James Hanna vs Gavin Escobar?

[Risen Star]

I agree that their past draft boards seem a bit off in regards to OLinemen. If Jerry didn't override the scouts on the Frederick trade/pick, then they probably wouldn't have taken an OLineman at all this year.

I'm beginning to wonder about the Cowboys scouts. It appears that the scouts own the draft board and override the coaches input. If the reports are correct, then the draft board had Floyd in the top 10, yet Marinelli/Kiffin didn't think much of the player.

The thing I like the most about the Frederick pick is that Callahan spent time personally working him out prior to the draft.

I agree with all that except for the last sentence. I don't care about Callahan's input. I'm much more concerned with the scouts' opinions. These are the guys getting paid to evaluate these players year round. Callahan's a coach.

Either we're overruling the scouts or we need new scouts.

 

[Risen Star]

None of this makes any sense. Better players along the OL than at TE? There's absolutely no way to evaluate that kind of nonsense. And I can almost guarantee Escobar would have gone well before Warford had we passed on both.

It's called an opinion. It's mine that there were several OL still on the board who were better pro prospects than Gavin Escobar. A player you never mentioned before the draft.

You can tsk tsk that opinion but it's been far more right over the years than the decisions makers at Valley Ranch.

 

[snapper]

I agree with all that except for the last sentence. I don't care about Callahan's input. I'm much more concerned with the scouts' opinions. These are the guys getting paid to evaluate these players year round. Callahan's a coach.

Either we're overruling the scouts or we need new scouts.[/QUOTE]

Based on general opinion from the media, I'd say it was the former. It's always been implied that Jerry listens to the coaches during the draft rather than the scouts but who really knows.

 

[xwalker]

I agree with all that except for the last sentence. I don't care about Callahan's input. I'm much more concerned with the scouts' opinions. These are the guys getting paid to evaluate these players year round. Callahan's a coach.

Either we're overruling the scouts or we need new scouts.

I see the scouts job differently. IMO, their job is to evaluate the hundreds of players that are eligible for the draft. This is a job that is obviously too large for the coaches. Once a position coach has been able to personally evaluate a player, then his opinion should be very significant. This would be true if the coach had just spent significant time evaluating the prospect on film and even more if the coach was able to personally work out the player.

I would want players that both the scouts and position coaches like over players that only the scouts or coaches like. It appears that both the position coach (Callahan) and the scouts considered Frederick a 1st round talent; whereas, with Floyd, the scouts liked him much more than the coaches did. If the scouts had been against the Frederick pick, then I would be concerned picking him based only on the coaches opinion.

 

[rash]

i just hope our 4th rounder pans out.

we've always taken guys with plenty of promise. guys like AOA, Bruce Thornton, Akwasi Owusu-Ansah, and even Skyler Greene were studs in college and would have been studs in the pros if it wasn't for the short leash they were given after being ravaged by injuries.

after an injury it takes time to get back to the form you were prior to thy injury.
AOA.
Bruce.
Skyler.

these guys all got injured and then were cut a season or so after.

Not smart football folks! Just ask HOS!

 

[Risen Star]

Based on general opinion from the media, I'd say it was the former. It's always been implied that Jerry listens to the coaches during the draft rather than the scouts but who really knows.

I agree with that.

Those coaches couldn't even tell you these players names in December. Suddenly they're an expert in April.

The only thing I'd want to know from Bill Callahan is what type of offensive linemen he wants. What are the skills you're looking for? What best fits what you want to do?

In terms of the actual talent of the players available, the coaches can go take a coffee break. I wouldn't want to hear from a single one of them.

 

[jobberone]

I see the scouts job differently. IMO, their job is to evaluate the hundreds of players that are eligible for the draft. This is a job that is obviously too large for the coaches. Once a position coach has been able to personally evaluate a player, then his opinion should be very significant. This would be true if the coach had just spent significant time evaluating the prospect on film and even more if the coach was able to personally work out the player.

I would want players that both the scouts and position coaches like over players that only the scouts or coaches like. It appears that both the position coach (Callahan) and the scouts considered Frederick a 1st round talent; whereas, with Floyd, the scouts liked him much more than the coaches did. If the scouts had been against the Frederick pick, then I would be concerned picking him based only on the coaches opinion.

This. Coaches tell scouts what they want and scouts look for them as well as talent they see as a fit. Scouts give information to the club and the coaches get to review and the FO picks the players they want to focus on.

