Gotta Have & Don't Want

[Da Hammer]

Most want: still Run DMC
Least want: his backup Felix Jones

 

[cobra]

Fine. Ignore me for having a different opinion than you. But let's be real about who's being "infantile" here.

I'm not ignoring you. I've engaged you.

My philosophy, by the way, is that running backs aren't that valuable to a team.

I understand your philosophy. I really do. I've seen your argument ad nauseam on this board. I don't even disagree with you.

But what I do disagree with is being so wedded to that philosophy that we are going to have put up with inevitable *****ing about Felix Jones after we draft. It is highly probable that at the end of tomorrow, Felix Jones will be a Dallas Cowboy. While I understand your philosophy, I really, really, really hope that we don't see a bunch of threads from all the people who have been pounding sand against Felix.

Give the guy a chance. Maybe he will prove to be an exception to your philosophy.

Again, preferring Ray Rice in the second is fine. But that doesn't require a jihad against Felix. He should be given the opportunity to prove his value to the team instead of discarded because of his draft position.

***

I really enjoy the explosion of pre-draft coverage and interest in recent years. It really has made the off-season more enjoyable and seem shorter.

But the one down side of that is people get so locked into certain players that they end up getting pissed off when their team doesn't take them. This hostility is frequently directed to players the team did take. That is an unfortunate side effect of the pre-draft exposure. Hatreds are developed for players before they even get the opportunity to show themselves. The players' whole careers get summed up into a comparison to some other player instead of an objective evaluation of the player's contribution to the team they are on.

And we are all worse off for that.

So prefer Ray Rice or whomever over Felix Jones. But don't let that preference turn into bitterness and proceed to poison the well. Give him a chance.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Anybody who states that they would pass on Reggie Bush, Devin Hester, Dave Meggett and Eric Metcalf in the first round because of some made-up asinine "only every down players in the first round" rule tells us all we need to know about such a person's knowledge of the draft and how to build a winner. Which is to say, they know nothing and should be ignored.

Well, I can say that I would have passed on Bush because he would have had to have been taken too high. I wanted Hester but not in the 1st rd. Sure, I would have loved to have taken Dave Megget but he was a 5th Rd pick and even when he was drafted, Parcells considered him a luxary. In 1989. We drafted Keith Jennings, Willis Crocket and Jeff Roth in the 5th round. Sure, I would have loved to have picked Megget but at the time, we were trying to get guys who could play for us period. Not specialized Punt/Kick returners. As for Eric Metcalf, well, first I guess I would say that Jones is not Metcalf. They are not the same players. Having said that, I still would not have drafted Metcalf because he came out in 89. In 89, we draft Troy Aikman and there is no way I would have taken Metcalf, no matter how good he was, over Aikman.

If that religates me to the ranks of Football Ignorance or includes me in the Assinine Club, so be it. Probably best to just ignore me, as you say. However, I would also point out that when Megget and Metcalf were drafted, there was no salary cap. Right this minute, if you were to pool this board, I doubt that you would find anybody willing to pay Bush's salary right now. I would also guess that nobody would be interested in trading a #1 pick for Hester. In fact, I proposed him as a possible option for us earlier and nobody much was very interested.

I don't know what that means but I'd be willing to bet good money that if you offered a #1 pick to the Bears for Hester, right now, they would be all over it. He is holding out. That option is available to us. Would this be what you would want to do with our # 22 or 28 this year?

 

[theogt]

I'm not ignoring you. I've engaged you.



I understand your philosophy. I really do. I've seen your argument ad nauseam on this board. I don't even disagree with you.

But what I do disagree with is being so wedded to that philosophy that we are going to have put up with inevitable *****ing about Felix Jones after we draft. It is highly probable that at the end of tomorrow, Felix Jones will be a Dallas Cowboy. While I understand your philosophy, I really, really, really hope that we don't see a bunch of threads from all the people who have been pounding sand against Felix.

Give the guy a chance. Maybe he will prove to be an exception to your philosophy.

Again, preferring Ray Rice in the second is fine. But that doesn't require a jihad against Felix. He should be given the opportunity to prove his value to the team instead of discarded because of his draft position.

***

I really enjoy the explosion of pre-draft coverage and interest in recent years. It really has made the off-season more enjoyable and seem shorter.

But the one down side of that is people get so locked into certain players that they end up getting pissed off when their team doesn't take them. This hostility is frequently directed to players the team did take. That is an unfortunate side effect of the pre-draft exposure. Hatreds are developed for players before they even get the opportunity to show themselves. The players' whole careers get summed up into a comparison to some other player instead of an objective evaluation of the player's contribution to the team they are on.

And we are all worse off for that.

