Improving at LG

[condoin125]

Elliott w/o Cooper @ LG1: 104, 8, 80
Elliott w/ Cooper @ LG1: 80, 85, 116, 147, 150, 93, 97,103

It was a stunt play on his part....we didn't exactly "run behind" him....but if you wanna be a stickler about this one then I would say that we had to run a "trick play" kind of block in order for him to successfully block someone in the run game. How many you got of him straight up overpowering his guy to create a hole? Not to mention, he basically just falls on the guy he blocks in this GIF.....and the guy was already falling down when Cooper fell on him.

Take a look at Frederick's and Martin's blocks....those are the true highlights of this GIF. Collins actually did a good job of picking up the LBer as well.

 

[Denim Chicken]

Continuity for an Oline is an important, no argument. Except I think you're over blowing how badly the LG position was handled; Cooper played 13 games at LG which is the majority of the season. I understand that people may want to ride it out with Collins at RT...at least there's a case to be made for him because he has some talent. Rolling with Cooper for the sake of continuity makes no sense to me though, the guy has been with four different teams in his short career for a reason....he's simply a busted draft pick. New England didn't play him a single game because they knew he couldn't play well. PFF graded him below average on the year and ranked him as the #35 guard. For perspective, they graded Martin as the #2 guard on the season.

PFF just posted an article based on their raw data collecting for offensive line units. It covers each team's yards before contact for their RBs....basically how many yards the team's Oline is generating for the RB before the RB is touched.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/ne...-best-offensive-lines-in-yards-before-contact

If you view the chart you can see that Dallas is all the way down to #13 after being a top five unit last season in this stat. And the sad part about this is that run blocking was the "strength" of our unit in 2017....not pass blocking. Martin and Frederick both had monster seasons in 2017....Tyron Smith even with his injury issues had a decent/good season when he played. So who do you suppose is responsible for this drop off in run blocking then??? Just curious.

I suppose it depends on how much credence you give PFF. If you look at Football Outsiders who collects the same data, Dallas' OLine ranked 4 in Adjusted Line Yards. I also posed Elliot's numbers with and without Cooper at LG. Can't really complain about those numbers.

You can also see that Dallas is ranked #4 when running to the Mid/Guard.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

 

[condoin125]

I suppose it depends on how much credence you give PFF. If you look at Football Outsiders who collects the same data, Dallas' OLine ranked 4 in Adjusted Line Yards. I also posed Elliot's numbers with and without Cooper at LG. Can't really complain about those numbers.

You can also see that Dallas is ranked #4 when running to the Mid/Guard.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

Football outsiders is good but the difference between these two tables if that Football outsiders has developed a formula for their stat....PFF's stat is based only on raw data collecting. I think both stats are good and should be used for separate arguments. PFF's raw data is what it is while the formula from football outsiders has some projection in it. As far as being ranked #4 in Mid/Guard....that doesn't necessarily surprise me considering that we have two of the best in the game at Center and RG....I'd argue if not for Cooper, we'd be ranked #1 there.

 

[condoin125]

Myself, I'd prefer to take one of the top four guards via the draft...and save our cap for another player.

I'm not necessarily against that, but who else is out there in Free Agency that's really worth us pursuing? Maybe I'm missing a few guys but I just don't see too many out there that I'd want to spend heavily on. I chose Pugh because I think he can be an immediate impact player and won't hurt our cap too much. There are probably at least two better Guards that will be available in free agency but they will command heavier contracts.

 

[tm1119]

People seriously are delusional about the o line. It’s like if we don’t have the absolute best, most dominant o line people freak out now.
Collins was by no means bad last year, and was actually a good RT th last 1/3 of the season or so. He absolutely improved as he got more experience. He’s the starting RT going forward, get whatever nonsense of him moving him that you might have out of your head.
Cooper isn’t great, but also wasn’t bad last year. We could absolutely use an upgrade, but I wouldn’t even put LG as a top 5 need on the team (provided Cooper is resigned).

