James Hanna vs Gavin Escobar?

[Deep_South]

I think Escobar will help in the red zone not only by catching the ball himself, but maybe taking some heat off of other receivers. That said, a good OL makes everyone in the offense more effective in the red zone. Instead of going for a solution to the problem by going for big improvement on the OL, we decided to maybe make things a little bit better. "A little bit better" won't get us to the Super Bowl, and my heart goes out to all of the older Cowboys fans who are going to die of old age without having seen the Cowboys make a run deep in the playoffs since long before they were eligible for Social Security.

Of course, I hope I'm wrong about that. I do try to be optimistic, and will be by training camp, but every year the fans are right about what Jerry is doing wrong, and that needs to change. There is no reason a bunch of guys and gals sitting home on their couches can see more about what the team really needs than the Cowboys' GM.

:starspin :starspin :starspin

 

[TheRomoSexual]

Pretty simple, I see 1 OL taken after Fred (until 67th oversll) and see he's an OT and I speculate.

Just like everyone else really. Observe X and speculate Y.

Didnt realize this was the thread where we only speculate in ways that justify the actual outcomes.

Since we're speculating, care to speculate the average draft position of the top rated center over the last 10 drafts? Because I know the answer -- 35.

 

[TheRomoSexual]

I see. So you talked about one TE just not the other. Because you didn't expect him to be a Cowboy. They might take this good TE but not this good TE.

Reports came out possibly linking Eifert and the Cowboys. I never saw such a report about Escobar or I would have analyzed the prospect.

Besides, you're missing the point. You seem to assume that because I like Gavin that I did NOT like Warford. Quite the opposite. But I'm not going to throw a hissy fit as long as I feel the Cowboys got good value with their pick. And they did.

 

[Deep_Freeze]

Don't know the issue. This is what I believed pre-draft. I didn't roll out of bed that Saturday and decide Larry Warford was a better player than Gavin Escobar or that the OL was a huge critical need holding this team back.

Their prior history has to matter. You give the benefit of the doubt to the Ravens. You don't with the Cowboys.

I only give them the benefit of the doubt cause of the most recent drafts, from 2010 on have been alot better. From 07-09, they stank, but I have moved on from that now.

They haven't done enough to totally forget prior history cause the on the field results are lacking, but you also have to see that things have gotten a bit better draftwise.

 

[jobberone]

Note to self, Bill Callahan is the be all, end all OL talent evaluator.

Better make that note to everyone as well as yourself because he knows more than anyone here. Perhaps there are better evaluators and coaches at the NFL level but not on this board.

They didn't take another one because they are evaluating the guys we already have.

Your assumption appears to be we have no legitimate OL except Smith so we need to get people in there now. They seem to want to look at what they have before bringing in more competition. Most rookie OL need time to develop and many take a year or more. To expect 2-3 rookie OL to come in and help now is not realistic. And if they had drafted another OL or two then they would have to give up on 1-2 players they have invested time and money on already.

 

[speedkilz88]

Pretty simple, I see 1 OL taken after Fred (until 67th oversll) and see he's an OT and I speculate.

Just like everyone else really. Observe X and speculate Y.

Didnt realize this was the thread where we only speculate in ways that justify the actual outcomes.

There was one OT (Menelik Watson taken at 42) between the Frederick pick and the Cowboys 2nd pick.

 

[Hoofbite]

There was one OT (Menelik Watson taken at 42) between the Frederick pick and the Cowboys 2nd pick.

This is true.

 

[xwalker]

If the Cowboys made a mistake this year with regards to the OLine, it is probably in the area of Free Agency, but not in the draft. Most of the OLineman drafted after Frederick appear to have a fairly low probability of starting immediately. The Cowboys need 2013 game 1 starters. They already have a lot of developmental type guys.

 

[Hoofbite]

Since we're speculating, care to speculate the average draft position of the top rated center over the last 10 drafts? Because I know the answer -- 35.

So what?

What's the average for the top OG compared to this year? Take the 2nd rated OG if you like.

What's the average for the top rated RB compare to where the first RB went this year?

Doesn't mean anything. Comparing different years with different players.

This is rationalization of the most ridiculous kind.

 

[TheRomoSexual]

So what?

What's the average for the top OG compared to this year? Take the 2nd rated OG if you like.

What's the average for the top rated RB compare to where the first RB went this year?

Doesn't mean anything. Comparing different years with different players.

This is rationalization of the most ridiculous kind.

So, your point is, since this is was a offensive lineman heavy draft, that shows Frederick would likely be there at 47? Yeah, not really seeing your point. You are just trying to passively bash without substantive points.

 

[Hoofbite]

So, your point is, since this is was a offensive lineman heavy draft, that shows Frederick would likely be there at 47? Yeah, not really seeing your point. You are just trying to passively bash without substantive points.

My point was that you can't validate the TE pick by paying attention to the lack of OL picks without casting reasonable doubt as to whether or not the first pick was justified.

You can't defend the team for not taking an OL by citing what other teams did while at the same time saying time concluding that Frederick would have been gone by ignoring what other teams did.

 

[Deep_Freeze]

If the Cowboys made a mistake this year with regards to the OLine, it is probably in the area of Free Agency, but not in the draft. Most of the OLineman drafted after Frederick appear to have a fairly low probability of starting immediately. The Cowboys need 2013 game 1 starters. They already have a lot of developmental type guys.

