Do people realize

[jnday]

The Tampa 2 is based on getting pressure with your front four. Having a revolving door on the DL is beyond huge.

This team didn't have the front four to run this system from day one. That is a problem brought on by Garrett and Jerry. A well run team runs schemes that fit their players best. The Tampa Two was one of the worst schemes that could be used to get the most out of the talent on the team. The scheme didn't fit the healthy players or those injured players.

 

[Idgit]

How much blame we place on Garrett depends on how much responsibility we think he actually has within organization. Certain posters have argued ad nauseum that Jerry is just a figurehead and Garrett is the most important voice on the team. If those posters are correct, Garrett bears the onus of blame for all talent shortcomings and all inabilities to improve deficient areas.

Conversely, if those posters are wrong and Garrett does not have such power, we could reasonably argue Jerry should go out and find a new coach he can trust with those powers.

I'm quite certain that Parcells and Phillips blew leads from time to time, but they weren't setting records for improbability of loss.

Well, certain posters will argue anything, it doesn't mean they're right.
it's entirely possible the talent deficiencies were sufficient enough that it actually took several off seasons to address them. Jason tackled the OTs, then the CBs, and then the WR group and interior OL pretty much in that order, leaving the DL to the coming offseason. That's still pretty much the order I'd have addressed things in. We just ended up with snake-eyes on the DL this year with Ware turning into a pumpkin the same season we lost Spencer, and multiple key role players. That's tough to overcome.

But we've got a guy with a plan and who works well with the owner and who's got a track record of bringing in young players and working within a very tight salary cap. I'd wager you'd have a hard time making a convincing argument that a candidate Jerry trusts enough to make the talent decisions on his own actually exists, much less that Jerry can find him and work effectively with him. I'd say the chances are a lot higher we'd end up with a worse situation than we've got right now.

As to the improbability of losses, I'm not sure how we'd measure improbability in this case, but I'd put that road playoff loss to SEA at the top of almost any list. The Terry Glenn fumble late in our own end zone, the Witten first down that was reversed. The slick football on the hold. All against a team that was fielding street free agents at starting CB positions. That's about as freak as they come. When your HoF HC says the team is dumb and he doesn't know why (or whatever his quote was), that's really saying something. And, not to be a broken record, but almost none of these heartbreaking losses happen if we can play even middling pass defense. It seems heartbreaking because we take the leads, and then we just can't hold them. It's not rocket science to say that if you fix the pass defense you fix the heartbreak problem. If you replace the coaching staff and bring in a new offense and defensive scheme, you still have the pass defense problem, and you've introduced a whole mess of uncertainty on top of that. I'm not sure that's necessarily an improvement.

 

[Coy]

I like Selvie a lot, but I think he is a great backup rather than a solid starter. I think Spencer's run defense is significantly better than Selvie's but it is kind of an apples to oranges comparison. Selvie has 39 tackles and 7 sacks this year (in 15 games) while Spencer had 95 tackles and 11 sacks in 14 games last year.

Of course Spencer is better but he isn't the difference from an all time worst Defense and a good or even average Defense so it shouldn't be an excuse.

 

[Kaiser]

That's not the argument. This was never about whether or not Jerry could evaluate talent. He's had his shares of hits and misses.

So you didn't read your own post? The one I replied to where you wrote this?

Case in point: Jerry felt so good about Quincy Carter he spent a second round draft pick on him. Would anyone else have spent a second round draft pick on Quincy Carter? Did he get another starting gig after he left Dallas?

 

[ScipioCowboy]

So you didn't read your own post? The one I replied to where you wrote this?

Case in point: Jerry felt so good about Quincy Carter he spent a second round draft pick on him. Would anyone else have spent a second round draft pick on Quincy Carter? Did he get another starting gig after he left Dallas?