I swear most of the people on this board don’t actually watch the NFL.

 

[Creeper]

The question is never if a player played well or not. The question is can they upgrade at the position and what effect it will have on the team. Cooper is average at LG. Its an area they absolutely improve. IMO, the OL dropped off significantly from 2016. I can't say it was all Cooper or all Collins but it certainly seemed less effective. At the same time, they must solve the problem of getting a swing tackle.

If Will Hernandez drops to 19, should they take him? He would be the next Nate Newton only with a little more nasty to him. I think LG is a bigger problem than right tackle. Collins will improve at RT and be better than Free was his last couple of years. Then, the Cowboys should look for a swing tackle in free agency, in case Smith get hurt again.

 

[condoin125]

People seriously are delusional about the o line. It’s like if we don’t have the absolute best, most dominant o line people freak out now.
Collins was by no means bad last year, and was actually a good RT th last 1/3 of the season or so. He absolutely improved as he got more experience. He’s the starting RT going forward, get whatever nonsense of him moving him that you might have out of your head.
Cooper isn’t great, but also wasn’t bad last year. We could absolutely use an upgrade, but I wouldn’t even put LG as a top 5 need on the team (provided Cooper is resigned).

I swear most of the people on this board don’t actually watch the NFL.

Did you read any of my other posts in this thread, including the one where I posted the raw data from PFF about NFL Olines? Our line clearly took a big step back....so if Collins and Cooper were fine, who was to blame? It can't be both ways people....our line wasn't awful as a unit at all....but they were a far cry from dominant. I know it doesn't have to be the best but if our offensive strength is going to be based on running and keeping the QB clean then it has to be better than it was in 2017.

 

[Denim Chicken]

but they were a far cry from dominant. I know it doesn't have to be the best but if our offensive strength is going to be based on running and keeping the QB clean then it has to be better than it was in 2017.

I wold argue they were dominate in Run Blocking, but took a big step back in pass blocking--largely from injury and substitution.

 

[MiddleStar]

Continuity for an Oline is an important, no argument. Except I think you're over blowing how badly the LG position was handled; Cooper played 13 games at LG which is the majority of the season. I understand that people may want to ride it out with Collins at RT...at least there's a case to be made for him because he has some talent. Rolling with Cooper for the sake of continuity makes no sense to me though, the guy has been with four different teams in his short career for a reason....he's simply a busted draft pick. New England didn't play him a single game because they knew he couldn't play well. PFF graded him below average on the year and ranked him as the #35 guard. For perspective, they graded Martin as the #2 guard on the season.

PFF just posted an article based on their raw data collecting for offensive line units. It covers each team's yards before contact for their RBs....basically how many yards the team's Oline is generating for the RB before the RB is touched.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/ne...-best-offensive-lines-in-yards-before-contact

If you view the chart you can see that Dallas is all the way down to #13 after being a top five unit last season in this stat. And the sad part about this is that run blocking was the "strength" of our unit in 2017....not pass blocking. Martin and Frederick both had monster seasons in 2017....Tyron Smith even with his injury issues had a decent/good season when he played. So who do you suppose is responsible for this drop off in run blocking then??? Just curious.

If you look at the data from this table and sort it out, this is what you get for the Cowboys:
Avg. -13th
Left- 3rd
Middle- 22nd
Right- 22nd

Now consider that we average 13 with 2 scores of 22 shows you how much we ran left (a lot). So even with all of those attempts (and Smith missing games) we still were the 3rd best team in yards before contact running left. I think Cooper did way better than you are giving him credit for. I am all for upgrading the OL and most likely LG but I am NOT going to invest big FA money on a LG. Especially not on someone as BAD as Pugh. We have seen and abused him for years. Quite frankly if I can pay Cooper (if healthy) 1.5-2 million again I will take him 100% of the time over Pugh making anywhere close to 9 million (Leary's average). I would still take Cooper over Pugh even if Pugh was making 2 million.