Yeah, any holes should be filled in free agency, not the draft. The draft is for talent acquisition, not filling needs.

I totally agree that if you want to be pissed at the FO, be mad we don't have Moore or Clabo, not about the draft.

 

[Risen Star]

My point was that you can't validate the TE pick by paying attention to the lack of OL picks without casting reasonable doubt as to whether or not the first pick was justified.

You can't defend the team for not taking an OL by citing what other teams did while at the same time saying time concluding that Frederick would have been gone by ignoring what other teams did.

Sure you can. If you're auditioning for the team PR department.

 

[Risen Star]

If the Cowboys made a mistake this year with regards to the OLine, it is probably in the area of Free Agency, but not in the draft. Most of the OLineman drafted after Frederick appear to have a fairly low probability of starting immediately. The Cowboys need 2013 game 1 starters. They already have a lot of developmental type guys.

Why would I care if they start immediately? Even if that's true, what kind of backwards thinking is that? It's because of that mindset that your cupboard's bare. What we need is talent in the pipeline. That's what the NFL Draft is all about. You acquire talent. The start immediately crowd is really saying reach for need.

It makes even less sense when defending the Escobar pick. He's a role player on this team at least until Witten is gone. The 12 personnel won't be on the field all the time. An OG or OT has a much better chance to start on this team right now. The TE has to compete with Witten. The OG or OT has to compete with Livings, Bernadeau, Free and Parnell. Ya know, that's murderer's row of OL talent.

 

[Risen Star]

Reports came out possibly linking Eifert and the Cowboys. I never saw such a report about Escobar or I would have analyzed the prospect.

Besides, you're missing the point. You seem to assume that because I like Gavin that I did NOT like Warford. Quite the opposite. But I'm not going to throw a hissy fit as long as I feel the Cowboys got good value with their pick. And they did.

Actually, I don't assume you like Escobar. Or at least you didn't until the moment the Cowboys drafted him. I'm merely pointing out you thought so much of him that you commented zero times about his potential until we drafted him. He wasn't in any mock, any random thought of potential picks. Nothing.

You keep a secret well.

My "hissy fit" is merely commenting on why I think they made yet another mistake and why they won't win this year because of it.

 

[xwalker]

Why would I care if they start immediately? Even if that's true, what kind of backwards thinking is that? It's because of that mindset that your cupboard's bare. What we need is talent in the pipeline. That's what the NFL Draft is all about. You acquire talent. The start immediately crowd is really saying reach for need.

It makes even less sense when defending the Escobar pick. He's a role player on this team at least until Witten is gone. The 12 personnel won't be on the field all the time. An OG or OT has a much better chance to start on this team right now. The TE has to compete with Witten. The OG or OT has to compete with Livings, Bernadeau, Free and Parnell. Ya know, that's murderer's row of OL talent.

My point is that they went BPA after the Frederick pick. If there had been a potential game-1 starting OLineman near the Escobar pick, then I might be upset that they didn't pick him; otherwise, I prefer the BPA route.

It's seems that you're saying that they should have taken more OLinemen but they also shouldn't reach for need. The way that the draft unfolded, they couldn't do both.

 

[Risen Star]

My point is that they went BPA after the Frederick pick. If there had been a potential game-1 starting OLineman near the Escobar pick, then I might be upset that they didn't pick him; otherwise, I prefer the BPA route.

It's seems that you're saying that they should have taken more OLinemen but they also shouldn't reach for need. The way that the draft unfolded, they couldn't do both.

I didn't realize the Dallas Cowboys draft board was so accurate.

What I'm saying is there were better players along the OL than Escobar was at TE and this team continues to make mistakes evaluating the talent at that position.

To use their draft board as a defense when their draft board has gotten us the worst OL in the league seems like a real stretch to me. I have no doubt Escobar was their BPA. And I have less doubt that they're wrong.

 

[fishspill]

Hanna earns his checks between the 20s. Escobar will prove or disprove his value from the 20 to the goal line. If Escobar isn't scoring or setting up touchdowns he was a wasted pick. If the Cowboys are winning no one will care.

 

[xwalker]

I didn't realize the Dallas Cowboys draft board was so accurate.

What I'm saying is there were better players along the OL than Escobar was at TE and this team continues to make mistakes evaluating the talent at that position.

To use their draft board as a defense when their draft board has gotten us the worst OL in the league seems like a real stretch to me. I have no doubt Escobar was their BPA. And I have less doubt that they're wrong.

I agree that their past draft boards seem a bit off in regards to OLinemen. If Jerry didn't override the scouts on the Frederick trade/pick, then they probably wouldn't have taken an OLineman at all this year.

I'm beginning to wonder about the Cowboys scouts. It appears that the scouts own the draft board and override the coaches input. If the reports are correct, then the draft board had Floyd in the top 10, yet Marinelli/Kiffin didn't think much of the player.

The thing I like the most about the Frederick pick is that Callahan spent time personally working him out prior to the draft.

 

[TheRomoSexual]

What I'm saying is there were better players along the OL than Escobar was at TE and this team continues to make mistakes evaluating the talent at that position.

To use their draft board as a defense when their draft board has gotten us the worst OL in the league seems like a real stretch to me. I have no doubt Escobar was their BPA. And I have less doubt that they're wrong.

None of this makes any sense. Better players along the OL than at TE? There's absolutely no way to evaluate that kind of nonsense. And I can almost guarantee Escobar would have gone well before Warford had we passed on both.