I'm still not thrilled w/ the OL

[AMERICAS_FAN]

While the free-agent OL moves have been necessary, I'm still not all that thrilled about the OL as it stands right now.

At LT we still have a guy in Adams who is coming back from an knee-injury that takes at least a full season's time before nearing 100%. And who do we have backing up Flozell? Please don't say Fabini because he was brought in to play RT. If he steps in for Flo, then who plays RT?

Speaking of RT, Fabini was an okay signing but the guy's got age on him and is also coming off an injury. And now we wnat him to switch positions from LT to RT? And we still have veery little to back him up there. To that end, I like Pettiti but he's just not ready to man the position next season - which is why Fabini was signed. In fact if Fabini went down then I'd be inclined to start Tucker over Pettiti, and that's saying something frightening.

At LG we're likely moving to replace a legend in Larry Allen with a good - but not great - player. I like Kossier (sp?), but let's not pretend he's an upgrade over Larry Allen. All he has over Allen is younger age. I'll call this a push before calling it an upgrade. If Kossier gets a little bit better, then he might be able to match the play of a Larry Allen in his decline. And I mean "Might"!

At Center all we have is Al Johnson - who played poorly last season - and Gurode to challenge - who also played poorly when filling in at Center. If Gurode wins the job I'd be concerned, because that would say more about Al Johnson's fall than aout Gurode's rise. Basically we still have this huge gaping hole in the middle of the line, leaving the quickest lane betwen the defense and Bledsoe wide-open.

And finally at RG we still have Rivera, who played well below par last aseason. And again, we're very thin behind him. He had a back injury and at his age, those just don't go away quietly. And unfortunately we have nothing behind him to back-up that bad back. Too bad Peterman can only play the backup spot at LG, if he can even do that???


Long story short, the OL signings Dallas has made are very necessary but I don't believe we;ve really upgraded the OL just yet. There's still a lot of free-agency left, the upcoming draft, and even june 1st cuts to follow. And given the current state of the OL we better still be targeting OL in all of those offseason phases, because what we've done up to now isn't a whole lot.

**

 

[Cowboy4ever]

Well lets think about this for a minute.. if we started the same OL we did last year...and Flo didn't go down,, whose to say we dont keep on the pace we were on.. and finsh 11-5 or better. That tells me that what we bascially needed was some depth. So lets look,, Fabini,, good pick up.. can play either Tackle positon ina pinch, but will start RT. Kosier,, can play everything but center.. but will prob end up playing LG and i agree he is not LA in his prime,, but right now.. only thing LA is blocking are DL that dont' move any better than he does. Kosier provides, someone that can move to his right and left, Allen just can't do that anymore. Al Johnson should be bigger and stronger,, with a full year in the training program,, he was rehabing that first off season.. Rivera,, should be alot better,, or at least he better be. Pettiti,, agreed, not a starter, but def a good back up at RT. Tucker won't make it past june 1. And we still will draft a quaility OL in the draft. Over all.. I like our line alot better tonight than i did back in december. Not all pro, but should be good enough to make some noise with.

 

[visionary]

i think this off season is all about options and flexibility at the OL. we may or may not bring in another OL in FA (like Neal) and will still draft an OL on Day 1 (round 2 most likely).

this TC will be very interesting in that except LT all jobs will be up in the air but we will have options to fall back on (unlike last year) if the young guys dont work out. that was my only beef with what we had done so far, i think it would be great if the young guys like petitti, johnson work out but in case they dont, i wanted us too have options because we want to hopefully) make a SB run this year and next.

the position i am most concerned about is center because neither young guys have shown the capacity to put it all together and be dominant and i am not sure why we expect them to be able to suddenly do it this year. i hope what BP sees in them comes to fruition this year. to me it all starts at the center position with the correct line calls and not getting pushed back to collapse the pocket since that is the shortest path to the QB and then he cant step up to make the throws. this is why this is one place i would have spent money and paid bentley.

having said that, i will be happy if we come out of TC with 5 clear starters who will play the whole year and develop continuity because that is the name of the game at OL, CONTINUITY. if the same 5 guys start all year, by the second half of the season we should start to see better cohesiveness at the OL and we might have a better record in the second half of the year than in the first half.

wouldnt that be a welcome change !!!

