It's a Let's trade Dez Thread

[ufcrules1]

Look at the Carr mess we are in. Lucky for us we don't do business that way anymore.

Yes, and there were plenty of others before Carr. Our team has sucked for a long time because of those type of decisions. Glad they are starting to change their ways.

 

[Nightman]

So basically 17 mill a year when those 2nd and 3rd year numbers rise. 17 mill a year in the least cap friendly manner possible. Also, I'm pretty sure those deals are guaranteed on signing.

I was talking hypothetically against Hoof's suggestion of a longterm extension with large cap hits.

I would rather take the 0m guaranteed money vs huge guaranteed money AND large cap hits.

And everyone's deal is guaranteed once the year starts, so Franchise tags aren't much different since most players don't sign them until after the preseason.

 

[Hoofbite]

I like Hoof's idea of a third year option bonus, but the main benefit a team gets from a long term deal is salary cap relief early in the deal. If they are going to take cap hits of 13m they should just go the Franchise Tag route.

I think most players have become wise to discounts early in the contract. It just makes all the other years higher and creates situations where a lot of money is never paid. It used to be that contracts would start well below the average and gradually rise to a number well above average by the time the player was in the final year of the deal. That's not really the case any more. I've seen far more contracts where the numbers graphed would look more like a parabola with low amounts in the beginning and end, and peak cap charges in the middle. Others will take a low first year and then basically jump in year 2 to a figure that hardly moves for the remainder of the deal.

Realistically, there's not much they would even be able to do with any amount of money they saved with a new deal. They could roll it over, but it's not like you're gonna get a lot out of the free agent pool right now.

They can control his rights for 3 more years and not have to guarantee a dollar. His cap hits would be 12.8m, 15.4m and 22.1m

They guarantee each year's amount the moment he signs it. More importantly, that money is basically tied up whether or not he has signed the contract so they don't have any additional flexibility to acquire players they otherwise couldn't have with a typical contract and guaranteed money.

 

[NEODOG]

I don't really think it's collusion. There's not really a concerted and unified effort to make WR contracts come down, there's just absolutely zero interest from anyone in paying such a high rate. The WR market has already come down, IMO. Calvin and Fitzgerald are the only two players who have ever received such a crazy amount. I think Calvin is going to be let go next year if he doesn't take a pay cut, and Fitzgerald just took a pay cut. Fitz was averaging $16M/year, and under his old contract it looks like he would have made $19M this year and $15M next year. After re-working his deal he will make $22M over the next 2 years, and then his contract voids.

Over 2015 and 2016 he lost $12M, and the 7th and final year of his original contract will not be paid. That's another $15M. Out of that 7-year deal that was worth $113M, Larry will actually get about $86M. He does get out a year sooner but he'll be 34-years-old when the season starts in 2017. Larry will actually earn $14M/year, and then he'll either retire or play for some other team for a much lesser amount than that average.

If Calvin is cut he'd lose $49M, which would make his average earnings $14M/year as well.

None of these WRs are ever going to get a "true" $16M/year contract. When I say "true", I mean a contract that they have a high probability of playing out. The problem with such contracts is that the salary cap charges in the later years are far higher than an aged player can justify.

The answer to the Dez issue seems pretty obvious, IMO. Dez wants guarantees, and Dallas wants an out just in case. So put a large option bonus in year 3.

7 years, $94M. ($13.4M/year) $5M SB, and a $15M option bonus in year 3.

2015: $12M Base (100% Guaranteed) + $1M SB = $13M Cap Charge
2016: $12M Base (100% Guaranteed) + $1M SB = $13M Cap Charge​

($15M Option Bonus Prorated Over 5 Years)​

2017: $8M Base + $1M SB + $3M OB = $12M Cap Charge
2018: $9M Base + $1M SB + $3M OB = $13M Cap Charge [DEAD: $14M]
2019: $10M Base (50% Guaranteed if on Roster on Day 1 of 2018 League Year) + $1M SB + $3M OB = $14M Cap Charge [DEAD: $15M]
2020: $11M Base (50% Guaranteed if on Roster on Day 1 of 2019 League Year) + $3M OB = $14M Cap Charge [DEAD: $11.5M]
2021: $12M Base + $3M OB = $15M Cap Charge [DEAD: $3M]​

Seems like a win for both sides.

