Here you go Jerry

[rcaldw]

No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying there is no blueprint which every team follows and we are going the opposite way.

Every team handles their business differently. People on this forum continue to think and claim Jerry Jones as GM is a puppet master. There is no evidence to support this, only supposition. The fact remains Jerry turns over A LOT of the day to day football operations to people on his staff.

As for the little you're offended because I disagree with you crap you just posted, tough it out or don't bother to discuss football with me. Come with some facts next time and you won't need to get offended.

Who said I was offended? Sometimes Hos you get a little psycho on me. I have FAR too many real life issues, that have very real impact on people's lives to worry very deeply about something said to me concerning football. I think you're a little touchy sir. I put "Hos says yes", because, as far as I understood it, this was the position you were taking. I'm not offended, haven't been offended, and I truthfully, just being brutally honest with you, I think you think too highly of yourself at times. Hos, your "facts" aren't always facts, and MANY times you just pass over the stuff you don't want to deal with or don't have an answer for. Doesn't offend me in the least. And those are facts.

 

[George]

No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying there is no blueprint which every team follows and we are going the opposite way.

Every team handles their business differently. People on this forum continue to think and claim Jerry Jones as GM is a puppet master. There is no evidence to support this, only supposition. The fact remains Jerry turns over A LOT of the day to day football operations to people on his staff.

As for the little you're offended because I disagree with you crap you just posted, tough it out or don't bother to discuss football with me. Come with some facts next time and you won't need to get offended.

I don't think Jerry is a "puppet master." That is extreme. But, it is perceived, like it or not, and I think Jerry would admit to it, that he makes the "final" decision in regards to the Cowboys. Jerry has claimed that the Cowboys are "his team." He "owns" the Cowboys and he says that he has a right to do whatever he wants. I understand this.

But, as long as an owner, like Jerry, owns the decisions regarding the team, you're likely to see less than optimal performance unless the owner is a gifted coach. That appears to be where the Cowboys are stuck.

Jerry is going to have to do something different and be happy with a lesser role than owning the final decision or we will continue to spin our wheels. That's got to be the perception of most long standing Cowboy fans such as myself.

Sorry for your frustration. I enjoy reading your posts.

 

[Hostile]

Who said I was offended? Sometimes Hos you get a little psycho on me. I have FAR too many real life issues, that have very real impact on people's lives to worry very deeply about something said to me concerning football. I think you're a little touchy sir. I put "Hos says yes", because, as far as I understood it, this was the position you were taking. I'm not offended, haven't been offended, and I truthfully, just being brutally honest with you, I think you think too highly of yourself at times. Hos, your "facts" aren't always facts, and MANY times you just pass over the stuff you don't want to deal with or don't have an answer for. Doesn't offend me in the least. And those are facts.

If you are not offended, why take a shot saying Hos says, so it must be?

That's a load of crap man. I wouldn't do that to you with a gun to my head.

 

[George]

ok, continued fantasy on your part...but ok

out of curiosity, why is he now leaving Miami after only two yrs?

I'd rather be in fantasy world than your lollipop world. To answer your question...I don't know. He is getting older; maybe that's part of it.

 

[rcaldw]

If you are not offended, why take a shot saying Hos says, so it must be?

That's a load of crap man. I wouldn't do that to you with a gun to my head.

I didn't mean it the way it apparently came out and hit you. I sincerely apologize. All I was trying to do is state where I thought the two sides of the argument rested, using you as the one side of the argument and me as the other. And quite frankly, admitting that we just have opposite opinions, not trying to mis-characterize yours. I'm sorry.

 

[craig71]

OK, so you gave reasons why it was done in the way it was done. From a Jerry Jones perspective. In 2007, the league viewed Garrett as the next Sean Payton. Now he's the next David Shula.

Jerry saw the chance to add what many considered a top notch coaching prospect. I can't fault him for that.

