Jason Garrett quickly becoming one of the longest term head coaches

[ABQCOWBOY]

I would take Garrett over Turner any day of the week. In 2009 I probably wouldn't have said that though.....

In 2009, taking Garrett over Turner would have been a mistake. I don't think there is anything wrong with what you say here.

 

[Idgit]

@Bullflop / Including your HC in the decision making process is a relative term. I don't like Garrett as a HC. But Garrett is the HC and, as such, should have one of the bigger voices in the process, especially when it comes to how he handles "his" staff. I think that Garrett had it with Linehan and Marinelli (to a lesser extent) but not with Callahan and Kiffin.

No self respecting HC would allow himself to be called a trainee and no NFL owner who respects his HC would describe him as such. I'm not sure how the GM of a billion dollar franchise who thinks his HC is in training can value his assessment on personel, coaches, etc.....

Jerry's quote was stupid, but if you're going to mention it, mention he was talking about learning to be a Superbowl HC and not about simply being capable of coaching an NFL team in any capacity. That also explains why you're not sure how the owner would be able to think a guy both needs to develop and can still be a valuable asset to the organization. It's not really a stretch.

It was a stupid thing to say, though, because it was so easily misinterpreted by fans and media who were looking for something to misinterpret. Fortunately, they appear to have been wrong again, and it is indeed possible for a first time HC to both do good work and improve at his job at the same time.

 

[Dodger12]

Jerry's quote was stupid, but if you're going to mention it, mention he was talking about learning to be a Superbowl HC and not about simply being capable of coaching an NFL team in any capacity. That also explains why you're not sure how the owner would be able to think a guy both needs to develop and can still be a valuable asset to the organization. It's not really a stretch.

It was a stupid thing to say, though, because it was so easily misinterpreted by fans and media who were looking for something to misinterpret. Fortunately, they appear to have been wrong again, and it is indeed possible for a first time HC to both do good work and improve at his job at the same time.

The context of the quote was made in response to a question about Garrett's future with the team after another season ending defeat which knocked us out of the playoffs and the NFC East. I don't need to rewrite the context to make folks feel better about what Jerry said.

At the end of the day, the quote was telling about how Jerry viewed Garrett. Was it stupid? Sure it was. But have a bit more respect for your HC than to make a comment like that in public. Jimmy Johnson saw the "any one of 500 coaches" line from Jerry and that was the straw that broke the cammel's back. But Garrett is not Jimmy and he has a few million reasons (per year) to stay where he's at. I'm just not going to fool myself into believing Garrett is some trusted voice when Lacewell, the guy with a horrendous track record, can talk Jerry into hiring Monte Kiffin onto Garrett's staff. Now if you're going to try and convince me that Kiffin was a Garrett hire, then things are even worse than I thought.

 

[KJJ]

Garrett is fortunate he got in good with Jerry because 3 straight 8-8 seasons would have gotten him fired anywhere else. Jerry brought Garrett to Dallas to groom him to be the Cowboys next HC and Jerry's ego kept him patient.

 

[big dog cowboy]

Garrett is fortunate he got in good with Jerry because 3 straight 8-8 seasons would have gotten him fired anywhere else.

Not necessarily. The injury situation on defense would buy him time but more than anything Garrett rebuilt the roster during those years. You don't go thru all that and then fire your HC.

 

[Idgit]

The context of the quote was made in response to a question about Garrett's future with the team after another season ending defeat which knocked us out of the playoffs and the NFC East. I don't need to rewrite the context to make folks feel better about what Jerry said.

At the end of the day, the quote was telling about how Jerry viewed Garrett. Was it stupid? Sure it was. But have a bit more respect for your HC than to make a comment like that in public. Jimmy Johnson saw the "any one of 500 coaches" line from Jerry and that was the straw that broke the cammel's back. But Garrett is not Jimmy and he has a few million reasons (per year) to stay where he's at. I'm just not going to fool myself into believing Garrett is some trusted voice when Lacewell, the guy with a horrendous track record, can talk Jerry into hiring Monte Kiffin onto Garrett's staff. Now if you're going to try and convince me that Kiffin was a Garrett hire, then things are even worse than I thought.