BTW- The Giants were 26th running left. Screw Pugh.

What we need on the OL is depth, specifically a backup T that can play LT. I am all for drafting a LG but if we can sign Cooper or someone similar for his salary, that pick can be later in the draft and can be given time. As someone else posted, I am also interested in seeing if Edwards can do anything next year, I liked what little I saw of him in pre-season.

Speaking of pre-season, the coaches screwed Cooper in pre-season. The switching of Green to G was a joke- he was never comfortable there. Cooper clearly out played him in PS yet the coaches continued to try and fit the square peg into the round hole. Should have just let Cooper and Green play their natural positions.

And if you are using this table as a basis for your reasons to upgrade the OL, then you better not re-sign Martin and need to ask Frederick for a refund.

 

[Aven8]

2014 and 2016 we had Ron Leary in the lineup.. Just saying..

It was also not a coincidence that when Collins got hurt in 2016, and Leary got his job back that we started to roll.

 

[tm1119]

Did you read any of my other posts in this thread, including the one where I posted the raw data from PFF about NFL Olines? Our line clearly took a big step back....so if Collins and Cooper were fine, who was to blame? It can't be both ways people....our line wasn't awful as a unit at all....but they were a far cry from dominant. I know it doesn't have to be the best but if our offensive strength is going to be based on running and keeping the QB clean then it has to be better than it was in 2017.

PFF grades mean less than nothing to me.

And if you didn’t notice the ENTIRE offense took a big step back, not just the o line. It makes it a lot harder to block when the other team knows more or less what play you are running. And the WR’s/TE’s not getting open/poor play design is automatically going to make the pressure #’s worse in pass pro. I’d have to do more reasearch but I’d be interested in seeing the average time it took Dak to release the ball in 2016 vs 2017.

The o line wasn’t perfect and it wouldn’t be the worst idea to upgrade LG if feasible...BUT the o line wasn’t/isn’t the problem with the Cowboys.

 

[condoin125]

PFF grades mean less than nothing to me.

And if you didn’t notice the ENTIRE offense took a big step back, not just the o line. It makes it a lot harder to block when the other team knows more or less what play you are running. And the WR’s/TE’s not getting open/poor play design is automatically going to make the pressure #’s worse in pass pro. I’d have to do more reasearch but I’d be interested in seeing the average time it took Dak to release the ball in 2016 vs 2017.

The o line wasn’t perfect and it wouldn’t be the worst idea to upgrade LG if feasible...BUT the o line wasn’t/isn’t the problem with the Cowboys.

As I said, the link to PFF was their raw data, not grades. If you're going to doubt their stat collection then I suggest you start doing the same with every site that captures any stat, not just ones you're biased against.

 

[condoin125]

If you look at the data from this table and sort it out, this is what you get for the Cowboys:
Avg. -13th
Left- 3rd
Middle- 22nd
Right- 22nd

Now consider that we average 13 with 2 scores of 22 shows you how much we ran left (a lot). So even with all of those attempts (and Smith missing games) we still were the 3rd best team in yards before contact running left. I think Cooper did way better than you are giving him credit for. I am all for upgrading the OL and most likely LG but I am NOT going to invest big FA money on a LG. Especially not on someone as BAD as Pugh. We have seen and abused him for years. Quite frankly if I can pay Cooper (if healthy) 1.5-2 million again I will take him 100% of the time over Pugh making anywhere close to 9 million (Leary's average). I would still take Cooper over Pugh even if Pugh was making 2 million.

BTW- The Giants were 26th running left. Screw Pugh.

What we need on the OL is depth, specifically a backup T that can play LT. I am all for drafting a LG but if we can sign Cooper or someone similar for his salary, that pick can be later in the draft and can be given time. As someone else posted, I am also interested in seeing if Edwards can do anything next year, I liked what little I saw of him in pre-season.