 

[Rush 2112]

Who would you have suggested at LT, RT (Fabini has started at both), or LG?

 

[Glenn Carano]

While I'll agree that I'm not completely happy with the O-line, I'm pretty sure it'll be much better than last year. In your analysis, you took the worst case scenario approach.

Here's my more positive analysis

LT - Flo is back and reverts to form from a few years ago.

LG - Kosier is in, LA is out. While Kosier is no LA, he will provide more mobility and athleticism to the position. He'll be able to pull, and actually move to his left and right, unlike LA.

C - The added weight that Al gained with improve his strength and not allow him to be pushed around and finally turn into the player we thought we had when we drafted him.

RG - Rivera's back will not be bothering him this year and he'll revert back to Green Bay form.

RT - Fabini will solidify the right side, very solid tackle.

Depth - Gurode at C and RG. Big and strong, showed some signs last year, good and bad. Seriously though, Gurode is a nice guy to have on your roster. He can back up all 3 interior line positions and you know BP loves that.

LG - Peterman. Coming along.

T - Pettiti. He did start all 16 games as a rook and will get better. He'll back up RT. If Flo goes down, move Fabini to LT and Pettiti to RT. If both T's go down, then we're done.

In addition to all of that, we'll probably draft an O-lineman and you never know about Colombo either.

 

[AMERICAS_FAN]

Who would you have suggested at LT, RT (Fabini has started at both), or LG?

I never said our signings were bad ones; in fact I indicated the signings were okay and necessary. But unlike many on this board who are getting overly-enthusiastic about the OL signings, I'm going ot curb my enthusuasm because whie the signings are good the OL is still running in place. Much MUCH more needs to be done along the OL before we can truly consider it upgraded.

**

 

[Rush 2112]

Tucker, LA, Petiti vs Flo, Kosier, Fabini.

3/5th's of the OL upgraded and we've got a backup RT with 16 games starting experience.

Maybe Rivera is healthier....that's 4/5th's.

Al Johnson is a junior now vs a sophomore and reportedly putting on size this off season.

Still have rest of FA, draft and vet cuts to go.

 

[jterrell]

The key is really what you mentionned: Health.

Last year we had no one who could fill in at positions without severely downgrading. And yet were still decent or better with Flo in the lineup.

Fabini can play LT. While he isn't Flo he is also not going to lead the league in sacks allowed.

If you move Fabini because Flo gets hurt again you play Petitti at RT. Which is fine IMHO in doses but not as a day 1 solution until he proves he can handle it.

The real question mark for me is merely center. I thought we should have signed a stop gap OC, allowed Gurode to hit the bricks and told Al Johnson to get bigger and stronger while not exerting so much football effort.

 

[silverbear]

While the free-agent OL moves have been necessary, I'm still not all that thrilled about the OL as it stands right now.

Seems to me that it's rare that you're happy about anything the Boys do, so I'm not really surprised... but I'll play along anyway, see if I can answer your questions...

At LT we still have a guy in Adams who is coming back from an knee-injury that takes at least a full season's time before nearing 100%. And who do we have backing up Flozell? Please don't say Fabini because he was brought in to play RT. If he steps in for Flo, then who plays RT?

Fabini moves to LT, Petitti becomes the RT... whoever the Cowboys draft on the first day (and you can count on them drafting an OT on the first day) will also factor into the mix...

Speaking of RT, Fabini was an okay signing but the guy's got age on him and is also coming off an injury.

he tore a muscle, I think in his chest... it should be completely healed by now, thus no big deal... you probably don't know that before he got injured, he'd started 89 straight games, so it ain't like he's injury-prone... as for the age thing, he'll turn 32 in August, and offensive linemen often play into their mid to late 30s, sometimes into their 40s (Ray Brown)... so it's quite reasonable to expect he has at least 3 more productive years ahead of him...

I like it when the Cowboys sign young free agents too, but sometimes you have to plug the gap with quality, older vets...

And now we wnat him to switch positions from LT to RT? And we still have veery little to back him up there.

Fabini has played RT before, even started there a number of games last season...

To that end, I like Pettiti but he's just not ready to man the position next season - which is why Fabini was signed. In fact if Fabini went down then I'd be inclined to start Tucker over Pettiti, and that's saying something frightening.

