ESPN: Goodell's Conduct Policy Has Some Gray Areas

theogt

Surrealist
Messages
45,846
Reaction score
5,912
Goodell's conduct policy has some gray areas


By Floyd Reese
ESPN.com
(Archive)

Updated: June 16, 2007Recently, the NFL's personal conduct policy has been widely covered in the media. Before I give my stance on this issue, let me first make a few things clear.

• I am in full support of commissioner Roger Goodell's new conduct policy.
• I support the NFL's discipline of Adam "Pacman" Jones and Chris Henry.
• Although I am not a lawyer, I understand the relationship between the league, clubs, agents and lawyers.
• Possibly the two most important elements to a player and his career are money and playing time.
• I harbor no ill-will against Tank Johnson, Jones or Henry.
• Consistency is by far the most frustrating part of the league-mandated policy. The same incidents should face the same punishment with no exceptions.

Although never convicted of a crime since drafted, Jones will miss a year of compensation based on the frequency and magnitude of his brushes with the law, and the negative impact they have had on the league. I completely understand and support the logic. Even though Jones may not have a record, he has certainly failed to conduct himself with the integrity that this league's players, coaches, staff and alumni would expect.

Henry had a combination of convictions and incidents, but they were less severe and fewer in number than Jones'. Therefore, a lesser, but still significant amount of discipline fits the program.

Then we have Johnson, who has been accused of a number of serious crimes and also has been convicted and sentenced to prison time. Yet Johnson received an eight-game suspension, meaning he will still play and get paid for a half of the 2007 season.

The logic escapes me. What is the lesson? Admit guilt and do your time so you can still play and, more importantly, get paid? Is the severity of the incident less of an issue? Have frequency and publicity become the key elements? Isn't being convicted of a crime much more severe than being a suspect? Did the fact that Johnson has paid his debt to society have any bearing on the penalty?

The roles of the union and the courts are out of the commissioner's hands, but the consistency and logic of the league-mandated policy and punishments are within his scope. I believe a conviction must carry at least as much weight as several nonconvictions. Loss of playing time and salary must be imposed on a basis unique to the NFL, yet easily understood by the public and players. I guarantee a policy based on clear-cut crime-and-punishment parameters would be the best method to curtail these incidents.

To reiterate, the single most important element of this new player conduct policy is consistency. The player's name, position, ability and team should have nothing to do with the disciplinary measures. I completely agree with the severity of the punishment that Jones and Henry received, but I cannot say with complete certainty that Johnson was judged with the same austerity.

Former Tennessee Titans general manager Floyd Reese contributes frequently to ESPN.com.
 

DallasEast

Cowboys 24/7/365
Staff member
Messages
62,320
Reaction score
64,022
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
Goodell's conduct policy has some gray areas

No-Darth_Vader.jpg
 

Hypnotoad

Active Member
Messages
4,649
Reaction score
0
As long as someone applies common sense to the Conduct Policy it will not have any gray area. It isn't a word for word guide you should follow for punishments. The punishments prescribed on players will be fair and just. Someone like Tank Johnson who served his time in prison will get a smaller punishment then someone who is a nuisance, refuses to listen to repeat warnings, and harms the image of the league.

If you start making things consistent then you will end up like the stubborn NBA commissioner who follows the rule of law as written in the books rather then use your common sense and ask yourself, "Does this punishment fit this crime?"
 

theogt

Surrealist
Messages
45,846
Reaction score
5,912
Hypnotoad;1530710 said:
As long as someone applies common sense to the Conduct Policy it will not have any gray area. It isn't a word for word guide you should follow for punishments. The punishments prescribed on players will be fair and just. Someone like Tank Johnson who served his time in prison will get a smaller punishment then someone who is a nuisance, refuses to listen to repeat warnings, and harms the image of the league.

If you start making things consistent then you will end up like the stubborn NBA commissioner who follows the rule of law as written in the books rather then use your common sense and ask yourself, "Does this punishment fit this crime?"
The bolded portion does not at all jive with the rest of the post. It's perfectly fine if you want to argue for an inconsistent policy, so long as you admit it and can justify it. But don't pretend it isn't inconsistent or doesn't have gray areas.
 

burmafrd

Well-Known Member
Messages
43,820
Reaction score
3,379
Like judges are consistent all the time? One judge is lenient, another is not. BUT the law says that thats ok. Just like the CBA says what Goodell does is ok. Johnson has ADMITTED his guilt; and has ADMITTED that he was bad and has no excuses. Just like in the legal system, someone who does that will get better treatment then idiots like Pacman who keep claiming that they are really not bad, and did not do it, etc. Seems logical to me. Maybe not right in some respects, and I would be happy to drop the hammer just as hard on a repentent as someone who is defiant, but for those that keep screaming about due process and so forth, its very hypocritical for them to criticize THAT.
 

theogt

Surrealist
Messages
45,846
Reaction score
5,912
burmafrd;1530716 said:
Like judges are consistent all the time? One judge is lenient, another is not. BUT the law says that thats ok. Just like the CBA says what Goodell does is ok.
No, it doesn't. It overturns them if they overstep their boundaries. Who overturns Goodell if he oversteps his boundaries? Oh, that's right -- appeals are made directly to -- GOODELL.

