Improving at LG

[Pantone282C]

L. Collins excels at LG and needs to return there. Doesn't have the arm length for a true tackle. Sure, he can improve at tackle, but why take him away from his best position? Get a true tackle in the draft. Coop er does well enough with our Oline starters. He is getting older, but still has at least one good year in him. Would like to see how K. Edwards does. Collins was a good backup to Leary, who just had bad luck and probably a bad attitude.

 

[diefree666]

I've stated in previous posts that our line this season was drug down by the play at the LG and RT positions. The players we lost there were much better than the guys who filled in those positions this season. For some reason people on this board (and back on DC) have convinced themselves that Collins played well, when in reality he didn't. We don't have to rehash that debate though and I can only hope that we draft a tackle that can push him.

When it comes to LG though, I have to believe that most people realize that Cooper was trash soup in 2017. Many hoped that his play would elevate between Smith and Frederick but that simply wasn't the case....he's a bad player and we get nothing from him at that position. We could draft a Guard but we already know that we need to draft a Tackle (for depth at the very least) and really can't afford to be picking two OL players, much less hope that we can find two good ones in the draft.

So I want to throw a name out there that I'd like us to go after in free agency: Justin Pugh from the Giants. He was a first round pick of theirs in 2013; he started his career with them as a RT where he performed at an okay level before moving to LG. He was much a much better guard for them his first two years doing it (2015 and 2016) and in fact, he graded out better in 2016 as a LG than Leary did for us in 2016. The kicker is that his 2017 was bad....there could be a ton of explanations for this....he did play through injuries, the Oline talent around him regressed (particularly at Center) and the entire Giants team was a shipwreck in 2017.

I think this could benefit us however....I think his poor 2017 could simply be an anomaly and he could return to form. The Giants don't appear interested in keeping him and we could perhaps get him on a decent deal considering his play last season. I especially like his chances to perform well between Smith and Frederick; I'm at least confident that he outperforms Cooper there. He's 27 and I would certainly be interested in getting him on a 3-4 year deal. Thoughts?

I now know to ignore any further posts from you.

 

[conner01]

I agree about guard. They need to move Collins back to guard. He's not a tackle. He gets beat by speed and he has a hard time holding his blocks. Start looking for a real RT.

I thought he played pretty well at RT as the season went on
But he’s paid and will be a RT
So let’s sign coop back or draft a guy

 

[Idgit]

This is my new favorite thread.

 

[armadillooutlaw]

This is my new favorite thread.

Yo Idgit, I've always wondered, what is your avatar of?

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I wish. The LG position on the line usually faces the worst pass rusher on the Dline and he still manages to get beat every week. And we literally cannot run behind him....he creates no space for a RB to get through. No, he hasn't had a game like Chaz Green did with Atlanta that completely blows up the offensive game plan, but he literally provides nothing to help the team on the field. We're playing with ten guys.

He started off slow but came on late. He drive blocks and anchors well. He's average out in space and will give up some pressure to quicker players but then again so did Leary. Once he got better at recognition of blitzes and stunts he was fine.

Frankly, I think you have no idea what you are watching if you think we could not run behind him. His issues were quick penetrations not driving straight ahead.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I agree about guard. They need to move Collins back to guard. He's not a tackle. He gets beat by speed and he has a hard time holding his blocks. Start looking for a real RT.

He took time to get his timing down but after he handled Mack it was obvious he was fine. The bottomline is he got better as the year went on. I recall your take regarding Tyron after his first year at LT. People were saying move him back to RT. LC will be fine. He was sure as hell better than Free.

 

[armadillooutlaw]

He started off slow but came on late. He drive blocks and anchors well. He's average out in space and will give up some pressure to quicker players but then again so did Leary. Once he got better at recognition of blitzes and stunts he was fine.

Frankly, I think you have no idea what you are watching if you think we could not run behind him. His issues were quick penetrations not driving straight ahead.

Yep. Good post.

 

[buybuydandavis]

Pugh is one of those guys who personally hates the Cowboys. You'd probably have to offer him a premium just to consider us.

There's "football hate", then there is a man's career and financial well being. Being a part of the Cowboys oline is good for both.

I expect them to rotate through starting LGs who come cheap and leave more expensive, churning a little extra comp pick value every year. Pugh seems like a good candidate for that churn.

 

[cowboyec]

Meh. Cooper did okay.

I'm all for bringing him back and taking a G that can possibly play Swing Tackle.

I also want to see if the new OL coach can get Green back up to speed.

I'm curious about that too.
If Chaz Green has anything left....Paul Alexander will get it out of him.
Id still prefer a OG in the draft.

 

[Idgit]

Yo Idgit, I've always wondered, what is your avatar of?

Look up 'Don't Hug Me, I'm Scared' if you're interested. It's Red Guy, obviously.

 

[buybuydandavis]

I thought Cooper was fine. Improved through the year, probably would continue improving next year.

Can't put big bucks, big picks into every olineman. We have needs elsewhere.

 

[buybuydandavis]

I'm curious about that too.
If Chaz Green has anything left....Paul Alexander will get it out of him.

A new coach should be good for Green back at swing tackle. A new guy not associated with the debacle this year won't have to be pointing fingers at Green.

 

[condoin125]

Lol this board. It's quite obvious that our Oline took a big step back this year compared to the past three years....and most here have acknowledged that through the season. And yet, it seems the majority of you are fine with the two new pieces to the line, Collins and Cooper (the most obvious reasons for the decline). How exactly do most of you think the regression occurred? Do you actually think it's all attributed to Tyron Smith and his injury issues??? Cuz Frederick and Martin were monsters at their positions again this season.

