Hey Theebs: Maybe this is a clue.

[theebs]

There was a poster in here who claimed to have met TC on a plane last offseason who said he'd asked Choice point blank about Romo and that TC had basically said 'meh.'

Personally, I think TC is a good guy who was loyal to his friend Owens in picking sides on '08, but is smart enough to know not to cross Romo and who doesn't have a personal axe to grind with Tony, anyway. If TC's not playing much, there's no need to look farther than the fact that the backs in front of him are just both better than he is.

And Barber's enough better that even playing with a significant injury it's a toss-up on whom to play. Personally, I think the coaches erred last year in not resting Barber and playing Choice, but with Felix hurt and in a situation where any one of those six games could have meant no return trip to the playoffs, I hardly blame them for sticking with the guy who got them there in the first place.

That is the thing, barber stepped up because jones injured himself against carolina. They would have had to roll into denver with just choice? I dont understand how that is on the coaches.

Barber stepped up and played injured and played decent in denver. CHoice looked exhausted against carolina.

and since everyone always points to stats with choice, Maybe there is something to the fact that he was exhausted from the monday night game against carolina and recieved more carries than barber and had less yards the next week against denver.

so maybe the staff saw first hand he couldnt handle the heavy load and didnt want to tax him all year, but use him in his third down role. Maybe that is why against kc he went back to getting a handful of carries and he broke the big run.

again, I dont know nor does anyone else. But barber had a torn quad and we had a big game in denver 14 days later and barber had a better day on the ground with less carries than choice. Maybe that is all their is to it, they view choice as a role player? Barber should not have been playing obviously but the team needed him because they had no felix and a tired it appeared choice, he answered the bell.

 

[jterrell]

I don't see where an injured Barber is 'enough better'.




I agree with you, I think the coaches erred but I do blame them.

Choice has done nothing but produce since he's been here. And to me, he's the most complete back on the roster. What's the point of bragging about your 3-headed monster at running back when you won't use them, even when you need to?

I see nothing but production every time the guys gets a chance. And I have yet to see evidence of him 'struggling in pass protection'.

I see a guy who very seldom gets caught for negative yardage and one who makes big plays in the passing game. Take the video in this thread, when was the last time anyone has seen either Jones or Barber make a downfield reception like Choice did?

I can't recall any.

Just another area where the guy just produces.

And this isn't anti-Barber, this is pro-Choice.

What it is, is premature adulation. Choice simply hasn't had a big enough body of work to justify your man love for him.

Felix has certainly generated the more explosive plays and Barber has certainly shown the ability to pound the ball and score TDs with efficiency.

There are a handful of guys last year who had stats about the same as Choice: Justin Forsett, Mike Forte, Correll Burkhalter. All are solid players but none are considered stars. Choice is a legitimate NFL running back without question but he hasn't been this beast who tears up defenses. He is a solid player with good vision who is getting limited reps.

Again, based upon stats Choice was better last year than Barber but it's impossible to simply say Choice would have averaged his same numbers as a main RB who was focused and game planned for if he had another 200 carries last year.

You can't take 350 yards rushing and then just triple that based on carries.
There is a laundry list of guys who had 350 yards last year and looked good doing it. Most of the list isn't even known by average NFL fans.

 

[jterrell]

That is the thing, barber stepped up because jones injured himself against carolina. They would have had to roll into denver with just choice? I dont understand how that is on the coaches.

Barber stepped up and played injured and played decent in denver. CHoice looked exhausted against carolina.

and since everyone always points to stats with choice, Maybe there is something to the fact that he was exhausted from the monday night game against carolina and recieved more carries than barber and had less yards the next week against denver.

so maybe the staff saw first hand he couldnt handle the heavy load and didnt want to tax him all year, but use him in his third down role. Maybe that is why against kc he went back to getting a handful of carries and he broke the big run.

again, I dont know nor does anyone else. But barber had a torn quad and we had a big game in denver 14 days later and barber had a better day on the ground with less carries than choice. Maybe that is all their is to it, they view choice as a role player? Barber should not have been playing obviously but the team needed him because they had no felix and a tired it appeared choice, he answered the bell.

I think you have a handle on it.

This is really just common sense.

The Dallas coaching staff was coaching for their jobs last year. Anyone who thinks they cared about anything but production is kidding themselves.

Choice is a favorite amongst his teammates like Brooking is. Yea, he liked T.O. but he is a minister's kid with a heart of gold and his teammates see him s enthusiastic. That off-field stuff is a plus for him not a negative.