But let's go with a classic, two wrongs make a right point. That always works, right?

Johnson has ADMITTED his guilt; and has ADMITTED that he was bad and has no excuses. Just like in the legal system, someone who does that will get better treatment then idiots like Pacman who keep claiming that they are really not bad, and did not do it, etc. Seems logical to me. Maybe not right in some respects, and I would be happy to drop the hammer just as hard on a repentent as someone who is defiant, but for those that keep screaming about due process and so forth, its very hypocritical for them to criticize THAT.
Hence, the article.
 

Hypnotoad

Active Member
Messages
4,649
Reaction score
0
theogt;1530712 said:
The bolded portion does not at all jive with the rest of the post. It's perfectly fine if you want to argue for an inconsistent policy, so long as you admit it and can justify it. But don't pretend it isn't inconsistent or doesn't have gray areas.

A policy like this needs "flexibility" not "consistency." You don't know what possible combination of situations you might run into and it wouldn't be wise to start preparing punishment guidelines just to scare players and deter unsupported behavior. Pacman was free to do whatever he wanted, because he was winning games. Now there is precedent to the players that says....even if your a somebody you will get suspended. That alone should be enough deterrent.

EDIT: In addition to what Pacman has done AFTER being drafted, he also lied about previous investigations BEFORE getting drafted. That lie fell under the previous conduct policy and his punishment should have been longer just because of it.

Floyd Reese was the titans General Manager that drafted Pacman Jones.
 

burmafrd

Well-Known Member
Messages
43,820
Reaction score
3,379
Love how all those that kept pointing to the legal system now suddenly say that is not right. AND you are full of crap OGT. Very rarely is a sentence changed by an appeals court unless it is very outrageous. Judges give more lenient sentences then the law allows a lot. Goodell is being quite consistent comparatively.
 

theogt

Surrealist
Messages
45,846
Reaction score
5,912
Hypnotoad;1530719 said:
A policy like this needs "flexibility" not "consistency." You don't know what possible combination of situations you might run into and it wouldn't be wise to start preparing punishment guidelines just to scare players and deter unsupported behavior. Pacman was free to do whatever he wanted, because he was winning games. Now there is precedent to the players that says....even if your a somebody you will get suspended. That alone should be enough deterrent.
It's not about deterrence. You can get that with consistency. The question is, how does flexibility that leads to inconsistency trump foreknowledge in this circumstance?
 

theogt

Surrealist
Messages
45,846
Reaction score
5,912
burmafrd;1530720 said:
Love how all those that kept pointing to the legal system now suddenly say that is not right. AND you are full of crap OGT. Very rarely is a sentence changed by an appeals court unless it is very outrageous. Judges give more lenient sentences then the law allows a lot. Goodell is being quite consistent comparatively.
I've worked in the judicial system. I think I know a little bit about it. Thanks, bye.

But again, two wrongs don't make a right. You can't say, "The legal system is flawed so it's okay for the NFL system to be flawed!" That's a horrible argument.
 

burmafrd

Well-Known Member
Messages
43,820
Reaction score
3,379
Less then 1% of all sentences are changed by an appeals court. AND virtually all of THOSE are because the sentence was considered too harsh. Its hard to tell if Johnson is serious and honest about his contrition. Time will tell. I have no problem, frankly, with giving him a chance. Pacman deserves no leeway.
So in that respect as far as I am concerned Goodell so far has been right on the money. Since we are only talking about 3 cases so far.
 

theogt

Surrealist
Messages
45,846
Reaction score
5,912
burmafrd;1530726 said:
Less then 1% of all sentences are changed by an appeals court. AND virtually all of THOSE are because the sentence was considered too harsh.
Really? Considering that 95+% are plea bargains that's amazing. Who would have thought that a negotiated sentence signed off by the defendant would not be overturned on appeal? That truly is remarkable.

Its hard to tell if Johnson is serious and honest about his contrition. Time will tell. I have no problem, frankly, with giving him a chance. Pacman deserves no leeway.