There's an old cliche among NFL types, that the most progress a young player makes is between his rookie season and his second... that player has gotten a chance to get his feet wet in the NFL, and now understands what he needs to do to be successful... further, rookies often "hit the wall" late in their rookie seasons, because college seasons are so much shorter... finally, Petitti had to shed some 25-30 pounds last summer just to make the team, and that probably left him a bit weak... I know I've recently lost 35 pounds, and I fell somewhat weaker than I did... a full offseason in the Cowboys' program ought to help in that area...

All of which is my typically long-winded way of saying that I want to see if he's not able to address his problems in this offseason... to me, worst case scenario is that he proves to be a little too slow-footed at OT, and has to move inside to OG, a la Kevin Gogan...

At LG we're likely moving to replace a legend in Larry Allen with a good - but not great - player. I like Kossier (sp?), but let's not pretend he's an upgrade over Larry Allen. All he has over Allen is younger age. I'll call this a push before calling it an upgrade.

OK, fair enough... BTW, since you asked, just one "s" in Kosier...

At Center all we have is Al Johnson - who played poorly last season -

The reason Parcells likes Johnson is that he's good in space, he has good mobility... we saw that in 05... his problem is that he gets knocked back off the ball too often, he needs to get stronger... I was disappointed that he didn't get stronger last offseason, but I think he probably had to focus on rehabbing his knee after that microfracture surgery... the good news is one of the Metroplex mediots (can't remember which one) said in a published piece a day or so ago that Johnson has already gotten bigger... give the guy some strength, and he might be fine...

And finally at RG we still have Rivera, who played well below par last aseason.

Uhhh, you do know that Rivera had to have back surgery in May of last year, don't you?? I have a hunch that at no point in the season did he get back to anywhere near 100 per cent...

And given the current state of the OL we better still be targeting OL in all of those offseason phases, because what we've done up to now isn't a whole lot.

I'm pretty sure you won't see the Boys pursuing any more free agent offensive linemen... they'll almost certainly draft an OT on the first day, might even draft one late, but no more free agents...

You also probably ought to factor in Marc Colombo, a former first round draft pick who's finally healthy for the first time since he entered the league... and the Boys might ultimately decide to renegotiate Larry Allen's contract, rather than release him...

So, potentially, the Cowboys have the following:

OT-- Adams, Fabini, Colombo. Pettiti, Tucker, high draft pick
OG-- Rivera, Kosier, Gurode, maybe Larry Allen, Tucker
C-- Johnson, Gurode

I'm not entirely comfortable with the center position either (maybe that 2nd day pick could be a C/G type), too many question marks, but all in all, I can live with that line...

Adding Fabini, Kosier and a likely high draft pick is about as much upgrading as we could have reasonably expected, I think... that group will be better than last year's line, I'm pretty sure of that...

 

[AMERICAS_FAN]

While I'll agree that I'm not completely happy with the O-line, I'm pretty sure it'll be much better than last year. In your analysis, you took the worst case scenario approach.

Here's my more positive analysis

LT - Flo is back and reverts to form from a few years ago.

Guys coming back the first year from an ACL-tear don't do that. Not realistic.

LG - Kosier is in, LA is out. While Kosier is no LA, he will provide more mobility and athleticism to the position. He'll be able to pull, and actually move to his left and right, unlike LA.

Kosier may move better but he can't block better. He's no Larry Allen, like you just said!

C - The added weight that Al gained with improve his strength and not allow him to be pushed around and finally turn into the player we thought we had when we drafted him.

Yes the offseason program may help Al Johnson as he progresses more than a year away from his injury. But I'd still be more comfortable than with just Gurode behind him.

RG - Rivera's back will not be bothering him this year and he'll revert back to Green Bay form.

Wishful thinking, and unrealistic thinking all at the same time.

RT - Fabini will solidify the right side, very solid tackle.

Well, he'll surely upgrade the RT spot; then again it's not that hard to do. His age does concern me, more because of thec injury he's recovering from.

Depth - Gurode at C and RG. Big and strong, showed some signs last year, good and bad. Seriously though, Gurode is a nice guy to have on your roster. He can back up all 3 interior line positions and you know BP loves that.

Actually, I think Gurode has potentially some good upside - more than Al Johnson, I'm afraid.