Choice has had one 20+ carry game in his career and he averaged 3.83 yards per carry. He has never rushed for 100 yards in a game. In fact his two biggest rushing yardage games were when he had single digit carries. 8 carries for 92 yards and 9 carries for 91 yards. He is a solid player but it doesn't look like he gets stronger with more carries like Barber did.

Just about every team in the NFL would love to have Choice but he is also the kind of player who average fans are going to severely overrate.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

What it is, is premature adulation. Choice simply hasn't had a big enough body of work to justify your man love for him.

Felix has certainly generated the more explosive plays and Barber has certainly shown the ability to pound the ball and score TDs with efficiency.

There are a handful of guys last year who had stats about the same as Choice: Justin Forsett, Mike Forte, Correll Burkhalter. All are solid players but none are considered stars. Choice is a legitimate NFL running back without question but he hasn't been this beast who tears up defenses. He is a solid player with good vision who is getting limited reps.

Totally agree.

And IMO, DC is on to something with TC's attitude.

I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I don't really like the feeling I get from TC's interviews. All this talk of "Yeah man, it's hard, so hard to accept my role... But I do it for the good of the team" gets old from a second year (I know, now third) year backup running back who really hasn't done that much. I know you think you're a star RB who is being held back in this system, TC, but just keep playing well enough and you'll get your chance and your money in due time -- just like every other young player.

 

[jterrell]

Totally agree.

And IMO, DC is on to something with TC's attitude.

I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I don't really like the feeling I get from TC's interviews. All this talk of "Yeah man, it's hard, so hard to accept my role... But I do it for the good of the team" gets old from a second year (I know, now third) year backup running back who really hasn't done that much. I know you think you're a star RB who is being held back in this system, TC, but just keep playing well enough and you'll get your chance and your money in due time -- just like every other young player.

I hate to disagree with your agreeing but...

I suspect every coach wants guys on the bench who WANT to start and who are confident they will succeed if given the chance. Once a guy is like "Yea dude I am totally a bench player..." they are basically done. See various Troy Aikman/Emmitt Smith backups here.

I will concede that Choice has to make it less whiny though with talk of how tough it is and instead talk of just excelling at every given chance and proving the coaching staff he can do it.

 

[Stash]

What it is, is premature adulation. Choice simply hasn't had a big enough body of work to justify your man love for him.

And that is the fault of a coaching staff not playing him enough, not a player who produces every time he's called upon. We can only go by the data we have. And that data says that the player produces and that he produced on average more than this team's (less than 100%) starter did last year.

Felix has certainly generated the more explosive plays and Barber has certainly shown the ability to pound the ball and score TDs with efficiency.

Barber had shown that ability, before last season's injury. And Barber has also shown that he's a rotation back who is being paid top starter's money.

There are a handful of guys last year who had stats about the same as Choice: Justin Forsett, Mike Forte, Correll Burkhalter. All are solid players but none are considered stars. Choice is a legitimate NFL running back without question but he hasn't been this beast who tears up defenses. He is a solid player with good vision who is getting limited reps.

Is that Matt Forte? Regardless, I don't see what any of those names has to do with Choice and the Cowboys' situation last season.

Again, based upon stats Choice was better last year than Barber but it's impossible to simply say Choice would have averaged his same numbers as a main RB who was focused and game planned for if he had another 200 carries last year.

Just as 'impossible' to say he wouldn't have or to say that his numbers would have looked even better. But at the end of the day, they're the best and most factual data available. A lot better than baseless claims of struggles in pass protection.

You can't take 350 yards rushing and then just triple that based on carries.
There is a laundry list of guys who had 350 yards last year and looked good doing it. Most of the list isn't even known by average NFL fans.

Again, it's better and more valid than the excuse-making 'theories' being floated about.

 

[Everlastingxxx]

But barber had a torn quad and we had a big game in denver 14 days later and barber had a better day on the ground with less carries than choice

Choice did have more receiving yards. Two of his carries he lost yards, defenders were in the backfield at the handoff. He also had two runs called back because of penalties. One 10 yarder for a first down. The other a 17 yarder that would have helped closed the door on Denvers comeback.

 

[theebs]

Choice did have more receiving yards. Two of his carries he lost yards, defenders were in the backfield at the handoff. He also had two runs called back because of penalties. One 10 yarder for a first down. The other a 17 yarder that would have helped closed the door on Denvers comeback.

Yea runs get called back, it happens to all the backs.

and he caught 4 or 5 balls if I remember correctly and that is his role, that is the role he succeeds in...6-10 carries and a couple of catches in the third down role. And no I dont remember if his catches came on third down.

again, we went to denver with one healthy back and he didnt rush for as many as the injured player following a week where he was used as the focal point of the offense. So maybe there is something to it. Maybe not.