And the dynamic of hiring him right before the head coach is still dysfunctional, no matter what Jones' motivations were. And you won't get a quality coach making the same demands of them.

Jerry said that this was a unique situation did he not? I don't think that you can quantify your remark about not getting a quality coach as long as you're putting demands on them. Simply put, what if Cowher was the next HC and kept Garrett around per Jerry's request? Cowher is someone that I believe you feel is a quality coach, am I correct? So, hypothetically, if Cowher were to make that move would you consider him unfit becasue of that move, is he no longer a quality coach in your opinion?

OK, what point are you trying to make with this link?

Still believe Jerry thinks he 'got it right'?

Just pointing out that Wade wanted to talk to Jason before naming him OC. He didn't simply come out and say Jason is my OC from day one.


Craig

 

[Hostile]

I don't think Jerry is a "puppet master." That is extreme. But, it is perceived, like it or not, and I think Jerry would admit to it, that he makes the "final" decision in regards to the Cowboys. Jerry has claimed that the Cowboys are "his team." He "owns" the Cowboys and he says that he has a right to do whatever he wants. I understand this.

But, as long as an owner, like Jerry, owns the decisions regarding the team, you're likely to see less than optimal performance unless the owner is a gifted coach. That appears to be where the Cowboys are stuck.

Jerry is going to have to do something different and be happy with a lesser role than owning the final decision or we will continue to spin our wheels. That's got to be the perception of most long standing Cowboy fans such as myself.

Sorry for your frustration. I enjoy reading your posts.

Jerry does make a final decision. But show me some evidence that Jerry over rides the entire football operation.

There is none. I am sorry that this is a truth that cannot be accepted, but it is the truth nonetheless.

I do not care about perception. People perceive all kinds of different things. Perception does not automatically equal fact.

I'll tell you why I am frustrated. I asked a couple of very simple questions that no one can answer, yet they continue to hold fast to dysfunction nonsense and accuse me of manufacturing a false persona of our team.

1. Why is Stephen Jones on the Competition Committee?

2. Why does Stephen negotiate all contracts and answer questions about them at the Press Conferences?

According to perceptions here Jerry is all powerful, all intrusive, and all encompassing.

Yet this is staring us right in the face and we ignore it. Is there any portion of being a general manager in today's NFL that is more involved in actual football acumen than contracts? If not, why is Jerry delegating that to Stephen? No one holding the perception of Jerry as meddler can answer that honestly without backing up my POV. Do you agree or disagree?

Look at all of the other guys on the Competition Committee. Stephen is the only "Junior Executive" on that group. The others are owners, GMs, and Head Coaches. It should tell you a lot about how things are done in Dallas. It is a team effort.

I used the Owens example. Jerry did not want to cut Owens. I understand why, even though I would have been on the side of cut him. Ultimately he ratified the decision of his front office and coaches and despite his own feelings, Owens was waived.

This is dysfunction? This is mismanagement?

I confess, I don't see it. Dude has warts, but let's not cover him in them.

 

[Hostile]

Then our opinions could not differ more.

That, more than any other reason is why Jerry would not get a coach like Cowher.

The Cowboys have everything else an incoming coach could want:

High profile team

High level of talent

Owner willing to pay for good coaching

Owner willing to pay for players

And there are many others.

But if Jerry demands he get his way, he won't get the cream of the coaching crop and we'll have another lame duck on our hands and the reults will be the same.

I have never in my life heard of a top notch professional coach throwing a hissy fit over being able to have a qualified, respected, and talented assistant.

I can't even fathom the thinking here. I really cannot. It is soap opera and not football.

 

[Hostile]

I didn't mean it the way it apparently came out and hit you. I sincerely apologize. All I was trying to do is state where I thought the two sides of the argument rested, using you as the one side of the argument and me as the other. And quite frankly, admitting that we just have opposite opinions, not trying to mis-characterize yours. I'm sorry.

No sweat. I still read all your posts and respect your takes.