If you're not interested in the actual context, then it doesn't really matter. But it's there if you ever want to revisit the quote. Bringing up the 8-8 seasons where we were playing for the NFCE titles in week 17 with a bottom ranked defense isn't making your argument for you.

And I beg to differ with you on another point. At the end of the day, what was telling was the 5 year $30M extension and not your off-base take on Jones' relative level of respect for his head coach.

 

[Idgit]

Garrett is fortunate he got in good with Jerry because 3 straight 8-8 seasons would have gotten him fired anywhere else. Jerry brought Garrett to Dallas to groom him to be the Cowboys next HC and Jerry's ego kept him patient.

How do you go about supporting a comment like this? Just make stuff up and hope that nobody notices? Coaches survive 500 records on the way to rebuilding teams all the time. And there's no possible way you can argue that it was Jerry's ego and not his honest appraisal that kept him steady on the Jason Garrett hire.

It did used to sound good, though, when you guys were always saying these things to yourselves. Remember those days? Before the 12-4 season and the big extension and everything? Back when just making up a negative interpretation of what was actually going on was popular and commonplace?

Yeah, those were good times.

 

[KJJ]

How do you go about supporting a comment like this? Just make stuff up and hope that nobody notices? Coaches survive 500 records on the way to rebuilding teams all the time. And there's no possible way you can argue that it was Jerry's ego and not his honest appraisal that kept him steady on the Jason Garrett hire.

It did used to sound good, though, when you guys were always saying these things to yourselves. Remember those days? Before the 12-4 season and the big extension and everything? Back when just making up a negative interpretation of what was actually going on was popular and commonplace?

Yeah, those were good times.

It's easy to support a comment like that just look around the league. How many head coaches in recent years can you name that have survived 3 straight non winning seasons with no playoff appearances who also had a franchise QB? No one is making anything up just giving an opinion based on how short a tenure most NFL head coaches have if they don't win in their first 3 seasons. Head coaches are usually given some time if they don't have a franchise QB but it their team is continuing to spin their wheels after year 3 they're usually gone. Jerry brought Garrett to Dallas in 07 to groom him to be the Cowboys next HC. Not a lot of teams bring in a coach to groom them to be their future HC.

Jerry went out of his way to overpay Garrett as an OC after the 07 season to keep him in the fold. Jerry had a 4-5 year plan with Garrett and was determined to stay the course with him no matter how bad things got. I can't see any HC surviving with another organization who went through 3 straight 500 seasons with 3 consecutive season finale elimination game losses to 3 different teams within their division along with a multitude of glaring coaching blunders along the way. It's easy to argue it was Jerry's ego that kept Garrett around because everyone knows Jerry has an ego and Garrett was his pet project. It got so bad for Garrett Jerry took away the play calling from him and another team/owner would have never been patient enough to stay the course with him as bumpy as it got his first 3 seasons.

 

[KJJ]

Not necessarily. The injury situation on defense would buy him time but more than anything Garrett rebuilt the roster during those years. You don't go thru all that and then fire your HC.

Injury situations don't buy head coaches a lot of time because injuries are part of the game and the good teams are able to overcome a majority of them even some teams that have lost their franchise QB. When a team has a franchise QB they're not going to be given a lot of time. The only thing that can buy a coach some time is when they don't have a franchise QB. That's the one excuse you can make to keep a HC around. Not even Belichick was able to win consistently until Brady came along.

 

[BigStar]

Your argument doesn't make any sense. Every team gets a first round pick every year. The Cowboys have developed all those players since he got here, he didn't inherit any of those players. Dez was a hot mess for good chunks of his first 2 years here and many people called for his release multiple times on this site and in the media - he became the player he is today under Garrett's direction and you can't assume that would have happened anywhere else. Many teams have missed on picking OL that many people here coveted (Eric Fisher, Lane Johnson, Jon Cooper, Chance Warmack, Justin Pugh). Heck, the Travis Frederick pick was ripped to shreds here. If drafting OL were such a blueprint to success how come the Cowboys hadn't done so in about 30 years before Garrett arrived and yet 3 out of 4 years we went that way in the draft during his stay here and hit a HR each time.