So prefer Ray Rice or whomever over Felix Jones. But don't let that preference turn into bitterness and proceed to poison the well. Give him a chance.

This is a bit unfair. You're problem seems to be that you don't want to hear about it post-draft.

Well, I was the most vocal opponent of drafting Bobby Carpenter. I said he wasn't going to be a 3-4 OLB. And now he's almost universally considered a bust, or at a minimum he's not considered a worthwhile 3-4 OLB. But have you heard me crow about it? Did you ever hear me complain about drafting him after that draft?

Absolutely not. Funny thing is, the most vocal complainers after the fact were probably supporters before the fact. It's just the nature of whiners. They'll whine about anything even if they were for it at the time.

Also, this notion that anyone is negative about Felix Jones because they have a preference for another player is absolutely absurd. You're just dreaming this up in your head. I wouldn't be happy with Ray Rice at 22 either. Why? Because it's a backup RB being drafted in the 1st round. Now, I'd be less upset with Rice than with Jones, but that's only because I think Rice can be an every down back while I don't think that Jones can.

If there's something wrong with that, then so be it, but you're getting your panties in a wad here, not the other way around.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

What's the penalty for expressing my opinion?

What's gonna happen to me if I don't like the pick?

Will someone kick me out of the forum?

It's the naughty step for you buddy! Top of the stairs of bottom step, whichel it be?

 

[cobra]

Well, I can say that I would have passed on Bush because he would have had to have been taken too high. I wanted Hester but not in the 1st rd. Sure, I would have loved to have taken Dave Megget but he was a 5th Rd pick and even when he was drafted, Parcells considered him a luxary. In 1989. We drafted Keith Jennings, Willis Crocket and Jeff Roth in the 5th round. Sure, I would have loved to have picked Megget but at the time, we were trying to get guys who could play for us period. Not specialized Punt/Kick returners. As for Eric Metcalf, well, first I guess I would say that Jones is not Metcalf. They are not the same players. Having said that, I still would not have drafted Metcalf because he came out in 89. In 89, we draft Troy Aikman and there is no way I would have taken Metcalf, no matter how good he was, over Aikman.

You completely missed the point of those questions. I was not asking you whether you have drafted those guys in the first round of the year they were drafted.

What I was asking--and perhaps I didn't make it clear enough--is under any conditions (e.g., last pick in the first round of some hypothetical draft) would you consider taking those players who have produced as they have in the first round.

The point is that that Meggett and Metcalf went to multiple Pro Bowls and finished in the top 10 in yards in NFL history and contributed a lot to their teams. But because they were not every down backs, they are not worthy of a first round pick? To say that is asinine. Bush was the #2 pick in his draft. Would you take him at #28 in this draft if he was entering this draft? Of course you would. If Devin Hester was in this draft--a guy who is a game changer who helped Chicago get to the Super Bowl--would he not be worthy of a pick at #28? Of course he would be.

The point is that a player's value is the contribution he makes to his team and that contribution is not dependent on whether the player is an every down player or not.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

This is a bit unfair. You're problem seems to be that you don't want to hear about it post-draft.

Well, I was the most vocal opponent of drafting Bobby Carpenter. I said he wasn't going to be a 3-4 OLB. And now he's almost universally considered a bust, or at a minimum he's not a worthwhile 3-4 OLB. But have you heard be crow about it? Did you ever hear be complain about drafting him after that draft?

Absolutely not. Funny thing is, the most vocal complainers after the fact were probably supporters before the fact. It's just the nature of whiners. They'll whine about anything even if they were for it at the time.

Also, this notion that anyone is negative about Felix Jones because they have a preference for another player is absolutely absurd. You're just dreaming this up in your head. I wouldn't be happy with Ray Rice at 22 either. Why? Because it's a backup RB being drafted in the 1st round. Now, I'd be less upset with Rice than with Jones, but that's only because I think Rice can be an every down back while I don't think that Jones can.

If there's something wrong with that, then so be it, but you're getting your panties in a wad here, not the other way around.

I was against drafting Roy but now, here we are. Conversly, I really, really liked Robertson and I believe he was traded last night for a conditional 9th Round pick. We are all suseptable to errors in judgement when it comes to evaluating players in the NFL draft. Heck, if you hit on 50% in the Pro's, your considered a genius.

What does that say?

 

[Jake0]

Most Want: Ray Rice/Jamaal Chaarles
Least Want: Felix Jones

Felix does not justify a 1st rounder to me and I don't trust him if Barber goes down. He's not tough, not even as fast as advertised, not really an elite pass catching back, and he just isn't gonna be what brings us a super bowl. MUCH rather use a 1st rounder on a WR than Felix and get a decent back later on in this deep RB draft.