It's absurd to think Callahan can't pick out players for his system better than anyone else. Not saying he can't be wrong but his voice should be the loudest for OL. Garrett next.

 

[jobberone]

I agree with that.

Those coaches couldn't even tell you these players names in December. Suddenly they're an expert in April.

The only thing I'd want to know from Bill Callahan is what type of offensive linemen he wants. What are the skills you're looking for? What best fits what you want to do?

In terms of the actual talent of the players available, the coaches can go take a coffee break. I wouldn't want to hear from a single one of them.

Calahan will make calls about players and look at film and make an informed decision and that's how boards are put together. For all the major players the team is looking at. Scouts look for players esp the ones the coaches are looking for. Coaches and the FO decide who they are going to draft then develop. If you really think the scouts know more about playing and coaching the OL then you are mistaken.

 

[Risen Star]

Calahan will make calls about players and look at film and make an informed decision and that's how boards are put together. For all the major players the team is looking at. Scouts look for players esp the ones the coaches are looking for. Coaches and the FO decide who they are going to draft then develop. If you really think the scouts know more about playing and coaching the OL then you are mistaken.

Scouts know more about the college talent because that's what they get paid to do and do it year round.

A coach is not a talent evaluator. Especially a position coach like Callahan. He's a talent developer.

Any well run war room is ran by the opinions of the scouts and not the position coaches. If we do it the other way, well, that might be why we haven't been good in nearly 20 years.

 

[dez_for_prez]

To use their draft board as a defense when their draft board has gotten us the worst OL in the league seems like a real stretch to me. I have no doubt Escobar was their BPA. And I have less doubt that they're wrong.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[Hoofbite]

I didn't realize the Dallas Cowboys draft board was so accurate.

What I'm saying is there were better players along the OL than Escobar was at TE and this team continues to make mistakes evaluating the talent at that position.

To use their draft board as a defense when their draft board has gotten us the worst OL in the league seems like a real stretch to me. I have no doubt Escobar was their BPA. And I have less doubt that they're wrong.

This is the same team that just a year ago said Leary was one of the most ready OL in the entire draft and then had him take reps on the scout team for the entire season while a couple of bargain bin players at his position battled it out to see who could struggle least.

 

[Cowboys22]

Scouts know more about the college talent because that's what they get paid to do and do it year round.

A coach is not a talent evaluator. Especially a position coach like Callahan. He's a talent developer.

Any well run war room is ran by the opinions of the scouts and not the position coaches. If we do it the other way, well, that might be why we haven't been good in nearly 20 years.

This is simply ridiculous. You know who scouts are? They are typically ex- players or ex-coaches that weren't good enough at either to make it. They are not special people with superior eyes for talent. To say NFL coaches cannot watch film and evaluate talent as well as or even better than scouts is ridiculous. It's the coaching staff that tells the scouts what traits they want in players a specific positions. The scouts then do the tedious work of traveling and watching film to weed out the guys that don't fit. Once they bring the list of names they think fit, the coaches study the film and scouting reports on those players and everybody gets together to create the draft board. The scouts are the last people qualified to run the war room. They don't have to coach the players or pay them. If well run war rooms are run by the opinion of scouts, they why even have the coaches or front office in there. Just let the scouts draw up a draft board and then you only need the head guy in the war room making the decision. No one works that way. If I'm in Jerry's shoes and it's time to make a selection and my coaches do not want a player, there is no way I take him. Now, they have to have a reasonable argument if it's a player the scouts really like but if my coaches are adament they don't want him, forget it.

 

[jobberone]

Scouts know more about the college talent because that's what they get paid to do and do it year round.

Agreed. But don't think the OL coaches don't know who's out there. At least some of them.

A coach is not a talent evaluator. Especially a position coach like Callahan. He's a talent developer.

Disagree. Of course they are talent evaluators. They have to pick and choose from the players that are in camp and make decisions on who starts and who makes the roster. They evaluate everyday. And they are evaluating next year's roster as soon as the year ends. Then they turn their attention to the draft and FA where they all share in evaluating players. What the scouts do is call attention to players who are already on radar as well as look for those who aren't. They also get the little tidbits of information not on film or in a workout. Like problems and character etc.

Any well run war room is ran by the opinions of the scouts and not the position coaches. If we do it the other way, well, that might be why we haven't been good in nearly 20 years.