I don't believe we had the talent to be a definitive playoff team but we did compete for a playoff spot every year of his tenure here. That is a good coaching job by almost any standard. Our starting interior OL back in 2011 was Bill Nagy, Phil Costa and Kyle Kosier playing on his last legs.

The part that he did inherit was a top 10 QB, a great TE, a great WR who couldn't stay healthy (Austin) and 1.5 seasons of a great pass rusher (Ware). There was talent but outside of the QB position a bottom 10 roster in the league overall the day he took over.

Go back and look at the 2010 roster he inherited and explain to me where all the established talent to build a playoff team was outside of Romo, Witten and Ware. And remember, we are talking about their futures, not their past. I've already made my case there wasn't much established talent to work with but show me what I have missed or discounted. Since those players are no longer here justify the strength of that roster by showing they were great players by being successful elsewhere after they left.


Here are the guys I can think of. Marty Bennett who was a knucklehead and didn't want to backup Witten anymore. Terence Newman who had a very bad second half of 2011 before rebounding with the Bengals as a 3rd CB. Demarcus Ware who is a nickel pass rusher who has gotten about 5 sacks in the second half of the last 3 seasons. Jason Hatcher who at 32 years old was not part of our future is a solid DT with the Commanders but did play at a high level for us from 2011-2013. However, in Hatcher's case he got no offers in UFA in 2011 before coming back to the Cowboys and only established himself thereafter (i.e. he wasn't really an established player back in 2010).

You're pointing out more of the roster turnover that has occurred under JG's tenure. Outside of the OL, I don't see the drafted talent that is associated with this. Dez, definitely. Maybe Craw, Law, but who else? Lee isn't an impact bc of his frailty. Carter was week to week in relevance. Beasley is just another slot wr on any other team but we love them locks around here (I like the player too). Murray had one breakout year which showed he should have been used more throughout his tenure if anything. Claiborne has busted as a 1st rounder under JG. I was pointing out that the OL wasn't developed so much as chosen with premium draft picks that showed their talent in their rookie years, etc. Got lucky with Leary but the other OL were premium picks...yes premium picks bust, as seen with Claiborne.

He took 4 years and the talent I described to win a playoff game. He cost us a chance at the playoffs directly through his "game time" decision making and poor offensive scheme (pass happy, not shortening routes with bad OL, etc.). Dez would be just fine in NE/SEA/PIT, etc. The presence of a firm coach, some team leadership (lacking on O) and matured culture is all he needed. So JG is now the GM and gets credit for a team that looks different (talent wise) than a team from 2010? Ok, and? I would hope the team looks different than 4 seasons ago, but the main variable remains the same; the presence of a franchise QB. You are never rebuilding in the NFL with a franchise QB.

 

[KJJ]

This thread backs up a lot of what I'm saying with Garrett already becoming one of the longest term head coaches in the league.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

We had 3 8-8 seasons and one 12-4 season for a four year average of 9-7.

If we are not going to send on his way after three 8-8 seasons...how about we not annoint him the next great Coach of the Cowboys after one good season.

I want to see if we can continue to be a team with a winning record and a shot in the playoffs. I remember Wade Phillips had a good year with a 13-3 record, followed up with a 9-7 record, followed up with an 11-5 and then 1-7 before getting fired.

Let's see how he does the next few years before people starting throwing their chests out and strutting around like banty roosters especial if those same people were getting onto others for calling out a coach after three consecutive 8-8 seasons.

I hope he can continue doing well with this team and make them contenders or better...but I am not throwing my chips all in when he has had one good season after three crappy ones.

Nope...not yet.

 

[Dodger12]

If you're not interested in the actual context, then it doesn't really matter. But it's there if you ever want to revisit the quote. Bringing up the 8-8 seasons where we were playing for the NFCE titles in week 17 with a bottom ranked defense isn't making your argument for you.

And I beg to differ with you on another point. At the end of the day, what was telling was the 5 year $30M extension and not your off-base take on Jones' relative level of respect for his head coach.