 

[chicago JK]

Reminds me of a post years ago with Art at Extreme skins making his cause that the Vinny/Danny setup was similar to New Englands Belicheck/Pioli setup. And that the difference between Pioli and Vinny was minimal.

Dallas have seen good results when they had an all timer involved (Jimmy/Parcells). Without either, things tend to get messy when their footprints are washed away.

 

[TheDude]

Not only this, but as has been shown he was in high demand. Saban wanted him as his OC at Bama. Cameron wated to make him OC at Miami. Linehan wanted him to be his OC in St. Louis.

Jerry had to move quickly and I just don't see why anyone thinks an incoming head coach would have an issue with the way Jerry handled that hiring. There is no evidence of it ever being an issue with anyone but the fans. Therefore I put no stock in it at all.

Good business decisions are not dysfunction.

Any time you move quickly on a middle manager, you are not making a good business decision.

Working in banking, you see a ton of new hot shots interview well and want to come in and redo things - then their body of work has to speak. Just because you are the "smartest guyin the room" doeans't make you effective.

Garrett would have been better to go under Saban and learned how to run an organization. Coming to a marketing and puppet regime doesn't give him much football knowledge to learn from.

He has made horrendous gaffes starting with Brad Johnson to not starting Felix earlier.

If he is one of the football guys getting free reign to coach and run his players, then he is an abject failure. In 3 years, he may have developed Doug Free and Doug Free alone. Other than that, everyone is a Parcells guy.
Bryant is a stud, but where is he on offense - other than having his first 3 passes go for 2 yards on that continually failed screen play

His personell doen't fit his scheme, his play calling doesn't adapt. Ray Lewis and Ed Reed talk about how easier the tendencies are to read.

All of that, and it was a "good" hire. Financially, there is no ROI on the Garrett investment. you could have easily achieved similar results at a much less price and likely had more than 1 player replace a starter.

It's laughable and the people who keep hanging on Garretts jock are blinded by delusion, low intelect or some ridiculous loyalty.

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

#1 - I am going to hire the best people money can buy for every leadership position in the organization outside of my own.

#2 - My head coach will hire his own staff from top to bottom

#3 - We are going to be committed to CHARACTER at every level.

#4 Drew Pearson will immediately go into the ring of honor along with others who deserve to be there.

#5 - No one denies that making money is important to me. Football is a business. But no longer are we aiming at producing a playoff team. We are aiming at producing multiple championships.

1. Easy come easy go, huh? In the real world, Jerra is paying off his palace and the bungled contracts to Roy, Marion and to three RBs who don't have a respectable O-line to run with.

2. What an interesting concept. Check your IM for a picture of me yawning.

3. good luck. today's highly sought players are more likely to be rapping and driving fast, tattooing their apendages and molesting women than attending prayer circles. Face it, the culture has changed. It has changed the athlete. If you want your Roger Staubachs, there is this DeLorean that I heard can take you back into the past . . . .

4. Drew Pearson, even if he had not tangled with jerra on that merchandising enterprise, is considered marginal when it comes to the ROH. don't waste your life lamenting his nonpresence in the ROH.

5. If you truly believe that football is a business (and it is) then your premises of 1, 3 and 4 were total fabrications on your part.

Quite a dream. Hope the pipe still works.

 

[George]

Jerry does make a final decision. But show me some evidence that Jerry over rides the entire football operation.

There is none. I am sorry that this is a truth that cannot be accepted, but it is the truth nonetheless.

I do not care about perception. People perceive all kinds of different things. Perception does not automatically equal fact.

I'll tell you why I am frustrated. I asked a couple of very simple questions that no one can answer, yet they continue to hold fast to dysfunction nonsense and accuse me of manufacturing a false persona of our team.

1. Why is Stephen Jones on the Competition Committee?

2. Why does Stephen negotiate all contracts and answer questions about them at the Press Conferences?

According to perceptions here Jerry is all powerful, all intrusive, and all encompassing.