Speaking of pre-season, the coaches screwed Cooper in pre-season. The switching of Green to G was a joke- he was never comfortable there. Cooper clearly out played him in PS yet the coaches continued to try and fit the square peg into the round hole. Should have just let Cooper and Green play their natural positions.

And if you are using this table as a basis for your reasons to upgrade the OL, then you better not re-sign Martin and need to ask Frederick for a refund.

I don't have to worry about Martin or Frederick because they are amongst the very best at their positions...there's really no argument against that. The problem with PFF's table is that the directions don't break down exactly what they mean individually. Does Left refer to left tackle and left guard? Or just the tackle? Just the tackle would make sense, because during the games Tyron was playing he was still one of the best run blockers in the league, even if his pass blocking wasn't quite as dominant this past season. It would also explain why our Right number is so low, because Collins was not a good run blocker from the RT position in 2017. But again, that isn't specified here so it's hard to say for sure what the directions listed are referring to.

 

[Denim Chicken]

As I said, the link to PFF was their raw data, not grades. If you're going to doubt their stat collection then I suggest you start doing the same with every site that captures any stat, not just ones you're biased against.

Yards before contract isn't totally dependent on the Oline, though. If and RB is more elusive he can effect this stat significantly. I would argue that the loss of Elliot for 6 games may had a significant impact on the ranking compared to last year where he started every game.

 

[condoin125]

Yards before contract isn't totally dependent on the Oline, though. If and RB is more elusive he can effect this stat significantly. I would argue that the loss of Elliot for 6 games may had a significant impact on the ranking compared to last year where he started every game.

This is a true statement but let's be real, the RB ultimately shouldn't have a HUGE effect on these numbers because if an Oline is letting people into the backfield on designed run plays often then it's simply not doing its job. I would argue that Zeke not being there and hiding that fact is a more true statement of play than Zeke being there and making it look better than it is.

 

[Denim Chicken]

This is a true statement but let's be real, the RB ultimately shouldn't have a HUGE effect on these numbers because if an Oline is letting people into the backfield on designed run plays often then it's simply not doing its job. I would argue that Zeke not being there and hiding that fact is a more true statement of play than Zeke being there and making it look better than it is.

Maybe, but the fact remains that we were #2 in the league in rushing with our #1 RB missing more than a quarter of the season. I really don't believe that our run blocking is an issue.

 

[jterrell]

Cooper was very solid and a huge upgrade over Chaz Green at LG.
If you can sign him for cheap you do so.
But he's not an ideal long term solution so you'd like to draft a LG.

The weak link last year was Chaz Green wherever he played.
It confounded coaches and everyone because he looked good in practice and he has the physical tools.
Once Bell was in at LT Cooper and Bell weren't a good combo obviously, but they weren't embarrassing.

 

[condoin125]

Maybe, but the fact remains that we were #2 in the league in rushing with our #1 RB missing more than a quarter of the season. I really don't believe that our run blocking is an issue.

I think it's an issue....it's certainly not THE issue...and it's probably not even in our top 3 issues but I think we could be leaps and bounds better with it by simply upgrading the LG position.

 

[condoin125]

Cooper was very solid and a huge upgrade over Chaz Green at LG.
If you can sign him for cheap you do so.
But he's not an ideal long term solution so you'd like to draft a LG.

The weak link last year was Chaz Green wherever he played.
It confounded coaches and everyone because he looked good in practice and he has the physical tools.
Once Bell was in at LT Cooper and Bell weren't a good combo obviously, but they weren't embarrassing.

So Chaz Green by himself was the reason for the step back in OL play? He single-handedly did that?

 

[Whyjerry]

You've got to be kidding, Cooper over Pugh every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Exactly. Why are we will to forget about Cooper? He was solid this season. They should lock he up for another 2 years. He continues to improve and he will get a nice deal at 30 to end his career. Resigning Cooper should be a priority.