I'm interested in the context enough to know what context it was made in. It was made in response to a question about Garrett's future, not a question about the SB or if Garrett would ever win one. I don't think Jerry could have been any clearer in his statement yet people want to interpret it differently. here it is:

“We’ve put a lot of effort in training as a franchise into Jason Garrett, and I want to take advantage of that,” Jones said. “If we don’t have him, we don’t get payback for all the miscues and losses and criticism of sideline management. We don’t get a chance to benefit from the one way you learn, and that is the mistakes you make. So I want to have him around to learn. I’ve seen another smart coach, a very smart coach, learn from a lot of mistakes early and go on and win Super Bowls. Most of them do.”

What's even more telling than Jason's contrat is the list of tenured coaches provided by the Op. With the exception of Garrett and Lewis, they've all won SB's. In a normal franchise, success is the key to longevity for a coach, not the owner's comfort zone. Garrett's going to get his shot now that he's been extended.

 

[Dodger12]

Let's see how he does the next few years before people starting throwing their chests out and strutting around like banty roosters especial if those same people were getting onto others for calling out a coach after three consecutive 8-8 seasons.

I hope he can continue doing well with this team and make them contenders or better...but I am not throwing my chips all in when he has had one good season after three crappy ones.

Nope...not yet.

A lot of things have to go a team's way to win a SB; players having career years, relatively few injuries (especially those to impact players/positions), good drafting and personnel evaluations panning out, and even some luck. I can live with a HC whose system and coaching ability keeps us competitive and gives us a shot if we make the playoffs. When a good coach and franchise QB team up, good things happen. But I've seen very little from Garrett to make me believe he offers any real advantage on game day. If 12 and 4 has shown me anything, it's that less is better with Garrett.

 

[KJJ]

Bringing up the 8-8 seasons where we were playing for the NFCE titles in week 17 with a bottom ranked defense isn't making your argument for you.

The Cowboys only had a bottom ranked defense once during their three 8-8 seasons and that was in 2013. In 2011 during the Cowboys first 8-8 season under Garrett they ranked 14th in total defense which was higher than the Giants and Pats who both made the SB. In 2012 the Cowboys ranked 19th in total defense which was 9 spots higher than Washington who beat the Cowboys in a season finale elimination game.

 

[CowboyRoy]

I'll be the first one to admit that I'm not a huge fan of Jason Garrett, though I do appreciate what he has put together here, and what he is putting together.

I'm actually glad that he was retained... yeah, shocker, I know. I agree with the sentiment that head coaching and QB stability results in wins, and it results in playoff success. Keeping systems in place make it easier to have success from year to year. While other teams are trying to implement new offenses and defenses, we're focused on getting better and executing better.

One of my biggest criticisms of Garret is that it seemed as though he was blocking some NFL quality coaching talent from coming here, particularly with Norv Turner and maybe even Dan Reeves back in 2009.

I think having Linehan and Marinelli here and with consistency from year to year gives us tremendous upside that is often overlooked. I think we're starting to see a lot less turnover on offense (even though we lost Murray), because the offense has stabilized. Linehan came in pretty much working off of Garrett's system which was similar to his own and this is Marinelli's second year as coordinator (though we ran the same system with Kiffin). Stability combined with smart player acquisition and I think we're on the right path.

Bill Belichick - 2000 - 175 games
Marvin Lewis - 2003 - 100 games
Tom Coughlin - 2004 - 96 games
Mike McCarthy - 2006 - 94 games
Sean Payton - 2006 - 80 games
Mike Tomlin - 2007 - 82 games
John Harbaugh - 2008 - 72 games
Jason Garrett 2010 - 41 games

I will say that basically everyone on this list one a super bowl within 3-4 years, so we do need to see some return from Garrett. I do think it was inappropriate for a rookie head coach to try to be offensive coordinator and head coach at the same time. I think that set us back. That being said, I think Garrett is going to be well placed in the future to be a top head coach. I do think he is smart and motivational. It was funny when Jerry said it, but the Cowboys did invest in training him to be the head coach. I just hope it didn't cost too much (i.e. Romo's career, it cost too much for Ware).