 

[theogt]

I was against drafting Roy but now, here we are. Conversly, I really, really liked Robertson and I believe he was traded last night for a conditional 9th Round pick. We are all suseptable to errors in judgement when it comes to evaluating players in the NFL draft. Heck, if you hit on 50% in the Pro's, your considered a genius.

What does that say?

Well, my point wasn't that I'm some genius about not wanting Carpenter, but rather I haven't complained about the pick since the draft, even though I was extremely against it.

 

[cobra]

If there's something wrong with that, then so be it, but you're getting your panties in a wad here, not the other way around.

There isn't anything wrong with it. If you aren't going to complaining tomorrow night that we draft Felix, then great. I have no beef with you. It's the guys who *****ed about not drafting Merriman from the outset. Or the guys who *****ed about not drafting Lawson. That garbage is what I can do without.

And my panties aren't in a wad. Not by a mile. I just fight with people as a profession. Trust me, you don't want to me when my panties are in a wad. If you think I am salty ******* now, watch out.

 

[theogt]

There isn't anything wrong with it. If you aren't going to complaining tomorrow night that we draft Felix, then great. I have no beef with you. It's the guys who *****ed about not drafting Merriman from the outset. Or the guys who *****ed about not drafting Lawson. That garbage is what I can do without.

And my panties aren't in a wad. Not by a mile. I just fight with people as a profession. Trust me, you don't want to me when my panties are in a wad. If you think I am salty ******* now, watch out.

Yeah, like I said. Whiners are whiners. They'll do what they do. The only thing we can do is call them on it when it happens.

I give myself 24 hours to ***** about a decision the team made, then after that it's over.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

You completely missed the point of those questions. I was not asking you whether you have drafted those guys in the first round of the year they were drafted.

What I was asking--and perhaps I didn't make it clear enough--is under any conditions (e.g., last pick in the first round of some hypothetical draft) would you consider taking those players who have produced as they have in the first round.

The point is that that Meggett and Metcalf went to multiple Pro Bowls and finished in the top 10 in yards in NFL history and contributed a lot to their teams. But because they were not every down backs, they are not worthy of a first round pick? To say that is asinine. Bush was the #2 pick in his draft. Would you take him at #28 in this draft if he was entering this draft? Of course you would. If Devin Hester was in this draft--a guy who is a game changer who helped Chicago get to the Super Bowl--would he not be worthy of a pick at #28? Of course he would be.

The point is that a player's value is the contribution he makes to his team and that contribution is not dependent on whether the player is an every down player or not.

I did not miss the point at all. I simply restated it in such a way as to shed a different light on it. It is not a matter of not liking Jones or even not wanting him on the team. It is a matter of seeing value in spending a 1st round pick on him. I would be very happy to have him in the 2nd if we were able to get him there. I'm not a big believe in taking him in the 1st because I don't believe he is one of the top 28 players available to us. I don't view the draft as something you use to plug holes, especially in the 1st round. I think you take players that have the best chance to be great players in the 1st Rd. In later rounds, I'm not so much against drafting for need as I am in the first. In the first round, I believe you should always try to draft a great player, regardless of position. Even QB, if that's the best player available to you. I just believe that if you stay constant with this approach, in the end, it will prove to be more valuable then drafting for need.

That's just what I believe.

So, I do believe that Hester is available. Are you saying that you would be in favor of trading our 22 or 28 for Hester?

As for your question about Bush, Jones is not Bush. He is not Metcalf but no matter. The real question would be, if Bush were available at 28 for us this year and he was the highest rated player on the board, then yes I would. However, if Bush and Mario Williams were both on the board at 28, then no, I wouldn't. Williams was the highest rated player on the board, IMO, and I would not take Bush over Williams just because he was a back and we needed one. I would take the best player that had a chance to be great in the 1st rd.

 

[Valor]

Assuming we stay put at 22 and 28:

Most: Jenkins (which, if you believe Goose, would amount to something of a coup)
Least: any wide receiver in this draft

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Well, my point wasn't that I'm some genius about not wanting Carpenter, but rather I haven't complained about the pick since the draft, even though I was extremely against it.

Naturally. None of us are and that is my point. You can not look at past drafts and conclude that because Megget, Hester, Metcalf and Bush have enjoyed various measures of success in the NFL, that it means that it is a good move to take a player like Jones in the 1st round this year, for us. It's simply not how it works.

 

[cobra]

As for your question about Bush, Jones is not Bush. He is not Metcalf but no matter. The real question would be, if Bush were available at 28 for us this year and he was the highest rated player on the board, then yes I would.