I understand that our Oline doesn't necessarily need to be the best every year or even top 3 good...but if it's going to be a strength of this team then it needs to be better than it was in 2017.

 

[diefree666]

Lol this board. It's quite obvious that our Oline took a big step back this year compared to the past three years....and most here have acknowledged that through the season. And yet, it seems the majority of you are fine with the two new pieces to the line, Collins and Cooper (the most obvious reasons for the decline). How exactly do most of you think the regression occurred? Do you actually think it's all attributed to Tyron Smith and his injury issues??? Cuz Frederick and Martin were monsters at their positions again this season.

I understand that our Oline doesn't necessarily need to be the best every year or even top 3 good...but if it's going to be a strength of this team then it needs to be better than it was in 2017.

simply because most of us here think you are at best wrong and more likely know NOTHING about football.

 

[condoin125]

simply because most of us here think you are at best wrong and more likely know NOTHING about football.

Thought you were ignoring all of my posts going forward? Please go back to doing that as you are incapable of having a constructive debate with ANYONE on this forum. We get it, you absolutely love anyone who's ever worn the star but your childish adoration of the team does nothing for those who want to have serious debate.

 

[Denim Chicken]

Thoughts?

I believe that you're not considering the fact that the the LG position was mishandled by the front office. Not making a decision between Green and Cooper in camp, having them swap, and then ultimately making a change late in the season hampered Coopers progress. Them having Smith go in and out further complicated matters. As for Collins, this was his first year at RT and he was solid--already an upgrade over Free. He will only improve as he plays the position; and again, it was only his first year.

One of the most underrated facets that affects overall line play is continuity. We need to have our 5 guys set and allow them time to gel together. Last year was a mess in the start of the season, but you could see the improvement when we started Cooper with Smith playing. IMO those are the 5 guys we need to get behind. I would be very hesitant to replace another part of the line going into this nest season.

 

[CCBoy]

I've stated in previous posts that our line this season was drug down by the play at the LG and RT positions. The players we lost there were much better than the guys who filled in those positions this season. For some reason people on this board (and back on DC) have convinced themselves that Collins played well, when in reality he didn't. We don't have to rehash that debate though and I can only hope that we draft a tackle that can push him.

When it comes to LG though, I have to believe that most people realize that Cooper was trash soup in 2017. Many hoped that his play would elevate between Smith and Frederick but that simply wasn't the case....he's a bad player and we get nothing from him at that position. We could draft a Guard but we already know that we need to draft a Tackle (for depth at the very least) and really can't afford to be picking two OL players, much less hope that we can find two good ones in the draft.

So I want to throw a name out there that I'd like us to go after in free agency: Justin Pugh from the Giants. He was a first round pick of theirs in 2013; he started his career with them as a RT where he performed at an okay level before moving to LG. He was much a much better guard for them his first two years doing it (2015 and 2016) and in fact, he graded out better in 2016 as a LG than Leary did for us in 2016. The kicker is that his 2017 was bad....there could be a ton of explanations for this....he did play through injuries, the Oline talent around him regressed (particularly at Center) and the entire Giants team was a shipwreck in 2017.

I think this could benefit us however....I think his poor 2017 could simply be an anomaly and he could return to form. The Giants don't appear interested in keeping him and we could perhaps get him on a decent deal considering his play last season. I especially like his chances to perform well between Smith and Frederick; I'm at least confident that he outperforms Cooper there. He's 27 and I would certainly be interested in getting him on a 3-4 year deal. Thoughts?

Myself, I'd prefer to take one of the top four guards via the draft...and save our cap for another player.

 

[Denim Chicken]

I guess if you want to go with a guy who gives up regular pressure every game and who we are completely unable to run behind.

Elliott w/o Cooper @ LG1: 104, 8, 80
Elliott w/ Cooper @ LG1: 80, 85, 116, 147, 150, 93, 97,103

 

[condoin125]

I believe that you're not considering the fact that the the LG position was mishandled by the front office. Not making a decision between Green and Cooper in camp, having them swap, and then ultimately making a change late in the season hampered Coopers progress. Them having Smith go in and out further complicated matters. As for Collins, this was his first year at RT and he was solid--already an upgrade over Free. He will only improve as he plays the position, but again it was only his first year.

One of the most underrated facets that affects overall line play is continuity. We need to have our 5 guys set and allow them time to gel together. Last year was a mess in the start of the season, but you could see the improvement when we started Cooper with Smith playing. IMO those are the 5 guys we need to get behind. I would be very hesitant to replace another part of the line going into this nest season.

Continuity for an Oline is an important, no argument. Except I think you're over blowing how badly the LG position was handled; Cooper played 13 games at LG which is the majority of the season. I understand that people may want to ride it out with Collins at RT...at least there's a case to be made for him because he has some talent. Rolling with Cooper for the sake of continuity makes no sense to me though, the guy has been with four different teams in his short career for a reason....he's simply a busted draft pick. New England didn't play him a single game because they knew he couldn't play well. PFF graded him below average on the year and ranked him as the #35 guard. For perspective, they graded Martin as the #2 guard on the season.

PFF just posted an article based on their raw data collecting for offensive line units. It covers each team's yards before contact for their RBs....basically how many yards the team's Oline is generating for the RB before the RB is touched.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/ne...-best-offensive-lines-in-yards-before-contact

If you view the chart you can see that Dallas is all the way down to #13 after being a top five unit last season in this stat. And the sad part about this is that run blocking was the "strength" of our unit in 2017....not pass blocking. Martin and Frederick both had monster seasons in 2017....Tyron Smith even with his injury issues had a decent/good season when he played. So who do you suppose is responsible for this drop off in run blocking then??? Just curious.