Yet this is staring us right in the face and we ignore it. Is there any portion of being a general manager in today's NFL that is more involved in actual football acumen than contracts? If not, why is Jerry delegating that to Stephen? No one holding the perception of Jerry as meddler can answer that honestly without backing up my POV. Do you agree or disagree?

Look at all of the other guys on the Competition Committee. Stephen is the only "Junior Executive" on that group. The others are owners, GMs, and Head Coaches. It should tell you a lot about how things are done in Dallas. It is a team effort.

I used the Owens example. Jerry did not want to cut Owens. I understand why, even though I would have been on the side of cut him. Ultimately he ratified the decision of his front office and coaches and despite his own feelings, Owens was waived.

This is dysfunction? This is mismanagement?

I confess, I don't see it. Dude has warts, but let's not cover him in them.

Well. I try to stay away from extremes, especially when considering whether Jerry is a good owner or not. My perception is that he's okay.

It's going to take a dynamic coach and/or a bit of luck for this team to get back to the SB. We don't have the coach we need considering how the Cowboy organization is run.

 

[TheDude]

If you are not offended, why take a shot saying Hos says, so it must be?

That's a load of crap man. I wouldn't do that to you with a gun to my head.

No you refuse rebutting the irrefutable facts with :

":laugh2: Wanna try again?"

This team has the worst ROI for talent evaluation over the last 3 years than any tema in the league. Only 3 first rounders will remain and maybe Free.

Get reall football guys in here for 3 years, hire garrett back and maybe he can ride that wave to a 13-3 season.

 

[Hostile]

Any time you move quickly on a middle manager, you are not making a good business decision.

I disagree. I don't see a coach as a middle manager, and if you have a chance to take the hot young phenom you are stupid not to.

I know a guy who graduated college at 19 with a Masters in Computer Science. This guy can sit as a train goes by and add the 5 digit numbers on the cars in his head. His Dad rented our house when I was in my teens. He told me that when Michael was in college he didn't take his books to class one time. He was an art professor at the same college so he ran the books by and his professor told him that Michael did not need the books because he had written his own.

When Michael graduated he went to Silicon Valley and dressed pretty much like a hippie he walked into the offices of Hewlet Packard and asked to see the President. He was asked if he had an appointment and he said he did not need one. The President agreed and Michael met him and gave him a salary demand. He was told no one makes that much. Michael replied that he would and he walked out. 30 minutes later he had a job.

Michael is a social misfit, but he is a computer development genius. Companies that do not seek genius usually ind themselves trailing their competitors.

Now you will say something clever about 1-5. We're having a bad year. That's football. If you think the three teams above us in our division wouldn't love to have Garrett if they had an opening you are deluded.

 

[Hostile]

No you refuse rebutting the irrefutable facts with :

":laugh2: Wanna try again?"

This team has the worst ROI for talent evaluation over the last 3 years than any tema in the league. Only 3 first rounders will remain and maybe Free.

Get reall football guys in here for 3 years, hire garrett back and maybe he can ride that wave to a 13-3 season.

Oh my gosh.

My wanna try again was about the structure of your sentence, which was butchered. You edited it later. Get over it already.

 

[BAZ]

Now you will say something clever about 1-5. We're having a bad year. That's football. If you think the three teams above us in our division wouldn't love to have Garrett if they had an opening you are deluded.

Waterboy?

 

[Stash]

I have never in my life heard o a op notch professional coach throwing a hissy fit over being able to have a qualified, respected, and talented assistant.

I can't even fathom the thinking here. I really cannot. It is soap opera and not football.

The point is that it is and should be the coach's choice, not Jerry Jones'.

Do you actually think that Wade Phillips or any other candidate had the ability to take the Dallas head coaching job if he didn not accept Jason Garrett?

And trust me, many football people do not have the same opinion that you do of Garrett at this time, so "qualified, respected, and talented" are not universally held opinions of him.

Coaches want to hire their own staffs, not 'suggestions' from ownership.