So in that respect as far as I am concerned Goodell so far has been right on the money. Since we are only talking about 3 cases so far.
It's interesting that you admit you have no idea about Johnson's contrition but know for a fact that Pacman deserves no leeway. Judge, jury, and excecutioner you are.
 

burmafrd

Well-Known Member
Messages
43,820
Reaction score
3,379
Yes I am OGT because I have the guts to put it out there. You whine and cry about Pacman. He deserves EVERYTHING he has gotten so far. Your inability to admit that is pathetic and says a lot about you. By the way- I laugh at your comment about haveing experience in the judicial system. Its probably like watching a couple of high school games and then claiming great knowledge about high school football all over the country.
 

theogt

Surrealist
Messages
45,846
Reaction score
5,912
burmafrd;1530729 said:
Yes I am OGT because I have the guts to put it out there. You whine and cry about Pacman. He deserves EVERYTHING he has gotten so far. Your inability to admit that is pathetic and says a lot about you. By the way- I laugh at your comment about haveing experience in the judicial system. Its probably like watching a couple of high school games and then claiming great knowledge about high school football all over the country.
Is it possible for you to make a point without calling me pathetic?

If you noticed, my point isn't that Pacman doesn't deserve to be suspended, but that the league should be consistent in its suspensions.
 

Hypnotoad

Active Member
Messages
4,649
Reaction score
0
theogt;1530721 said:
It's not about deterrence. You can get that with consistency. The question is, how does flexibility that leads to inconsistency trump foreknowledge in this circumstance?

Right now the league is being hit by a storm of misconduct. The new Conduct policy is designed to deter those type of player from being drafted, take away the play time of those currently active, and to kick them out of the league if necessary. There is no need for consistency if you do the right job drafting/punishing players. I don't think one day, suddenly, Payton manning is going to start going to strip clubs and making it rain, bite a cop, or lie about his prior criminal activity. So the need for a consistent set of punishments is not going to effect him or a majority of other players who aren't involved in those kind activities anyway.
 

burmafrd

Well-Known Member
Messages
43,820
Reaction score
3,379
Consistent? HOW? Unless the player committs the SAME infraction, etc in exactly the same way, how do you make it consistent?
By the way my high school analogy is slightly wrong. I should have said your experience with the judicial system is probably the same as going to a high school game then claiming to know all about all football from jr high to the pros.
 

theogt

Surrealist
Messages
45,846
Reaction score
5,912
Hypnotoad;1530733 said:
Right now the league is being hit by a storm of misconduct. The new Conduct policy is designed to deter those type of player from being drafted, take away the play time of those currently active, and to kick them out of the league if necessary. There is no need for consistency if you do the right job drafting/punishing players. I don't think one day, suddenly, Payton manning is going to start going to strip clubs and making it rain, bite a cop, or lie about his prior criminal activity. So the need for a consistent set of punishments is not going to effect him or a majority of other players who aren't involved in those kind activities anyway.
I'll repeat. You can deter behavior while maintaining consistency. You completely dodged my question.
 

theogt

Surrealist
Messages
45,846
Reaction score
5,912
burmafrd;1530734 said:
Consistent? HOW? Unless the player committs the SAME infraction, etc in exactly the same way, how do you make it consistent?
By the way my high school analogy is slightly wrong. I should have said your experience with the judicial system is probably the same as going to a high school game then claiming to know all about all football from jr high to the pros.
Please see the original article posted.
 

Hypnotoad

Active Member
Messages
4,649
Reaction score
0
theogt;1530735 said:
I'll repeat. You can deter behavior while maintaining consistency. You completely dodged my question.

I guess ill restate what I just said, Why would you need to limit your actions within consistency? If you can eliminate the problem do you need instructions on how to deal with the problem?

I guess thats what this policy attempts to do. It attempts to deal with the bad seeds, keep them out of the league (punishments for teams who drafted the bad seed), keep them off the field (suspensions for the bad seed) , or kick them out of the league (bans for the bad seed). So you don't need to box yourself in with your own guidelines.
 

theogt

Surrealist
Messages
45,846
Reaction score
5,912
Hypnotoad;1530739 said:
I guess ill restate what I just said, Why would you need to limit your actions within consistency? If you can eliminate the problem do you need instructions on how to deal with the problem?

I guess thats what this policy attempts to do. It attempts to deal with the bad seeds, keep them out of the league, keep them off the field, or kick them out of the league. So you don't need guidelines.
Because there's utility in knowing what punishment will follow from your actions. Knowing the possible consequences of your own behavior is fundamental to an organized, functioning society.

If you want to override consistency, then you should have a valid justification. Your justification appears to be deterrence. But you can have deterrence with consistent punishment. With that in mind, how does deterrence justify inconsistency in a way that isn't maintained through consistency? Or do you have another justification for inconsistency?
 
Top