 

[jterrell]

And that is the fault of a coaching staff not playing him enough, not a player who produces every time he's called upon. We can only go by the data we have. And that data says that the player produces and that he produced on average more than this team's (less than 100%) starter did last year.



Barber had shown that ability, before last season's injury. And Barber has also shown that he's a rotation back who is being paid top starter's money.



Is that Matt Forte? Regardless, I don't see what any of those names has to do with Choice and the Cowboys' situation last season.



Just as 'impossible' to say he wouldn't have or to say that his numbers would have looked even better. But at the end of the day, they're the best and most factual data available. A lot better than baseless claims of struggles in pass protection.



Again, it's better and more valid than the excuse-making 'theories' being floated about.

I don't bother with going back and forth with each statement in quotes. It just makes each post take a page....

I simply summarize. The data actually shows Choice has been better with fewer carries not more. He has never had 100 yards rushing and his two biggest rushing games both came with single digit carries. His highest carry game was one of his very worst by yard per carry.

Yes, Matt Forte, which rather proves my point. Those players are mostly no-names and they have similar or BETTER production than Choice with similar limited carries. Limited carries lend itself to good production while heavy workloads generally lead to lesser.

Again while Barber's actual production was far from great last year his carries lessened the load on the other backs which kept them fresh later in the season. Felix got more work as the season came to a close. He played very well against Philly in the two biggest wins this team has had in a decade. Choice was actually knocked out of a game late in the year with a concussion and Felix has missed stretches in both seasons.

 

[Stash]

I simply summarize. The data actually shows Choice has been better with fewer carries not more. He has never had 100 yards rushing and his two biggest rushing games both came with single digit carries. His highest carry game was one of his very worst by yard per carry.

Conversely, Marion Barber has approximately 8 regular season games over 100 yards rushing out of a possible 75 played. If that's your barometer, Barber scores even more poorly.

Yes, Matt Forte, which rather proves my point. Those players are mostly no-names and they have similar or BETTER production than Choice with similar limited carries. Limited carries lend itself to good production while heavy workloads generally lead to lesser.

Matt Forte is the lead running back in Chicago. There wasn't anyone there to challenge him or limit his carries. Apples and oranges comparison.

Again while Barber's actual production was far from great last year his carries lessened the load on the other backs which kept them fresh later in the season. Felix got more work as the season came to a close. He played very well against Philly in the two biggest wins this team has had in a decade. Choice was actually knocked out of a game late in the year with a concussion and Felix has missed stretches in both seasons.

So Barber started and got the majority of the carries so we could rest Jones and Choice? Brilliant strategy there...

 

[AbeBeta]

If this is true, then it makes for odd substitution packages. If you look at the games toward the end of the season, we would almost exclusively substitute in Choice during obvious passing downs (he probably had 80+% of the snaps in those situations).

There's no real discernible pattern to playing Barber and Felix (as far as I can tell), but when it came time for a passing down, we would send in Choice.

Hmmm. Just looking at our final game. Barber is in pass blocking more than half the time. Choice did more in the WC game but there was something clearly wrong with Marion that day as he took fewer than 10 snaps. Going to the final week of the season, Choice is in hardly at all. Washington, same pattern. Looks like Choice got maybe a quarter of the snaps that Barber did.

So I'm not really seeing it. You are correct that when Choice played it was mostly on passing downs. But he simply didn't play all that much.

 

[Marktui]

That play can be taken different ways.

They were in field goal range and Romo did not want to take a sack, so he took the hot read. He threw it early thinking Choice should have been able to outrun Osi to the corner and make a first down.

If he waited until Choice was in between the DB and DL, might have been a chance of Safety coming over the top and intercepting the pass.

I really don't see much to Choice and the Romo situation.

 

[jterrell]

Conversely, Marion Barber has approximately 8 regular season games over 100 yards rushing out of a possible 75 played. If that's your barometer, Barber scores even more poorly.



Matt Forte is the lead running back in Chicago. There wasn't anyone there to challenge him or limit his carries. Apples and oranges comparison.



So Barber started and got the majority of the carries so we could rest Jones and Choice? Brilliant strategy there...

Barber has ~4000 yards rushing and 43 rushing TDs in 5 years. If you are trying to discuss actual production you have no point.

As to Forte you are correct. I was looking as a pool of backs and his backup was the guy with similar production, Forte's ypc wasn't even close....

Burkhalter, Forsett, Kevin Faulk, Reggie Bush, Kenneth Darby, Kahlil Bell, Pierre Thomas and Aaron Brown however all fit that mold....

