the fourth round. Ideally, they would combine to play about 20 snaps per game on passing downs. If Victor Butler and Brandon Williams are pushed into bigger roles as rookies, they could be exploited in the running game, which LB coach Reggie Herring acknowledged as a facet of the game in which both fourth-rounders need to improve significantly. Justin Rogers is also on the roster, but he's a solid special teams player who hasn't played a significant NFL down on defense.

Greg Ellis has been playing 3-4 OLB for three years and he gets exploited badly in coverage too. You can't sit there and worry about if a backup is going to get exploited. You do a simple cost analysis. Can they do enough things right to justify cutting Ellis loose. That's it.

That's why it's a little surprising that the Cowboys appear ready to move on from Ellis right now. It seems like the Cowboys would have benefited from monitoring the development of their draft picks during training camp and the preseason before making this decision.

Maybe they're doing Ellis a favor, allowing him an opportunity to spend the bulk of an off-season learning his new team's scheme. Or perhaps they figure its best for all involved to cancel this edition of the annual Greg Ellis Summer Soap Opera before it gets rolling.

It is not surprising at all, as he answered his own confusion here. If Ellis isn't going to be the starter or allowed to compete with Spencer to win the job, he will start his sullen silent protest act and it will affect the rookies as well. If he had a different attitude and accepted a role like Jeffcoat did, I doubt we would be sitting around wondering what to do. Plus, given the fact that Jones is a soft-heart, I am sure he's doing what he thinks is best for Ellis, even though Ellis has not done the same for the Cowboys the past four years he's whined about his role and his pay.

 

[JVita17]

What happens WHEN Newman gets hurt?

Corrected.

 

[AdamJT13]

I thought the cap savings were over 5 million per Adamjt21?

That's correct, according to my information.

For some reason, the Dallas media keep reporting that Ellis has $1.5 million guaranteed. But my information indicates that it was guaranteed only for injury.

 

[Doomsday101]

That's correct, according to my information.

For some reason, the Dallas media keep reporting that Ellis has $1.5 million guaranteed. But my information indicates that it was guaranteed only for injury.

Well given the track record of the Dallas media and your track record I'll go by what you say.

 

[Chief]

I was a Greg Ellis fan at one time and still think he's a good person who happens to have some insecurities and a selfish streak. A good player over the years.

But he needs to be gone from that locker room.

Today.

 

[Stash]

It makes perfect sense. We drafted two rookies and he's going to be an expensive backup who might even poison the waters if he doesn't get his way. If he wasn't going to be either inserted as the starter ahead of Spencer or be permitted to win his job in an open competition, it makes no sense to keep him. This isn't a case of the good old days where a Jim Jeffcoat can come in, play 10-15 snaps and you reap the benefits. Ellis wouldn't be humble enough to do that, nor would he be cost-efficient in that role. Unfortunately, this was yet another case of Jones' generousity rearing up to bite us.

I think it does make sense, rather than putting all of your faith in Spencer and two rookies. I haven't read Ellis saying anything other than he's looking forward to being a Cowboy in 2009. Nowhere has he said he wouldn't take a backup or situational role. And he's still under contract, so he'd have no say in the matter.

What happens if Newman gets hurt? What happens if Romo gets hurt? What happens if Jay Ratliff gets hurt? How about Flozell Adams or Marc Colombo?

Depth is a problem all over this team, but we just spent two draft picks on situational pass rushers. If this was Carpenter and Rogers we were talking about it, then I could understand the reluctance.

We drafted two DE's making the position switch to OLB. I'd rather give them a season to know what they're doing than to rely on them because we just had to get rid of Ellis.

Greg Ellis has been playing 3-4 OLB for three years and he gets exploited badly in coverage too. You can't sit there and worry about if a backup is going to get exploited. You do a simple cost analysis. Can they do enough things right to justify cutting Ellis loose. That's it.

Cost analysis for what exactly? What is this team so desparate to do that they suddenly need to pinch pennies? They already have the money to pay Ware and we all know he'll get a huge bonus and a small salary to start, just like every other one of these huge-money deals.