• Cap charges for 2015 & 2016 are lower than franchise tagging him for 2 years ($26M vs $28M)
• Dez earns more for 2015 & 2016 than he would by playing under the franchise tag ($29M vs $28M)
• Dallas has an out after year 2 if they need it.
• If Dallas doesn't need that out, Dez earns $52M in the first 3 seasons. I'm pretty sure this is very close to what Calvin earned in his 1st three seasons.
• If Dez makes it to year 4, he guarantees another $5M in the form of his 5th year base salary.
• If Dez makes it to year 5, he guarantees another $5.5M in the form of his 6th year base salary.
• His amount of dead money if cut prior to each season yields little-to-no cap relief until the final year, which increases the likelihood of retaining his roster spot.
• His cap charge is never significantly higher than what it currently is. Fitzgerald's cap charge for this year would have been $23M had he not restructured. Calvin's cap charge for next year will be $24M and I doubt the Lions are going sit back and go with it. If that team wasn't so stupid to begin with I would say it's guaranteed he restructures like Larry did and loses money in the process, or he's flat out cut and has to try to get a new contract at the age of 30.

He's not going to get $17M/year and actually earn all that money, and that's assuming he could even get that sort of contract in the first place. Calvin and Larry got the $16M/year deals but they're not going to play out that initial deal. Larry's is already gone. Calvin's is almost assuredly next.

Hey Dez & SJ ^^^^here's your sign

 

[Nightman]

I think most players have become wise to discounts early in the contract. It just makes all the other years higher and creates situations where a lot of money is never paid. It used to be that contracts would start well below the average and gradually rise to a number well above average by the time the player was in the final year of the deal. That's not really the case any more. I've seen far more contracts where the numbers graphed would look more like a parabola with low amounts in the beginning and end, and peak cap charges in the middle. Others will take a low first year and then basically jump in year 2 to a figure that hardly moves for the remainder of the deal.

Realistically, there's not much they would even be able to do with any amount of money they saved with a new deal. They could roll it over, but it's not like you're gonna get a lot out of the free agent pool right now.



They guarantee each year's amount the moment he signs it. More importantly, that money is basically tied up whether or not he has signed the contract so they don't have any additional flexibility to acquire players they otherwise couldn't have with a typical contract and guaranteed money.

That is still covered by the large signing bonus. If Dallas gives Dez a 20m signing bonus and 6m in base salary over the first 2 years that is still 13m a year. Add that 15m option bonus in year 3 and another 11m in salary for years 3-4 and its still 13m per.

His cap numbers would be 6m, 8m, 12m, 13m with 13m in dead money. He would've made 52m over 4 years with a good chance to keep making 10-13m a year for 3-4 more years.

 

[cajuncocoa]

OK. Just got here today and this is the first thread I see. I see it's already 6 pages. I'm just going to cut to the chase.

 

[JoeKing]

How do you trade someone you don't even have under contract? How did this thread last 6 pages? Training camp can't get here quick enough... we better topics to talk about.

 

[Nightman]

How do you trade someone you don't even have under contract? How did this thread last 6 pages? Training camp can't get here quick enough... we better topics to talk about.

Some team signs him to an offer sheet, we don't match, we get 2 1sts.

That's how you trade someone before July 15th on the Franchise Tag.

 

[Hoofbite]

That is still covered by the large signing bonus. If Dallas gives Dez a 20m signing bonus and 6m in base salary over the first 2 years that is still 13m a year. Add that 15m option bonus in year 3 and another 11m in salary for years 3-4 and its still 13m per.

His cap numbers would be 6m, 8m, 12m, 13m with 13m in dead money. He would've made 52m over 4 years with a good chance to keep making 10-13m a year for 3-4 more years.

$20M in signing bonus would prorate $4M onto each of the first 5 years. Add the option in year 3 and he'd have $7M in prorated money for years 3, 4 and, 5.

For years 3 and 4, his cap charge would be $18M after you add in an $11M base salary. In year 5, it would be $17M-$20M depending on which end of that $10M-$13M scale you've chosen.

As I said, if you take low cap charges early in the contract you have to take large cap charges on the back end.

 

[JoeKing]

Some team signs him to an offer sheet, we don't match, we get 2 1sts.

That's how you trade someone before July 15th on the Franchise Tag.

How would "some other team" do that without being guilty of collusion?

 

[WoodysGirl]

The worm has officially turned..

 

[AbeBeta]

I was talking hypothetically against Hoof's suggestion of a longterm extension with large cap hits.

I would rather take the 0m guaranteed money vs huge guaranteed money AND large cap hits.