As to the strategy, it isn't overly brilliant, it is common sense. With 25 carries a week it is doubtful either back makes it 3 years in the league. In fact the NFL average at RB was about 3 years before they started going with these platoons and tandems. Your man Choice had concussion last year. How many of those before he is retiring?

These points aren't even worth debating because they are simple common sense.

 

[SilverStarCowboy]

Marion is our Veteran who happens to be as atleast as talanted as Choice. He's able to not take the direct punishment from tacklers, plus he's far better at pass protection for Romo-licious.


Marion Barber-ian is a more complete and savey NFL Pro, it's simple as that, all this conjecture is funny.

Especially when healthy Barber-ian can take the tough hit without being phased, while Choice often takes the hard hit too many times and ends up gimpy/blurred.

Emmitt had a style that works for Pro RBs where he was able to skirt the direct hit, he slid off hits that kept him in the NFL for a long time. Choice better takes some notes before he gets lit up yet again in 2010...BOOOM! hard direct hits like he has taken in both of his prior season.

 

[Stash]

Barber has ~4000 yards rushing and 43 rushing TDs in 5 years. If you are trying to discuss actual production you have no point.

Negative.

You're the guy who tried using Choice's lack of 100 yard rushing games as some sort of strike against him. I was using the same benchmark for Barber. And now you don't seem to like that stat quite as much.

As to the strategy, it isn't overly brilliant, it is common sense. With 25 carries a week it is doubtful either back makes it 3 years in the league. In fact the NFL average at RB was about 3 years before they started going with these platoons and tandems. Your man Choice had concussion last year. How many of those before he is retiring?

Do we really want to start talking injuries when Marion Barber's name is in the discussion?

Choice had a concussion last year? Oh no! Maybe he should retire now while he still can! Is that your point? Heck Bennett got one too. He and anyone else who's ever had one should call it quits right now too by your logic.

These points aren't even worth debating because they are simple common sense.

Not 'worth' it because your point makes no sense and your case falls apart.

 

[SilverStarCowboy]

Do we really want to start talking injuries when Marion Barber's name is in the discussion?

Why not, that is a HUGE part of why Choice hasn't become higher up on the NFL RB Totem pole. RBs on this level can't take the direct hit many times by LBs and DLs. Choice ain't skeered, give him that much but he often gets dinged because of his recklessness.


Face the bottom line on our RBs since Dallas aquired this Three Headed RB Monster they've all been sent to the bench to sit and miss time at one point or another from injury.


Maybe we should change the nick name to the Three Headed injury Monster.

 

[Stash]

WHy not, that is a HUGE part of why Choice hasn't become higher up on the NFL RB Totem pole. RBs on this level can't take the direct hit many times by LBs and DLs. Choice ain't skeered, give him that much but he often gets dinged because of his recklessness.

As opposed to your supposedly 'elusive' Marion Barber? Your attempted point is beyond futile, it's completely inaccurate. If there's any one player on this entire team who takes too much unnecessary punishment it's Barber.

Face the bottom line on our RBs since Dallas aquired this Three Headed RB Monster they've all been sent to the bench to sit and miss time at one point or another from injury.


Maybe we should change the nick name to the Three Headed injury Monster.

And that's the point of having three good ones. To have them - and use them - when need be.

 

[SilverStarCowboy]

As opposed to your supposedly 'elusive' Marion Barber?

Seen Choice take on harder hits than Barber....it looked painful.

If there's any one player on this entire team who takes too much unnecessary punishment it's Barber.

That is what the media led confusion and casual minded conjecture says but what they are usually referring to is Barber handing out more punishment than he recieves like that is a bad thing.

Your attempted point is beyond futile, it's completely inaccurate.

:tongue:

 

[theogt]

Hmmm. Just looking at our final game. Barber is in pass blocking more than half the time. Choice did more in the WC game but there was something clearly wrong with Marion that day as he took fewer than 10 snaps. Going to the final week of the season, Choice is in hardly at all. Washington, same pattern. Looks like Choice got maybe a quarter of the snaps that Barber did.

So I'm not really seeing it. You are correct that when Choice played it was mostly on passing downs. But he simply didn't play all that much.

Look at the last 6 games of the season. For example, in the Saints game, there were 15 obvious passing downs and Choice was in on 10 of them (Felix got 3 and Barber got 2). In the Commanders game there were 9 obvious passing downs and Choice was in on 6 of them (Barber had 2 and Felix got 1).

The trend in those games is that Barber only gets the nod when it's an obvious passing down on 2nd down (e.g., 2nd and 20).

 

[brendang86]

The Cowboys took MRI's. They knew every detail.

can MRI's see pulled muscles?