Ellis is poor in coverage, but how do you think one of the rookies would do? I'm betting worse.


quote=Alexander]It is not surprising at all, as he answered his own confusion here. If Ellis isn't going to be the starter or allowed to compete with Spencer to win the job, he will start his sullen silent protest act and it will affect the rookies as well. If he had a different attitude and accepted a role like Jeffcoat did, I doubt we would be sitting around wondering what to do. Plus, given the fact that Jones is a soft-heart, I am sure he's doing what he thinks is best for Ellis, even though Ellis has not done the same for the Cowboys the past four years he's whined about his role and his pay.[/quote]


I'm not taking it as a guarantee that Ellis wouldn't take a backup role because he's never said it. And if the rookies fall under Ellis' "spell", they should be bounced anyway, although I can't see any of them taking their queue from a guy in his position.

I could see a 'gain' of some sort in a player-for-player trade of Ellis.

Anything else seems a foolish waste to me.

 

[Alexander]

I think it does make sense, rather than putting all of your faith in Spencer and two rookies.

Then you need to do this every year and you'd never give up on a player until they had absolutely nothing left. And we are still paying premium dollar.

I haven't read Ellis saying anything other than he's looking forward to being a Cowboy in 2009. Nowhere has he said he wouldn't take a backup or situational role.

Nowhere has Ellis said he'd be happy about it either. You honestly think he's suddenly decided to accept a backup role? This isn't even considering the simple price it costs for said backup.

And he's still under contract, so he'd have no say in the matter.

He was under contract before and he had no say, but lo and behold, turns out he really did because he used his position on the team, in the lockerroom to his best advantage. He's not nearly the golly gosh nice team player everyone still thinks he is. If he didn't get his way, he would squawk. Even Jones has come the realization that it happens every year.

We drafted two DE's making the position switch to OLB. I'd rather give them a season to know what they're doing than to rely on them because we just had to get rid of Ellis.

So how are we going to get them repetitions if we have a notorious complainer ahead of them in the depth chart? Ellis isn't going to sit out every practice just so he can sit back and take the role you apparently think he'd be okay with.

Cost analysis for what exactly?

How effective Ellis is in coverage, for example. Can these players provide a backup (yes, backup) role and spot duty as rushers at least as well as Ellis could? If so, you take the bad with the good and there is the result of your cost analysis.

You can't have Starter A and plan B at every position on the field. Moreover, you can't always pay for it either. We have the same issue with inexperience at offensive tackle with Free and Brewster. Should we be paranoid either will get hurt and go sign an expensive veteran just in case? No, we are rolling the dice. When you have two young rookies and you have faith in your scouting staff that they got the right players and faith in the coaching staff to prepare them, you can make moves like this. Other teams do it all of the time. We have a hard time doing it and since when has our caution ever paid off? Is it a risk? Of course it is.

What is this team so desparate to do that they suddenly need to pinch pennies? They already have the money to pay Ware and we all know he'll get a huge bonus and a small salary to start, just like every other one of these huge-money deals.

Ellis is poor in coverage, but how do you think one of the rookies would do? I'm betting worse.

They are clearly faster. Ellis' issues were both positioning and speed, but more importantly speed. And since he (and presumeably the rookies too) would be playing backup or spot roles, how often would they be dropping into coverage anyways?

I'm not taking it as a guarantee that Ellis wouldn't take a backup role because he's never said it. And if the rookies fall under Ellis' "spell", they should be bounced anyway, although I can't see any of them taking their queue from a guy in his position.

The team's supposed leader, Union rep and resident grey-beard is someone they'll just ignore? Hardly.

 

[superpunk]

Getting rid of him might cost Jerry Jones an extra hundred dollars in babysitting expenses alone next year.

Count the cost.

 

[Hypnotoad]

Romo
Barber
Newman
Ware

oh wait its the entire roster. The entire roster hasnt helped up to win a playoff game, a name or two from the above list has cost us playoff games tho....

Hes been here since 1998 we haven't won a playoff game. Coaches get fired if they stay on a team too long and don't win playoff games, why not this former first round draft pick. I am just tired of mediocrity. I am tired of Ellis choosing money and his contract over wins and team success. I don't see him as having a positive influence on rookies. Hes not there teaching Spencer or Bobby how to be better players, he only cares about keeping the starting job. Other players will develop into players like him who dont care about winning and only care about $.

