Give me dominant DL over super star QB

RonnieT24

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,503
Reaction score
21,564
The point was they had both this year, not just one or the other.

I'm not sure why we keep wanting to turn everything into an either/or. Tampa Bay should have proved conclusively that no matter how good your defense is, if your QB is a slappy you aint winnin nothin.. KC should prove conclusively that no matter how great your QB is if you can't block for him you aint winnin nothin. It's a team game.. This really shouldn't be that hard to grasp. If you suck at any facet of the game your chances of winning it all diminish greatly. The more phases you suck at the less chance you have of winning. And yes, the inverse is also true. The more phases you're good at the greater your chance of winning. This constant need to boil everything down to one position or the other is silly. Games are played 22 on 22 on Sundays. If more of my 22 are better than the guy in front of him on Sunday I'm generally going top win the game. No sane person would argue that Brady is better than Mahomes at this stage of their careers.. But he had a LOT better team around him on Sunday. Give Mahomes his starting tackles and I think the game plays out very differently. Just like giving Dak or whoever we have at QB Tyron, Zack and Collins next season will make them that much better and give us a much higher probability of winning.
 

Parcells4Life

Well-Known Member
Messages
5,484
Reaction score
9,333
I'm not sure why we keep wanting to turn everything into an either/or. Tampa Bay should have proved conclusively that no matter how good your defense is, if your QB is a slappy you aint winnin nothin.. KC should prove conclusively that no matter how great your QB is if you can't block for him you aint winnin nothin. It's a team game.. This really shouldn't be that hard to grasp. If you suck at any facet of the game your chances of winning it all diminish greatly. The more phases you suck at the less chance you have of winning. And yes, the inverse is also true. The more phases you're good at the greater your chance of winning. This constant need to boil everything down to one position or the other is silly. Games are played 22 on 22 on Sundays. If more of my 22 are better than the guy in front of him on Sunday I'm generally going top win the game. No sane person would argue that Brady is better than Mahomes at this stage of their careers.. But he had a LOT better team around him on Sunday. Give Mahomes his starting tackles and I think the game plays out very differently. Just like giving Dak or whoever we have at QB Tyron, Zack and Collins next season will make them that much better and give us a much higher probability of winning.
Would Kirk Cousins/Derek Carr have beaten KC on Sunday with that defense? No you can’t have Heinicke or Jameis 30 Turnover Winston back there. But I think with a defense that dominant Cousins or Carr would have achieved same result.
 

RonnieT24

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,503
Reaction score
21,564
Would Kirk Cousins/Derek Carr have beaten KC on Sunday with that defense? No you can’t have Heinicke or Jameis 30 Turnover Winston back there. But I think with a defense that dominant Cousins or Carr would have achieved same result.

Actually I think it's closer to 40 turnover Winston when you add in his fumbles. As for the Cousins/Carr question? I dunno man.. those guys have shown a propensity to choke when the heat is on.. Rodgers, Wilson, Dak, Watson? Maybe.. guys who DON'T typically turn it over a ton and make good decisions at crunch time like that .. Trying to think of others I might be forgetting. I'm sure there are. Still I don't want to diminish the extent to which Brady managed the game with his mind. Even without big numbers the value of that cannot be overstated. Getting the offense out of a bad play into a better one.. Throwing the ball away instead of taking a sack.. Pointing out protection issues for the line.. All those things that you don't necessarily see on the stat sheet. I do think there is a list of probably 10-12 QBs who could have won that game given what the Bucs defense was doing to KCs beat up o-line. Scoring more than 9 points against KCs defense is not that high a bar. The only team that failed to score more than that against them this season was the Jets..
 

atlantacowboy

Well-Known Member
Messages
18,076
Reaction score
24,789
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
The point was they had both this year, not just one or the other.

And my point was that the main improvement in the team and the primary reason they won the super bowl was Tom Brady. Thats hardly a controversial opinion. In fact, Brady probably could have signed with 20 other teams and had them in the super bowl. His impact on a team goes far beyond the numbers.
 

RonnieT24

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,503
Reaction score
21,564
And my point was that the main improvement in the team and the primary reason they won the super bowl was Tom Brady. Thats hardly a controversial opinion. In fact, Brady probably could have signed with 20 other teams and had them in the super bowl.

I disagree with that. Maybe 5-6 others but there were not 20 other teams in the league with a defense as good as Tampa's nor a receiving corps as good. The latter being bolstered by adding Gronk and AB..
 

Buzzbait

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,291
Reaction score
11,250
And my point was that the main improvement in the team and the primary reason they won the super bowl was Tom Brady. Thats hardly a controversial opinion. In fact, Brady probably could have signed with 20 other teams and had them in the super bowl. His impact on a team goes far beyond the numbers.

I don't have any problem with that. He's a great QB, but no matter how good he is he still didn't do it all by himself. His OL gave him time to throw, and his defense and the Refs held KC to a measly 9 points. Yes he's a great QB but no QB is a 1 man team. I don't believe the Cowboys are 1 of those "20 other teams" that you spoke of. Brady couldn't have taken the Cowboys to the Super Bowl unless he could walk on water. Our defense was far too worthless, and our OL wouldn't have given him the time to throw that he had with the Bucs.
 

atlantacowboy

Well-Known Member
Messages
18,076
Reaction score
24,789
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
I don't have any problem with that. He's a great QB, but no matter how good he is he still didn't do it all by himself. His OL gave him time to throw, and his defense and the Refs held KC to a measly 9 points. Yes he's a great QB but no QB is a 1 man team. I don't believe the Cowboys are 1 of those "20 other teams" that you spoke of. Brady couldn't have taken the Cowboys to the Super Bowl unless he could walk on water. Our defense was far too worthless, and our OL wouldn't have given him the time to throw that he had with the Bucs.

