Dustin Vaughn and the Dearth of NFL QBs

[gmoney112]

NFL has changed as well. Not sure when you say old style like the wishbone offense and other forms of option football?

He probably meant where teams aren't trying to fit as many WR on the field as possible. Most college football has become about spacing and ease of playcalling. How many times are QB's in the college game actually audibling and calling out coverages at the LoS? It's basically, spread 'em out as much as possible, and sling it to the open guy.

The OP put it well. It's killing the drafted QB's chances in the NFL, where being football smart is just as, if not more, important than your arm strength (as long as it's NFL quality). Talented guys at the top of the draft now, by and large, don't come from anything resembling an NFL system, then they're plugged into a team that's pretty terrible and you have the devastating 1-2 punch of a failed quarterback career.

A QB is never a given, but there have been so many incredible flops and busts the last few years, I'd almost sit my first round QB behind a vet for a year even if it meant me going 0-16.

That's why I think the Virtual Reality thing is pretty cool, i'd load up about 5 real game histories of a variety of the best defenses in the league, and drill the backups on it repeatedly. You can drill it on paper or on a board a lot, but "seeing" it, and seeing the defense set their own adjustments in real time is probably a lot more valuable, i'd imagine.

 

[Doomsday101]

JoeBoBBY may correct me but I think he's referring to the large overall conversion to the spread offense by college teams over the past 20 years.

True there was conversion to other types of offense once teams left behind things like the wishbone and sooner or later that will change. College football dates back to the mid 1800's it is about as rich in tradition as it gets.

 

[Doomsday101]

The traditions from before the NFL actually involve student-athletes and players couldn't look at college as simply a step towards the pros. JFF never had to be a student...he hardly had to study football.

Old college traditions died with TV contracts and conference money, for the most part, which coincided with the birth of the NFL. So i'm not sure what traditions you're talking about tha

fine in your mind it died. I'm not going to argue an opinion.

 

[DFWJC]

He probably meant where teams aren't trying to fit as many WR on the field as possible. Most college football has become about spacing and ease of playcalling. How many times are QB's in the college game actually audibling and calling out coverages at the LoS? It's basically, spread 'em out as much as possible, and sling it to the open guy.

The OP put it well. It's killing the drafted QB's chances in the NFL, where being football smart is just as, if not more, important than your arm strength (as long as it's NFL quality). Talented guys at the top of the draft now, by and large, don't come from anything resembling an NFL system, then they're plugged into a team that's pretty terrible and you have the devastating 1-2 punch of a failed quarterback career.

A QB is never a given, but there have been so many incredible flops and busts the last few years, I'd almost sit my first round QB behind a vet for a year even if it meant me going 0-16.

That's why I think the Virtual Reality thing is pretty cool, i'd load up about 5 real game histories of a variety of the best defenses in the league, and drill the backups on it repeatedly. You can drill it on paper or on a board a lot, but "seeing" it, and seeing the defense set their own adjustments in real time is probably a lot more valuable, i'd imagine.

I think it was extremely rare and almost non-existent in the past for college QBs to audible. Nothing has changed there.
In fact, I bet a higher percentage audible now than before--though that number is still very low.
I know for sure that Shane Carden audibled a lot at ECU. But he was a senior.

Not ever taking the ball from center is a setback for many now though. Not any kind of huge setback, but a setback nevertheless.

 

[Doomsday101]

He probably meant where teams aren't trying to fit as many WR on the field as possible. Most college football has become about spacing and ease of playcalling. How many times are QB's in the college game actually audibling and calling out coverages at the LoS? It's basically, spread 'em out as much as possible, and sling it to the open guy.

The OP put it well. It's killing the drafted QB's chances in the NFL, where being football smart is just as, if not more, important than your arm strength (as long as it's NFL quality). Talented guys at the top of the draft now, by and large, don't come from anything resembling an NFL system, then they're plugged into a team that's pretty terrible and you have the devastating 1-2 punch of a failed quarterback career.

A QB is never a given, but there have been so many incredible flops and busts the last few years, I'd almost sit my first round QB behind a vet for a year even if it meant me going 0-16.

That's why I think the Virtual Reality thing is pretty cool, i'd load up about 5 real game histories of a variety of the best defenses in the league, and drill the backups on it repeatedly. You can drill it on paper or on a board a lot, but "seeing" it, and seeing the defense set their own adjustments in real time is probably a lot more valuable, i'd imagine.

yes it changes it always has and it will continue to change. When you say old time college football? heck I grew up during the time when most college teams ran the option and there was hardly any passing taking place. It goes through changes it always will. As for what it is doing to the NFL? it is not the obligation of the NCAA to cater to the NFL. NFL has gone though changed and to a certain extent less exciting than college.