Speaking of reading posts, it would behoove you to read posts in their entirety before responding to them rather than just clipping out one section. I addressed your questions later on in the same post:

http://cowboyszone.com/threads/do-people-realize.278825/page-3#post-5373419

 

[Kaiser]

Of course Spencer is better but he isn't the difference from an all time worst Defense and a good or even average Defense so it shouldn't be an excuse.

Totally agree, my point on Selvie was a little off topic. But the OP was the difference between rotating in Crawford or Bass or what they have now, which is rotating in a guy that unloading a Pepsi Truck last week.

 

[ScipioCowboy]

Well, certain posters will argue anything, it doesn't mean they're right.
it's entirely possible the talent deficiencies were sufficient enough that it actually took several off seasons to address them. Jason tackled the OTs, then the CBs, and then the WR group and interior OL pretty much in that order, leaving the DL to the coming offseason. That's still pretty much the order I'd have addressed things in. We just ended up with snake-eyes on the DL this year with Ware turning into a pumpkin the same season we lost Spencer, and multiple key role players. That's tough to overcome.

But we've got a guy with a plan and who works well with the owner and who's got a track record of bringing in young players and working within a very tight salary cap. I'd wager you'd have a hard time making a convincing argument that a candidate Jerry trusts enough to make the talent decisions on his own actually exists, much less that Jerry can find him and work effectively with him. I'd say the chances are a lot higher we'd end up with a worse situation than we've got right now.

As to the improbability of losses, I'm not sure how we'd measure improbability in this case, but I'd put that road playoff loss to SEA at the top of almost any list. The Terry Glenn fumble late in our own end zone, the Witten first down that was reversed. The slick football on the hold. All against a team that was fielding street free agents at starting CB positions. That's about as freak as they come. When your HoF HC says the team is dumb and he doesn't know why (or whatever his quote was), that's really saying something. And, not to be a broken record, but almost none of these heartbreaking losses happen if we can play even middling pass defense. It seems heartbreaking because we take the leads, and then we just can't hold them. It's not rocket science to say that if you fix the pass defense you fix the heartbreak problem. If you replace the coaching staff and bring in a new offense and defensive scheme, you still have the pass defense problem, and you've introduced a whole mess of uncertainty on top of that. I'm not sure that's necessarily an improvement.

What was improbable about the Seattle loss? At no point in that game did the Cowboys have more than a one score lead?

 

[Idgit]

Of course Spencer is better but he isn't the difference from an all time worst Defense and a good or even average Defense so it shouldn't be an excuse.

First, it's not an excuse to use context in evaluating the job the defensive coaches have done. For a defense predicated on pressure, to lose multiple starting pressure players before the season starts is going to affect the performance of the unit on the field. Look at the WAS special teams unit, for example. They were pretty good last season. They're bad this season--really bad--because they are completely bereft of talent because of WAS's cap penalty. You have to look at not just the play of the player, but the reasons why they play the way they do. It's pretty unreasonable to fault Rod Marinelli, for example, for the quality of DL play we go this season when you look at the job he's done. Most, it think, would consider him a credit to the organization despite his unit being a signifiant weakness on the team.

 

[Kaiser]

Speaking of reading posts, it would behoove you to read posts in their entirety before responding to them rather than just clipping out one section. I addressed your questions later on in the same post:

http://cowboyszone.com/threads/do-people-realize.278825/page-3#post-5373419

You made two points and I replied to two points - then you immediately contradicted yourself. The logic trap you have dug for yourself doesn't get any better by running for words like "behoove".

 

[Idgit]

What was improbable about the Seattle loss? At no point in that game did the Cowboys have more than a one score lead?

Well, I just outlined all the plays I consider improbable. The size of the lead one way or another really doesn't have anything to do with how improbable the outcomes of specific plays are. We had a lot of bizarre things go wrong to help us lose that game.

The same in the 2007 playoff loss to the Giants with the Crayton drop, the missed route adjustment, the phantom grounding call on the final drive. We've been breaking hearts in the DFW area under the last three coaches, one of who is a HoF'er.

 

[ScipioCowboy]

You made two points and I replied to two points - then you immediately contradicted yourself. The logic trap you have dug for yourself doesn't get any better by running for words like "behoove".