 

[Stash]

Then you need to do this every year and you'd never give up on a player until they had absolutely nothing left. And we are still paying premium dollar.

'Premium dollar' meaning what? Again, who's out there to sign that the Cowboys suddenly need the money? They already have more than enough to pay Ware.

Ellis contributed 8 sacks to Spencer's 2 so I don't think you can he's got 'nothing left' and Spencer's ready to step right in.

Nowhere has Ellis said he'd be happy about it either. You honestly think he's suddenly decided to accept a backup role? This isn't even considering the simple price it costs for said backup.



He was under contract before and he had no say, but lo and behold, turns out he really did because he used his position on the team, in the lockerroom to his best advantage. He's not nearly the golly gosh nice team player everyone still thinks he is. If he didn't get his way, he would squawk. Even Jones has come the realization that it happens every year.

I know he's not. And this isn't about making him happy. It's about the team's best interests. If he squawks, fine him. It's well within the team's power and would send a message to any aspiring malcontents. Of course, that would require someone in the organization growing a set, but we can hope for that too.

So how are we going to get them repetitions if we have a notorious complainer ahead of them in the depth chart? Ellis isn't going to sit out every practice just so he can sit back and take the role you apparently think he'd be okay with.

Maybe we should get rid of all of the other linebackers too then? That way the rookies can get all the reps. I don't think Ellis' reps would be too damaging for the youngsters.

How effective Ellis is in coverage, for example. Can these players provide a backup (yes, backup) role and spot duty as rushers at least as well as Ellis could? If so, you take the bad with the good and there is the result of your cost analysis.

You can't have Starter A and plan B at every position on the field. Moreover, you can't always pay for it either. We have the same issue with inexperience at offensive tackle with Free and Brewster. Should we be paranoid either will get hurt and go sign an expensive veteran just in case? No, we are rolling the dice. When you have two young rookies and you have faith in your scouting staff that they got the right players and faith in the coaching staff to prepare them, you can make moves like this. Other teams do it all of the time. We have a hard time doing it and since when has our caution ever paid off? Is it a risk? Of course it is.

We've rolled the dice and been burned before, like with having just Brad Johnson backing up Romo.

They are clearly faster. Ellis' issues were both positioning and speed, but more importantly speed. And since he (and presumeably the rookies too) would be playing backup or spot roles, how often would they be dropping into coverage anyways?

It's hardly all about speed. There's technique, knowledge of the playbook, awareness, and experience involved as well. A key part of Ellis' struggles was also his lack of flexibility but there's certainly no guarantee that two rookies making the position switch will be any better.

The team's supposed leader, Union rep and resident grey-beard is someone they'll just ignore? Hardly.

I guess they'll mindlessly fall under his evil spell? Maybe I give them too much credit in thinking for themselves.

Funny how nobody in this entire organization has the guts to tell someone to just shut up!

If there's a valid reason for Ellis to go, I don't have a problem with it.

But I don't see the value in letting him go for nothing.

 

[cowboyjoe]

I would rather we keep him because I think he has more value to the team than what we could get out of a trade. However if the object is to clean house of the squeaky wheels then I say do what you feel you have to do.

totally agree, i heard last year in a big game that the cowboys lost, that alan ball came in and tapped greg ellis on the rear end for him to come out of the game in subsititution; greg ellis refused by time ball got time out called, time out had already ran out and cowboys lost a time out, along with delay of game penalty

so if thats true, i dont want greg on the team;

 

[TheCount]

That's correct, according to my information.

For some reason, the Dallas media keep reporting that Ellis has $1.5 million guaranteed. But my information indicates that it was guaranteed only for injury.

Well that explains why he has been given "Tike Off", they don't want a phantom camp injury.

 

[cobra]

Finacially makes sense.
Starting Spencer makes sense.
Letting the rookies get experience with backup reps makes sense.
To be nice to Greg Ellis it makes sense.
To avoid whining that effect chemsitry it makes sense.
To get younger and faster it makes sense.


The only two negatives here are that (1) he is apparently a great coach and mentor to the young'ins, but surely someone else can fill that role and we *do* have coaches to do that; and (2) he can still be productive as security if Spencer gets hurt.

At this point, I think the upside of cutting him outweighs the downside, so I'd do it. I'd love to get a draft pick for him, but that's just being greedy.