 

[TheDude]

I disagree. I don't see a coach as a middle manager, and if you have a chance to take the hot young phenom you are stupid not to.

I know a guy who graduated college at 19 with a Masters in Computer Science. This guy can sit as a train goes by and add the 5 digit numbers on the cars in his head. His Dad rented our house when I was in my teens. He told me that when Michael was in college he didn't take his books to class one time. He was an art professor at the same college so he ran the books by and his professor told him that Michael did not need the books because he had written his own.

When Michael graduated he went to Silicon Valley and dressed pretty much like a hippie he walked into the offices of Hewlet Packard and asked to see the President. He was asked if he had an appointment and he said he did not need one. The President agreed and Michael met him and gave him a salary demand. He was told no one makes that much. Michael replied that he would and he walked out. 30 minutes later he had a job.

Michael is a social misfit, but he is a computer development genius. Companies that do not seek genius usually ind themselves trailing their competitors.

Now you will say something clever about 1-5. We're having a bad year. That's football. If you think the three teams above us in our division wouldn't love to have Garrett if they had an opening you are deluded.

Being smart doesn't make you an effective leader of men. Paralysis by analysis is a term to embrace.

I have interviewed and worked with many kids out of Finance PhD progs. who can deconstruct a CDS and 3rd level derivatives off the top of their head. Then you ask them to implement their idea and they can't convey it or motivate people to help them. The fail.

The only thing about Garrett is that he is not on anyone's shortlist for HC candidates after 2009 and certainly not in 2010.

Garrett is judged by his work.

Talent Eval - D-
Playcalling - C
Personell usage - C
Games HE has adjusted and won -D
Motivation - D

If he was so hot in 2007, either he put himself in a downward spiral or he is a scapegoat. You say Jerry doesn't force and meddle and Wade doesn't input on offense - so my deductive reasoning is that he has worked had to achieve his demand.

Since you want to go back and relish 2007. That was a great year, but did you see a trend toward the end of that season? Did you notice him adjsting in Championship game?

2008 - Do you remember starting out fast and then inexplicably giving Felix 0 touched in Wash for our first loss, then BJ, then Pitt, then the Baltimore fiasco where opponents called him out. Then 44-6.

2009- we were 2-2 and beyond pathetic until Austin broke out and then
Felix

2010 where was Felix as a starter, where has the Oline been improved, non-kneel-down, etc.

He caught everyone by surprise in 2007. The league caught up in December.

If you think that is worth $3M per yr, you evaluation of a business decision is flawed.

The hire wasn't bad, the results are

 

[Stash]

Jerry saw the chance to add what many considered a top notch coaching prospect. I can't fault him for that.

He himself hired an assistant coach before he hired his head coach. I can fault him for that. Continue that practice and you'll continue to get 3-time loser candidates and you'll continue to get lousy results.

Just don't have the nerve to be surprised at the results.

Jerry said that this was a unique situation did he not? I don't think that you can quantify your remark about not getting a quality coach as long as you're putting demands on them. Simply put, what if Cowher was the next HC and kept Garrett around per Jerry's request? Cowher is someone that I believe you feel is a quality coach, am I correct? So, hypothetically, if Cowher were to make that move would you consider him unfit becasue of that move, is he no longer a quality coach in your opinion?

The entire Dallas dysfunctional dynamic can be called a 'unique situation' too.

Simply put, Cowher would never accept it.

If Jerry wants to do business that way, all of the other positives in Dallas will not matter. Coaches of Cowher's quality won't even talk to him.

Just pointing out that Wade wanted to talk to Jason before naming him OC. He didn't simply come out and say Jason is my OC from day one.

And are you naive enough to actually think that Wade had the power to make that decision one way or the other?

Really?

Garrett was already hired, here, and under contract.

At best he was going to be the head coach. At worst he was going to be the offensive coordinator.

The only thing Wade could have changed was declining the offer and the requirements, making Garrett the head coach.




Craig[/quote]