 

[Doomsday101]

This is the kind of ball I watched in college, they were not concerned that the QB would hardly throw the ball the entire game, but it was not the job of the Longhorns to accommodate the NFL and that is still the case today. NFL team choose to throw young QB to the wolves without giving them time to teach them the pro game that is the fault of the NFL. Maybe they should take some time with these young QB as many teams use to do. Guys like Joe Montana did not come in day 1 they sat they learned now it is sink or swim but that is the NFL own fault.

 

[Doc50]

This is the kind of ball I watched in college, they were not concerned that the QB would hardly throw the ball the entire game, but it was not the job of the Longhorns to accommodate the NFL and that is still the case today. NFL team choose to throw young QB to the wolves without giving them time to teach them the pro game that is the fault of the NFL. Maybe they should take some time with these young QB as many teams use to do. Guys like Joe Montana did not come in day 1 they sat they learned now it is sink or swim but that is the NFL own fault.[/quote

Brings back some great memories.

Four years after I graduated, my HS team thought we were going to state...........then we met up with the Tyler Rose at regionals.

 

[Doomsday101]

Earl had a knack of doing that. lol

 

[JoeBoBBY]

NFL has changed as well. Not sure when you say old style like the wishbone offense and other forms of option football?

Yeah the NFL has changed to; Pretty much everything has changed dramatically imho. Some weird mix of hi tech, global instability, major shifts in social attitudes and culture, and everything else....some of it is good, most of it is bad. Things have definitely changed. And I may just be getting older , all older generations say this, but I actually think there is data to support that argument. Of course there is data to support any argument these days. Just a click of a button.

But back on point, I love the NFL now more then I ever have. I used to watch all the sports. Now its just the NFL. NBA is boring, baseball is nice for a day or night out of the house, but I dont care who wins...Hockey is in flux. And College football is a video game. All the way down to the uniforms....mehhhh , I dont like it.

But the NFL is good. I cant get enough.

 

[JoeBoBBY]

JoeBoBBY may correct me but I think he's referring to the large overall conversion to the spread offense by college teams over the past 20 years.

Yes. Thats exactly what I am referring to. For the most part.

There are some other things, but for the most part it gives me an arena football aftertaste.

However, many like that style. And I am not putting it down, its just not for me.

 

[ShiningStar]

Look what happened to AZ last year. Without a QB, you're done. And that team won by Defense.

so true, good point

 

[Idgit]

This thread title sounds like a Harry Potter novel. Like, a bad one.

 

[65fastback2plus2]

OK, so going with the premise that good NFL QB's are short supply, what exactly does one need?

1) Good Arm -- Must be able to throw the deep out, have a quick release, and have compact mechanics. Needs to also have feel for touch passes and the deep ball. True spread offenses have a 5 man receiver tree that requires various types of passes in order to be successful.

2) Good Head -- Must be able to read defensive sets and shifts, pick up keys and stunts, and consistently make the right decision and throw.
The various offensive patterns and defensive strategies one sees in a spread will require an exceptional amount of reps and film time in order to master.
The average high school spread QB has a much greater understanding of O & D strategies and tactics than their earlier counterparts, due to the complexity of the systems. The head also includes leadership skills, which the excellent knowledge of O & D tends to build. Knowing how and when to run will keep a good QB from being separated from his head.

3) Good Feet -- Must be able to at least briefly avoid the rush and blitz, while quickly finding targets. Some HS QBs end up running more than the system would prefer, only because their head or arm or OL are subpar; unless the QB is one of the best athletes on his team (frequently true), this will usually not be successful.

4) Good Body -- Must have the athleticism to maintain balance and co-ordination, withstand punishment, and show durability.
Spread QBs will definitely only survive if they have these qualities.

So, while I don't disagree with the initial premise, I would say that the level of development of QBs from a true Spread is far beyond what we used to see coming from a wishbone, I, T, veer, or read-option system.

The reasons I think they aren't necessarily ready to start in the NFL for 3-4 years have more to do with physical and emotional maturity, as well as the obvious differences in speed and complexity of the pros. Some don't initially have the leadership qualities necessary to command older prima donna rich guys. Some are not initially strong enough to withstand the pounding, and need the strength program just like any other rookie.