LG - Peterman. Coming along.

No he's not. Kosier would not have been signed if he was.

T - Pettiti. He did start all 16 games as a rook and will get better. He'll back up RT. If Flo goes down, move Fabini to LT and Pettiti to RT. If both T's go down, then we're done.

Pettit got worse and worse as the seaon went on last year. I think he can serve as the backup for either Tackle spot. Let's just hope he doeasn't have to for another season or so.

In addition to all of that, we'll probably draft an O-lineman and you never know about Colombo either.

We better draft more than one OLineman. And yes, Colombo is a big mystery that we won't find out more about until training camp. I wouldn't put my eggs in that basket If I'm Parcells.

**

 

[Bledsoe4MVP]

While the free-agent OL moves have been necessary, I'm still not all that thrilled about the OL as it stands right now.

At LT we still have a guy in Adams who is coming back from an knee-injury that takes at least a full season's time before nearing 100%. And who do we have backing up Flozell? Please don't say Fabini because he was brought in to play RT. If he steps in for Flo, then who plays RT?

Speaking of RT, Fabini was an okay signing but the guy's got age on him and is also coming off an injury. And now we wnat him to switch positions from LT to RT? And we still have veery little to back him up there. To that end, I like Pettiti but he's just not ready to man the position next season - which is why Fabini was signed. In fact if Fabini went down then I'd be inclined to start Tucker over Pettiti, and that's saying something frightening.

At LG we're likely moving to replace a legend in Larry Allen with a good - but not great - player. I like Kossier (sp?), but let's not pretend he's an upgrade over Larry Allen. All he has over Allen is younger age. I'll call this a push before calling it an upgrade. If Kossier gets a little bit better, then he might be able to match the play of a Larry Allen in his decline. And I mean "Might"!

At Center all we have is Al Johnson - who played poorly last season - and Gurode to challenge - who also played poorly when filling in at Center. If Gurode wins the job I'd be concerned, because that would say more about Al Johnson's fall than aout Gurode's rise. Basically we still have this huge gaping hole in the middle of the line, leaving the quickest lane betwen the defense and Bledsoe wide-open.

And finally at RG we still have Rivera, who played well below par last aseason. And again, we're very thin behind him. He had a back injury and at his age, those just don't go away quietly. And unfortunately we have nothing behind him to back-up that bad back. Too bad Peterman can only play the backup spot at LG, if he can even do that???


Long story short, the OL signings Dallas has made are very necessary but I don't believe we;ve really upgraded the OL just yet. There's still a lot of free-agency left, the upcoming draft, and even june 1st cuts to follow. And given the current state of the OL we better still be targeting OL in all of those offseason phases, because what we've done up to now isn't a whole lot.

**

No team goes into the season with 5 probowls at every postion on the offensive line....and it's even more rare to play an entire 16 games with the same starting five due to injuries, roster tinkering, etc

Look at last year, before Flozell went down they did a very good job IMO....and this was with Rivera struggling with his health coming off back surgery, Petitti struggling as a rookie, and musical chairs at center with Gurode and Johnson.

Now assuming that Gurode settles in as the full time starter, Fabini and Flozell come back from their injuries to play effective, Kosier steps in for LA(if he's released) and Rivera comes back healthier than last year.....than this is going to be one good offensive line, maybe not the best in the leauge...but good enough to protect Drew and open up the running game.

Also if we add Sowell he will be an immediate uprgrade over Polite and will bring solid blocking to the mix as well.

I'm really optimistic about this oline, but I still hope we draft some solid depth in rounds 2-7 for contingency. Let's just hope that everybody stays healthy through training camp!!

 

[silverbear]

No team goes into the season with 5 probowls at every postion on the offensive line....

Once upon a time, the Cowboys did... in the glory days of Jimmy...

Mark Tuinei, Larry Allen, Mark Stepnoski, Nate Newton, Erik Williams... THAT was the real secret to the Cowboys' success back then... that was the best offensive line in the history of the game...

They weren't all Pro Bowlers in the same year, but all of the starters had been to more than one Pro Bowl...

Of course, the salary cap rules were a bit different back then...

 

[Bledsoe4MVP]

Once upon a time, the Cowboys did... in the glory days of Jimmy...