Speaking of logic, according to yours, Joey Harrington is a better player than Tony Romo simply because one team regarded Harrington highly enough to spend a first round draft pick on him while Romo went the UDF route.

 

[ScipioCowboy]

Well, I just outlined all the plays I consider improbable. The size of the lead one way or another really doesn't have anything to do with how improbable the outcomes of specific plays are. We had a lot of bizarre things go wrong to help us lose that game.

The same in the 2007 playoff loss to the Giants with the Crayton drop, the missed route adjustment, the phantom grounding call on the final drive. We've been breaking hearts in the DFW area under the last three coaches, one of who is a HoF'er.

Dropped passes, missed field goals, safeties, and blown calls happen fairly regularly. Losing despite a 23 point second half lead -- not so much.

 

[50cent]

That Garrett has this team controlling their own destiny overcoming a defense that has started 18 different players on the DL? All of our LBs have missed time. We have been dinged on the back end too.

The Eagles have NO PLAYERS ON IR and have only lost 30 GAMES by injured starters.

Dallas has 7 PLAYERS ON IR. And God knows how many lost games but the DL alone has surpassed the Eagles total.

With guys on D that should be at Home Depot giving up yards and points at a record pace we have somehow gotten ourselves to 5-0 in the NFC East and a win and you are in on Sunday night.

Sorry but that is not bad coaching.

I for one would love to see what this team could do with a defensive minded draft and some luck for once on the injury front. Because with even a middle of the pack defense this team would not be playing Sunday for a spot in the playoffs, they'd be playing for the #1 seed.

Then you realize coaching was the main reason we blew a 23-6 lead vs GB.

 

[Nightman]

Then you realize coaching was the main reason we blew a 23-6 lead vs GB.

No, it was the awful play of the defense that had zero LBers of value and gave up 5 straight TD drives that totaled 312 yds and took only 14 minutes off the clock.

 

[50cent]

No, it was the awful play of the defense that had zero LBers of value and gave up 5 straight TD drives that totaled 312 yds and took only 14 minutes off the clock.

Then you realize that other than the 7 runs called after a 23-6 lead that the incompletions/Ints from passing too much contributed to some of that 14 minutes still being on the clock for GB to score.

 

[kramskoi]

The team is tied for 4th in the league in turnover ratio, which is arguably driven by luck. Other than the NFCE being complete garbage this year, there is no other reason we are even having this conversation.

The division has not been this bad since 1998, when after blanking the division 8-0, Dallas went on to lose in the first round at home. The third time was the charm for Jake Plummer. Embarrassing actually. I always thought that if Garrett fails to win the division this year that he may never manage the feat.

In the end, Garrett made choices...enough of them that have been horrible enough to indeed wonder if all along he was the wrong man for the current situation the Cowboys find themselves in, talent and salary cap-wise. Incredibly, with a division win, regardless of playoff outcomes, he stands a reasonable chance of returning next year.

That said, I don't think that the Garrett-Romo tandem is one that will reach the pinnacle of the sport. I just don't see it, especially with the Cowboys' philosophy on running the football.

 

[BigStar]

You mean the opening day defense with Spencer and Ratliff? Try again.

Ratliff?

 

[BigStar]

Show me another team that has started 18 different players on the DL and you might have a point.

Didn't GB win a SB with this injury bug by having superior Offense?

 

[Nightman]

Then you realize that other than the 7 runs called after a 23-6 lead that the incompletions/Ints from passing too much contributed to some of that 14 minutes still being on the clock for GB to score.

Wrong. Green Bay scored on their first 5 drives. If Dallas didn't go on two long scoring drives, GB would've had the lead early in the 4th Q.

 

[BigStar]

Show me another team that has started 18 different players on the DL and you might have a point.

Really? We are missing Spencer. If JG wasn't clued into the Ratliff situation before opening day, that just shows the level of respect JJ has for his "boy".