I think we basically agree. I don't think Belechek and Brady could drag this franchise to a super bowl. Too much bluster and not enough substance from too many key players.
 

Parcells4Life

Well-Known Member
Messages
5,484
Reaction score
9,333
I don't have any problem with that. He's a great QB, but no matter how good he is he still didn't do it all by himself. His OL gave him time to throw, and his defense and the Refs held KC to a measly 9 points. Yes he's a great QB but no QB is a 1 man team. I don't believe the Cowboys are 1 of those "20 other teams" that you spoke of. Brady couldn't have taken the Cowboys to the Super Bowl unless he could walk on water. Our defense was far too worthless, and our OL wouldn't have given him the time to throw that he had with the Bucs.
Correct. He went 1 and done last year in NE. Brady isnt LeBron that can take 11 bench players to the finals.
 

LatinMind

iPhotoshop
Messages
17,430
Reaction score
11,554
its always about what you don't have. they have a pretty good foundation on both sides of the ball. give them high level play from the QB and they can compete with anyone.

no different than those years where we were close but just needed a little more out of a couple positions to put us over the top.
i think with this team its always been coaching thats held them back. 2007, 2014, 2016 i think if they had better coaching they win superbowls
 

Typhus

Captain Catfish
Messages
19,558
Reaction score
22,450
Everything you listed with the exception of poor tackling is a byproduct of bad DL play.
Maybe both DL and LB play, do we have to stop there?
Maybe secondary sucked as well.
That pretty much covers the entire defense, and why this debate should be null and void.
 

FVSTONE

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,548
Reaction score
2,644
Let me preface this by saying this has nothing to do with Daks contract or his value.

Thinking of what’s won the last 12 years, I think it’s obvious, if you have a dominant defensive line, you can win more than with a super star QB.

Examples:

Giants - 08 and 11.
Broncos - 2015
Eagles - 2017
Tampa - 2020

The Seahawks first Super Bowl in 2013 and the Ravens in 2012 were also both won by solid-above average QBs at the time.

Offense only teams rarely win. Last years Chiefs are about the only team to do so. The Rams-Patriots game in 2018 was the ultimate defensive struggle.

So what this means for Dallas - you can’t win anything except maybe a 9-7 NFC East title until you get the DT spots shored up with real players.
I totally agree! The Boys need to shore up the defense before they drop hundreds of millions of dollars on an AVERAGE QB at best!
 

streetcredit

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,147
Reaction score
1,402
Super star??? we're talking about fame, not skill....cause we don't have that option if it's skill.
 

kskboys

Well-Known Member
Messages
44,059
Reaction score
46,962
Would Kirk Cousins/Derek Carr have beaten KC on Sunday with that defense? No you can’t have Heinicke or Jameis 30 Turnover Winston back there. But I think with a defense that dominant Cousins or Carr would have achieved same result.
Quite possible, yes.
 

kskboys

Well-Known Member
Messages
44,059
Reaction score
46,962
And my point was that the main improvement in the team and the primary reason they won the super bowl was Tom Brady. Thats hardly a controversial opinion. In fact, Brady probably could have signed with 20 other teams and had them in the super bowl. His impact on a team goes far beyond the numbers.
Brady's great, no question, but it appears you're overvaluing him a bit.
 

Typhus

Captain Catfish
Messages
19,558
Reaction score
22,450
But you can have both. Tampa just won the SB...with both. Your dislike of Dak has convinced you can't have both lol
Tom Brady cost Tampa Bay 25m, so your post is without credit.

Tom Brady signed a two-year, $50 million contract with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers giving him a $25 million salary with the team for both the 2020 and 2021 seasons, per Spotrac.
Brady has a base salary of $15,000 along with a $10 million roster bonus to bring the number up to $25 million annually.
 
Last edited:

Hadenough

Well-Known Member
Messages
10,342
Reaction score
12,566
Its alright to heap ALL the Prasie on Brady....not surprised. Heck, Brady did everything right? I stand with....the Team carried him too. That ain't absurd too me....dismissing some of his play this year is. He slung 3 Ints against GB. Can the D get some love too?
That is a classic example of the defense stepping up to help their fearless leader QB.
 

Hadenough

Well-Known Member
Messages
10,342
Reaction score
12,566
Not even close. Brady had 4600 yards passing and 40 TD passes in the regular season. He was right behind Rodgers and Mahomes. The FACT (which is laughably indisputable at this point) is that Tampa underwent a culture change when Brady arrived. Not only did Brady raise the level of the offense, but he also raised the level of the defense b/c nobody wants to embarrass themselves in front of Tom Brady. Thats what the Tampa players say. And again, this was not a playoff team prior to his arrival. To surmise that the team carried Brady is absurd.
Well said! But some people here just dont get this. If its not a stat on paper it cant be computed. Anyone thats played sports knows how much of a difference having a great player on your team boosts EVERYONE on the team!
 
Top