Mark Tuinei, Larry Allen, Mark Stepnoski, Nate Newton, Erik Williams... THAT was the real secret to the Cowboys' success back then... that was the best offensive line in the history of the game...

They weren't all Pro Bowlers in the same year, but all of the starters had been to more than one Pro Bowl...

Of course, the salary cap rules were a bit different back then...

Very true, if only we had that line right now....but like you said that was a different era.

The chiefs and seahawks have done a pretty good job in recent years with multiple starters in the probowl, but even they break down at times.

I'm not looking for perfection, just the right mix of veteran leadership and youth....and as of right now that's exactly what we have. Let's hope that LA remains a cowboy!

 

[Doomsday]

I like the fact that they added some good depth to the oline without breaking the bank, other than Hutchinson there really isnt anyone worth going broke for.

Id also like to add that the oline would look alot better if we had a RB capable of making the first guy miss everyone once in a while. I know we had a great oline in the 90's but how often did Emmitt make the first guy miss?

 

[MichaelWinicki]

While the line isn't massively better right now it's looking a good 20% better to me. And if you improve the pass protection by 20% and the running game improves 20% we're talking about an offense that is much better than last year and looks like a solid playoff offense.

 

[Zippy Speedster]

I'll believe LA is out when his walking papers are deliverd to us by dc.com.

I think just the fact that so much time has passed by into the free agency period and he's still here, says alot. Jerry has always been an owner kind enough to give his players ample time to find new homes if he isn't going to resign them. If a deal wasn't close I think both parties would just say enough is enough, my client will go out and look elsewhere for employment for 2006 on another club. But that's not happening. Both sides are obviously hoping something gets worked out.

 

[JohnsKey19]

Obviously we're not stout up front like the KC Chiefs or anything. But just being average up front next season would be a HUGE improvement over last year's group. Assuming we stay relatively healthy, at least teams can't go into games KNOWING they can befuddle both OTs as they did the 2nd half of the season.

 

[Zippy Speedster]

Lets also not rule out the draft. I say with #18 we take Winston at OT, or even trade down for the best OG in the draft, Max Jean-Gilles, adding a few picks for us along the way. Or taking Winston and then trading up with our 2nd rounder to get us in position to take that Jean-Gilles, also.

Our options are far from being exhausted as long as we plan on going heavy on the line in the draft. Which I think we will. Just the fact that we targeted a WR like TO says alot. It says we're looking towards the Offense this season. And really no point in going for an offensive playmaker if the quarterback isn't going to have time to get him the ball. No, there's a bigger plan underway here--we don't fix the one we fixed without fixing the other. You don't buy the bullets unless you plan on purchasing the gun very soon...or already own one. We don't, so we're in the market. No LB this year in the draft like so many of you think will happen.

 

[Glenn Carano]

Guys coming back the first year from an ACL-tear don't do that. Not realistic.



Kosier may move better but he can't block better. He's no Larry Allen, like you just said!



Yes the offseason program may help Al Johnson as he progresses more than a year away from his injury. But I'd still be more comfortable than with just Gurode behind him.



Wishful thinking, and unrealistic thinking all at the same time.



Well, he'll surely upgrade the RT spot; then again it's not that hard to do. His age does concern me, more because of thec injury he's recovering from.



Actually, I think Gurode has potentially some good upside - more than Al Johnson, I'm afraid.



No he's not. Kosier would not have been signed if he was.



Pettit got worse and worse as the seaon went on last year. I think he can serve as the backup for either Tackle spot. Let's just hope he doeasn't have to for another season or so.



We better draft more than one OLineman. And yes, Colombo is a big mystery that we won't find out more about until training camp. I wouldn't put my eggs in that basket If I'm Parcells.

**

Pessimism in the air?

 

[burmafrd]

You guys need to remember something about Johnson. He has had 2 1/2 YEARS since his surgery to get bigger and stronger- and he hasn't.
Last season was his SECOND as a full time starter after taking a YEAR off to recover from his surgery. He is NOT going to get any bigger or stronger unless he bulks up- and that will take away from his quickness- which was the only thing he had going for him. I cannot believe how many here cannot COUNT. He has had 2 full off seasons- 2 full TC's- AFTER a YEAR OFF from his surgery. He is not going to get any stronger unless he trades bulk for quickness.