So you would take Bush if he "was the highest rated player on the board." By doing so, you are admitting that there is no such a rule that a player must be a "every down player" in order to warrant a first round grade. Instead, you are using the accurate rule that you take him if he is the "highest rated player."

I agree completely with that rule: you take the "highest rated player."

But now we come to the crux of the issue. You have decided that Jones is not as good as Bush. You have decided that Jones is not as good as Metcalf. And apparently you have decide that he is not as good as #28 other players in this year's draft. Or, in other words, as I referenced above, you have a preference for 28 other players. And I'm fine with that. That is your opinion.

But if the Cowboys have him rated as the 22nd best player (as Goose does), then there is nothing wrong with taking him at #22.

I submit that this "has to be a starter" thing is a made up rule to justify the real issue: a person has a preference for at least 28 other players. But at the end of the day, if the Cowboys believe he is the 22nd best talent--a determination which is not outside the realm of reasonable--then there is nothing to squawk at if they take him there.

I'm just objecting to the people who acting like there is no way it is reasonable to take Felix at #22 because he isn't a "every down player." That strikes me as bad faith.

 

[theogt]

So you would take Bush if he "was the highest rated player on the board." By doing so, you are admitting that there is no such a rule that a player must be a "every down player" in order to warrant a first round grade. Instead, you are using the accurate rule that you take him if he is the "highest rated player."

I don't think you can really make this conclusion. There are competing principles at play. It's perfectly reasonable to state that Bush may have enough talent to overcome the "every down RB" rule but Felix Jones does not.

 

[RainMan]

Gotta have: Antoine Cason. Just think he's an overlooked corner (not by this board).

Don't want: Felix Jones. Unfortunately, I expect us to draft him. But something screams "Sherman Williams" about him. Has some ability but I agree with the people who think he's a career backup/situational guy. I'd prefer a guy with starting potential.

 

[Stash]

I understand your philosophy. I really do. I've seen your argument ad nauseam on this board. I don't even disagree with you.

But what I do disagree with is being so wedded to that philosophy that we are going to have put up with inevitable *****ing about Felix Jones after we draft. It is highly probable that at the end of tomorrow, Felix Jones will be a Dallas Cowboy. While I understand your philosophy, I really, really, really hope that we don't see a bunch of threads from all the people who have been pounding sand against Felix.

Give the guy a chance. Maybe he will prove to be an exception to your philosophy.

Again, preferring Ray Rice in the second is fine. But that doesn't require a jihad against Felix. He should be given the opportunity to prove his value to the team instead of discarded because of his draft position.

***

I really enjoy the explosion of pre-draft coverage and interest in recent years. It really has made the off-season more enjoyable and seem shorter.

But the one down side of that is people get so locked into certain players that they end up getting pissed off when their team doesn't take them. This hostility is frequently directed to players the team did take. That is an unfortunate side effect of the pre-draft exposure. Hatreds are developed for players before they even get the opportunity to show themselves. The players' whole careers get summed up into a comparison to some other player instead of an objective evaluation of the player's contribution to the team they are on.

And we are all worse off for that.

So prefer Ray Rice or whomever over Felix Jones. But don't let that preference turn into bitterness and proceed to poison the well. Give him a chance.

Firstly, I'm glad you've seemed to calm down and come off of your previous position. No need to attack anybody who sees things differently than you do.

Secondly, would it be *****ing if I state the same displeasure in drafting Felix Jones after it happens as I did before?

The point is that it's my opinion that the first round is too early to draft a running back who hasn't 'carried the mail' and has question marks regarding whether he could ever do so.

I want more of a sure thing at running back in round 1. I want a guy who has done it. A guy like Ray Rice, who has proven he can be a lead running back.

It's nothing personal against Jones, he may be a fine person. I have nothing against him. I'm against drafting him in round 1.

And since when is kick returner a huge need for this team? I know punt returner was until Pacman came aboard, but Jones doesn't return punts anyway.

If the Cowboys draft him, I'll be against the move, not the player.

And I'll also be happy if and when I'm proven wrong because it will be in the best interests of my favorite team.

 

[L-O-Jete]

I really don't think having 2 first round RB's (salary wise) has payed off for NO, so I wouldn't want to be in the same situation that's all, if you get a 1st round RB it's because next year MB3 is walking IMHO so I don't want a part timer.

 

[Rockytop6]

I don't think you did at all.

Danny I like your question better than Hostile' but since my wife is nearby I will respond to Hostile'. smile. I'm kidding. Really I have discovered that age takes care of most of our temptations.

I Like:

Jenkins/Cason, Stewart, T. Johnson

Don't:

Any player listed as "lazy with character issues." I want players who play with passion - high motor guys.