And everyone's deal is guaranteed once the year starts, so Franchise tags aren't much different since most players don't sign them until after the preseason.

But a long term extension is going to have SMALLER cap hits per year as it can be spread out way into the future

 

[AbeBeta]

$20M in signing bonus would prorate $4M onto each of the first 5 years. Add the option in year 3 and he'd have $7M in prorated money for years 3, 4 and, 5.

For years 3 and 4, his cap charge would be $18M after you add in an $11M base salary. In year 5, it would be $17M-$20M depending on which end of that $10M-$13M scale you've chosen.

As I said, if you take low cap charges early in the contract you have to take large cap charges on the back end.

But as we know, the back end of any big deal is bogus anyway. We can easily move the cap space around with various extensions or simple conversion of salary to bonus. Yes, you end up with a cap hit after the player is gone. But that's well worth the added space you get when you do have the player. Plus you are pushing money forward to years when there will be a larger cap, proportionally you end up burning a smaller bit of the cap by pushing it to the later years.

 

[Nightman]

$20M in signing bonus would prorate $4M onto each of the first 5 years. Add the option in year 3 and he'd have $7M in prorated money for years 3, 4 and, 5.

For years 3 and 4, his cap charge would be $18M after you add in an $11M base salary. In year 5, it would be $17M-$20M depending on which end of that $10M-$13M scale you've chosen.

As I said, if you take low cap charges early in the contract you have to take large cap charges on the back end.

the 11m would be the total for years 3-4, not 11m per year.


7/91m...........20m signing bonus.............41m guaranteed(15m bonus not guaranteed until March 2017)

......................Base............Pro-rate.............Cap Hit
2015..............2m................4m.........................6m
2016..............4m................4m.........................8m
2017(15m)....5m................7m........................12m
2018...............6m................7m........................13m
2019..............10m..............7m.........................17m
2020..............13m...............3m........................13m
2021..............16m...............3m........................13m

 

[Nightman]

How would "some other team" do that without being guilty of collusion?

It is called the "non-exclusive Franchise Tag". Every team can talk to Dez right now, up until July 15th.

If they make a deal and Dallas doesn't match, Dallas get two 1st rounds picks in exchange.

 

[Macnalty]

And a mighty swing and a miss.

Dallas thought they had an agreement w/ Dez's agent. He wasn't happy and fired the agent. Explain again how this is Jones' fault????

I am not sure that was what happened are you sure this is the scenario for the deal not happening? Dez stepped out of the deal that his agent agreed upon?

 

[JoeKing]

It is called the "non-exclusive Franchise Tag". Every team can talk to Dez right now, up until July 15th.

If they make a deal and Dallas doesn't match, Dallas get two 1st rounds picks in exchange.

Say what? I'm not saying you are wrong but has that ever happened before? I actually do appreciate you answering my questions that must seem dumb to those already in the know about such things. Thanks.

 

[Jerryrage]

No Superbowl if you trade Dez. Dude is clutch.

 

[Nightman]

Say what? I'm not saying you are wrong but has that ever happened before? I actually do appreciate you answering my questions that must seem dumb to those already in the know about such things. Thanks.

Pretty certain that Steve Hutchinson-C SEA was taken by MINN this way and Jared Allen-DE KC was also taken by MINN this way.

 

[conner01]

You pay elite players. This isn't about giving a productive #2 s giant deal. It is about paying one of the best WR in the game top dollar.

As to being "cap hostages," do you really think 17 mill vs say 14 mill a year creates a hostage situation? That 3 mill difference is chump change in the face of the overall (and constantly rising) cap.

Oh yeah - your replacement plan stinks too. We'd be awful.

It's a bit more complicated than just 3 mil a year
If he would sign right now for 17 mil a year they might just sign him
But he wouldn't
It's about the bonus money and the time it impacts your cap
Signing him to a crazy deal just means in 3 years or so you have to cut him and then that 3 mil a year turns into several million hitting your cap all at once
If dez wants to be the highest paid WR on the nfl he is not going to get signed
He will either play under the tag or not play
If he wants a long term deal with security he is going to have to get more realistic
There is a reason several top wr's have been tagged
Teams see that paying a WR, any WR a contract close to QB money hurts your team more than it helps them
Look at the lions, they just let one of the best DT walk and I bet if they were not so indedted with CJ they would have kept him
I want to keep dez, I want to pay him good money but I'm not willing to let a guy like Martin walk in a few years because we signed dez