Yah, maybe if he gets another 8 years he will learn how to coach. At least Jerry has reduced him to walk around/fanny patter/hugger/parrot.

I bet if you asked him he would tell you that "Im going to stack good days on top of good days and take one day at a time and try to improve". LOL

 

[CowboyRoy]

I think if Garrett got the coordinators early on his his career as a head coach, which I think he wasn't experienced enough for to begin with, we could have done better than 8-8 while we ushered in his vision of what the team would look like.

No question. Garrett has all but wasted Romo's entire career due to his "learning on the job". Actually, I blame Jones for putting us through the horror show. At least he finally figured out that he had to get Garrett away from the offense, player acquisition, and game day management. Too bad it took him 8 years to figure that out.

Garrett lost 3 or 4 games per year by himself when he was OC and OC/HC. Poor Wade was forced to have him as his OC. No telling what that team might have accomlished with a real OC running the offense.

 

[CowboyRoy]

A lot of things have to go a team's way to win a SB; players having career years, relatively few injuries (especially those to impact players/positions), good drafting and personnel evaluations panning out, and even some luck. I can live with a HC whose system and coaching ability keeps us competitive and gives us a shot if we make the playoffs. When a good coach and franchise QB team up, good things happen. But I've seen very little from Garrett to make me believe he offers any real advantage on game day. If 12 and 4 has shown me anything, it's that less is better with Garrett.

In order to truly build a contender, I believe one of the ingredients is at least 2 or 3 very good drafts in a row. I think the Cowboys have done that with this draft being the 3rd in a row. This one probably being the best of all 3. I'm including Collins in the draft.

The addition of Will Clay handling the scouting and the draft has REALLY made the biggest difference to the Cowboys in the last few years. That and Garrett being replaced on game day and being relegated to fanny patter.

Jones lets Clay handle most of the draft, Stephen handle salary cap and FA, the coordinators handle the defense and the offense, and he lets Garrett talk his coach speak and gives him the support he needs. That combination has changed everything in my opinion. (Clay bringing in the talent through the draft is #1)

The one big mistake they continue to make, however, is not drafting a young QB. They passed up another guy in the 3rd round that I would have much rather had than an OT. I believe the Jets nabbed him early in the 4th.

 

[CowboyRoy]

The Cowboys only had a bottom ranked defense once during their three 8-8 seasons and that was in 2013. In 2011 during the Cowboys first 8-8 season under Garrett they ranked 14th in total defense which was higher than the Giants and Pats who both made the SB. In 2012 the Cowboys ranked 19th in total defense which was 9 spots higher than Washington who beat the Cowboys in a season finale elimination game.

During those 8-8 seasons, Garrett was abandoning the run in the first quarter nearly every game. We were down double digits in the first quarter nearly every week. Those defenses had to stay on the field way too long because there were too many 3 and outs. Garrett would have Romo back in shotgun winging the ball all over the place. He had like some crazy stat of like throwing 60 or 70% of the time on first down. Then he would run predictably on 2nd down and we would be 3rd and 8 all the time. It was a horror show watching Garrett call a game.

 

[KJJ]

No question. Garrett has all but wasted Romo's entire career due to his "learning on the job". Actually, I blame Jones for putting us through the horror show. At least he finally figured out that he had to get Garrett away from the offense, player acquisition, and game day management. Too bad it took him 8 years to figure that out.

Garrett lost 3 or 4 games per year by himself when he was OC and OC/HC. Poor Wade was forced to have him as his OC. No telling what that team might have accomlished with a real OC running the offense.

Garrett learning on the job hasn't prevented Romo from being one of the most productive QB's in the league. Romo hasn't had a passer rating lower than 91.4 since Garrett has been here. In 07 Romo had a career high 36 TD's with Garrett as the OC and the Cowboys ranked 3rd in total offense. Had the Cowboys had a quality HC that season instead of a cream puff who coddled his players allowing them to become complacent after the big win over Green Bay the team would have made it to the SB that year. It wasn't Garrett who gave his blessings to Romo and Witten to go to Cabo right before the Cowboys playoff game with the Giants.