The thing I love about football is its constant evolution.
Last year's passing game strategies will be more successfully attacked and will need to be modified.
The most dominant defense will be dissected by 31 teams, and new strategies and tactics will emerge.
The game is in a constant state of flux, and the QB has the most difficult job.

Just my opinion, but it seems that today's high school QBs from Texas who are being recruited in their highest numbers nationally are more prepared for the college level than ever before, and the Spread has had a positive impact on that. As the college offenses move toward more complexity as well, this should bode well for the continued development of NFL-caliber talent.

i used these requirements when picking out a wife

 

[Doc50]

i used these requirements when picking out a wife

If she can cook and throw the deep ball, you've got an all-pro.

 

[Section446]

Sadly, Vaughn could probably step in right now and outplay Weeden.

 

[big dog cowboy]

Sadly, Vaughn could probably step in right now and outplay Weeden.

From earlier OTA's it sounds like Weeden is doing much better with professional coaching instead of that stuff they teach in Cleveland. Still rooting for Vaughn big time however.

 

[Alexander]

Maybe they should take some time with these young QB as many teams use to do. Guys like Joe Montana did not come in day 1 they sat they learned now it is sink or swim but that is the NFL own fault.

It is really more of a result of how contracts were structured. Back in those days, you could carry a player indefinitely. He could not be a free agent after three-four years. That was how you would see players that were career backups finally get their shot, ala Danny White. Even Dallas had to gamble and overpay Romo just for the glimmer of what he showed before he ever threw a regular season pass.

It is just a bad environment to develop a QB now. The product is not as finished coming out of college, they have to basically start over. More importantly many teams are not equipped with a good coaching infrastructure to develop them. I also feel a lot of teams see what they want to see when evaluating a QB and project what they can do, versus decide to tailor what they actually can to into how the offense will be run. Shanahan did an excellent job with that with Griffin at first and Carroll did the same thing with Wilson, just with better results.

There is also the "fear" that you are developing the player for someone else, especially if you already have a good QB. All in all, you cannot afford to be afraid to toe dip into the pool every year and bring in as many bodies as you can. Otherwise you are basically developing clipboard holders.

 

[Longboysfan]

Like I was saying to other football fans at work. College does not develop QB's.
They are in a win now situation and will not take the time to develop a QB.
Long gone are the days of an Aikman, Montana, Manning QB.
Romo was a find at a lower level where they did not need the QB to one read throw or run right away - which seems to be the pattern of most QB's of the last 10 years.
Maybe that is the place to find the QB's of the future NFL. Lower level schools where they develop. Bring them in and give them 3 years in a system and see what happens.

 

[Doomsday101]

It is really more of a result of how contracts were structured. Back in those days, you could carry a player indefinitely. He could not be a free agent after three-four years. That was how you would see players that were career backups finally get their shot, ala Danny White. Even Dallas had to gamble and overpay Romo just for the glimmer of what he showed before he ever threw a regular season pass.

It is just a bad environment to develop a QB now. The product is not as finished coming out of college, they have to basically start over. More importantly many teams are not equipped with a good coaching infrastructure to develop them. I also feel a lot of teams see what they want to see when evaluating a QB and project what they can do, versus decide to tailor what they actually can to into how the offense will be run. Shanahan did an excellent job with that with Griffin at first and Carroll did the same thing with Wilson, just with better results.

There is also the "fear" that you are developing the player for someone else, especially if you already have a good QB. All in all, you cannot afford to be afraid to toe dip into the pool every year and bring in as many bodies as you can. Otherwise you are basically developing clipboard holders.

I'm sure that plays a big part but I also think it you are making a big investment on a QB then in the long run I think you are better off bringing them up a bit more slowly to give them and your team a better chance of success. Sure there will be some who show enough to get them in quickly but not all players or QB develop at the same rate. I would rather sit a guy for a season and work with them and in developing them so they have a decent chance for success. I think some of these guys get beat to hell, lose confidence and struggle to ever get it going.

 

[erod]

From earlier OTA's it sounds like Weeden is doing much better with professional coaching instead of that stuff they teach in Cleveland. Still rooting for Vaughn big time however.

I think we got a false read on Weeden that ugly Sunday. First, the pass rush that day was all over him; I'm not sure Romo would have fared much better. The overall performance of the team was probably the worst of the season. And second, Arizona was no joke before Palmer got hurt. They can flat bring it.

The limited time he played against Washington, Weeden looked OK.