Interesting link discussing Jim Bates's defensive philosophy

kmd24

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I have been doing a little research to see what matchups will be important on Sunday, and I turned up an interesting link about Jim Bates's defense.

Among the more interesting points:
Contain is a system that is based on the idea of "vectoring" an opposing player into an area of the defense's choosing. The OLBs are responsible for herding running plays to the center of the field, where the MLB makes the tackles. It's a pretty complex concept, but one that is deadly when performed well.

The theory behind the system goes like this. No runner is allowed to go out of bounds. This means that he can only take a finite number of approaches towards the endzone. In zone or man coverages, we take chances with one-on-one tackles, but what if we could change the dynamics so that the lane the opposing player takes always leads towards the center of the field? In other words, back towards ten other defensive players?

The DTs must be big, and able to hold the center of the line (not penetrate). Because the opposition will be forced to run the center as the game goes on, the DTs are critical for stopping the run. They are also responsible for protecting the MLB, who will take out any runners being vectored from the edges. For this reason, the DTs ignore most pass situations and simply hold the center.

The OLBs have the strangest job. It involves not tackling an opposing player unless that player takes a cut back towards the center of the field. This means that the OLB must run alongside the runner as the runner heads towards a sideline to keep him from reaching the edge and tearing down the field along that sideline. When the runner realizes he can't get past the defender, he'll have to cut back. When he does so, he faces the other ten defenders (heading towards him) as well as the "container", who is now allowed to make the tackle.

System Disadvantages:
# If the runner beats the defender to the sideline and turns upfield, it's a bad, bad day. (Again we didn’t have this issue until the fourth quarter of the season from Carolina on).
# Requires the DTs to be above average 2 gappers, big, and patient. (They’re patient, almost too patient. They also lack size… We have to upgrade the d-line).
# Requires the OLBs to be fast, but also very intelligent and patient. (We have this in Derrick Brooks and Cato June, Brooks is on the downside, but teams would still kill to have his production. Quincy Black/Geno Hayes possess speed as back-ups as well).
# Sacrifices the thought of using the DTs in a pass rush. (We already do this, so nothing would change despite the obvious disadvantages).

I'll be interested to see if Felix Jones can get outside on the defense. Also, I think Hovan and Sims could be in for a long day if their primary job is to hold their ground against Bigg and Gurode.
 

Chocolate Lab

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Good thread.

Honestly, we should tear this defense apart. I didn't know they were starting Ryan Sims... Wow. And like you say, Hovan is too small to be that big space eating DT. This system is so different from what they ran before, they don't have the personnel in place yet. Not to mention that Bates just isn't that good. There's a reason he's been run out of the last few jobs he's had.

I'm sure they'll be fired up and will have a lot of emotion playing at home, but when that wears off we should steadily move the ball.
 

WoodysGirl

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Chocolate Lab;2930895 said:
Good thread.

Honestly, we should tear this defense apart. I didn't know they were starting Ryan Sims... Wow. And like you say, Hovan is too small to be that big space eating DT. This system is so different from what they ran before, they don't have the personnel in place yet. Not to mention that Bates just isn't that good. There's a reason he's been run out of the last few jobs he's had.

I'm sure they'll be fired up and will have a lot of emotion playing at home, but when that wears off we should steadily move the ball.
I don't know that that's because he sucks. I've read that he's had to leave simply because he's been the HC candidate for his past few jobs and was skipped over to hire someone else. Of course the new guy is going to bring in his own guy.

I've always read how respected he is as a defensive guy.
 

Chocolate Lab

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WoodysGirl;2930907 said:
I don't know that that's because he sucks. I've read that he's had to leave simply because he's been the HC candidate for his past few jobs and was skipped over to hire someone else. Of course the new guy is going to bring in his own guy.

I've always read how respected he is as a defensive guy.

I'm not saying he sucks. Just that he's a JAG.

And I think it's been a while since he's been a true HC candidate. The guy has been around for a long time now.
 

Idgit

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Great thread. Who's MLB in Tampa this year?
 

Alexander

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Chocolate Lab;2930918 said:
I'm not saying he sucks. Just that he's a JAG.

And I think it's been a while since he's been a true HC candidate. The guy has been around for a long time now.

He is a lot like many defensive coordinators. He can run his scheme and be fairly successful at it until the novelty wears off. Above all else, his scheme is more dependent on who is actually playing in it.

Some systems "work" even with overachievers as long as they can carry out the responsibilities. His system needs outstanding athletes and smart ones, especially at linebacker. He's got the middle linebacker in Tampa as Ruud is excellent. Gaines Adams fits the prototype he needs from his ends. The outside linebackers (who tend to be short and fast) and the interior linemen? Not so much. What is funny is that Brooks would have been ideal for the system, so would Cato June. Neither are around anymore.

He got a good reputation for his work in Miami and also Green Bay, but he's also bombed miserably in Denver and Atlanta. I see Tampa being much like those two.
 

ArmyCowboy

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If you have the right personnel, just about any scheme would work, to be honest.

Personally, I prefer the more attacking type schemes to the read and react types that bates scheme falls under.
 

viman96

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kmd24;2930874 said:
The OLBs are responsible for herding running plays to the center of the field, where the MLB makes the tackles. It's a pretty complex concept, but one that is deadly when performed well.

Everyone knows it is not possible to herd cats. So Felix "The Cat" Jones should be able to get the outside and turn it up field. And good luck to their D trying to direct Barber in any direction he does not want to go.
 

BAT

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Alexander;2931031 said:
Barrett Ruud.

One of the best albeit underrated MLBs in the NFC imo, even last season, the middle of the Tampa D was their strength. If the Cowboys can tear up the edges of that D, it will unravel very quickly.
 
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