You are just dead wrong here. Of course the scouts have their own opinions as do the coaches as does the FO and the guys in the film room. The war room is not about hashing out who they want but of the guys they know they want and is on their board who are they going to pick with the next selection. Generally you're not talking about what player at what position and trades yada. The fight for who people want is mostly over by the time you have to hand a card to the commish.

 

[jobberone]

This is the same team that just a year ago said Leary was one of the most ready OL in the entire draft and then had him take reps on the scout team for the entire season while a couple of bargain bin players at his position battled it out to see who could struggle least.

Leary was known to have health issues. And most OL that are drafted have to be developed. Not many just come in and plug a hole sometimes even the first rounders. You have to look at your current talent before shopping for more.

 

[Hoofbite]

Leary was known to have health issues.

The same health issues he currently has, correct?

Am I forgetting an unrelated injury he suffered last year that held him out for a significant amount of time?

And most OL that are drafted have to be developed. Not many just come in and plug a hole sometimes even the first rounders.

That's fine but when you make the claim that a certain guy is one of the more ready to play guys in the bunch and he spends nearly the entire season on the practice squad, clearly you've misevaluated him. If he was the most ready he would have been on the active roster and probably would have taken some snaps in a couple of games.

You have to look at your current talent before shopping for more.

Generally speaking, sure. But when you have a group of guys who are all nothing but projects, you'd be foolish to sit idly and see how things pan out.

It'd be one thing if Dallas was counting on young promising players to develop but that's not the case. They basically took the best they could find from the garage sale and hoped somebody would shake out.

You have 11 players on the field at one time, 5 of those guys are OL. I don't consider it inpatient to spend a little more of your resources on that area regardless of what is already in the cupboard.

 

[Eskimo]

This is the same team that just a year ago said Leary was one of the most ready OL in the entire draft and then had him take reps on the scout team for the entire season while a couple of bargain bin players at his position battled it out to see who could struggle least.

I'm not sure they said that.

I believe they said they had him graded 3rd round without any points deducted for injury. When you added in the injury concerns they downgraded him to a 5th rounder but they decided not to draft him with the injury. After the draft they couldn't give him a large bonus but gave him a guaranteed portion of his rookie contract worth $200K, commensurate to a 6th round pick, I think.

Anyhow, 3rd-5th rounders are not usually locks to start as rookies so they obviously weren't that high on him as a first day starter. That was likely Jerry hype. He came from a small school and had to make the transition from OT to OG. The complexity of the pro game allegedly was too much for him to pick up right away and he struggled as a rookie picking up the offense.

Allegedly looks much better this year so we'll have to see how he looks once PS starts. It'd be great if he plays well but he has shown signs of major improvement from one year to the next which is what you hope for.

We all need to approach this with a bit of an open mind. Callahan is new here but has a track record of success. Investments have been made in the OL but they are very young by and large and were all new to the system last year. Last year's assessment was compounded by a historic run of injuries. But it's a new year and I think the talent is better and we are healthy across the board for the most part. I am expecting a much better year from this year's group and look forward to continued improvement in the near future if Callahan has brought in the right players for his system.

Past failure is no guarantee of future ineptitude.

 

[big dog cowboy]

their draft board has gotten us the worst OL in the league

When healthy, according to whom?

 

[speedkilz88]

I think on Leary they felt he already had the strength to play in the league but he ended up hitting a wall because he just wasn't ready mentally and technique wise. Which even if he was a 3rd round pick they should never be considered locks to start. They are usually guys that you hope can compete to start by their 2nd year. Which is where he looks to be now.

 

[Idgit]

When healthy, according to whom?

According to anyone who overvalues the value of offensive guards and who doesn't like ours.

To the rest of the world, we're a bottom-ten OL that's hoping to get better play from some young players and by adding a number one pick at C or RG.

 

[Deep_Freeze]

You have 11 players on the field at one time, 5 of those guys are OL. I don't consider it inpatient to spend a little more of your resources on that area regardless of what is already in the cupboard.

Only on this board can a thread about TEs be turned into a thread about the OL (not aimed at you, speaking in general). Its kinda ridiculous really, but anyway, there are 22 players that take the field for a team on offense and defense. There are more positions than the OL, and some of you just don't want to recognize the holes elsewhere.

There is alot of youth on that OL, sure some of you can discount it, but it is youth that is still developing. There are other position groups on this team without that luxury, not to mention the OL has gotten 2 first rounders in the last 3 years.

Enough already, sidetracking threads to always talk about the OL makes this board unreadable.