Kenny Vaccaro vs. Tavon Austin

[Gaede]

I've really been questioning my opinion on Vaccaro lately. I'll admit to looking at his stats, not seeing interceptions, and not taking him seriously as an option at 18.

But you watch him play and he is not only explosive, but instinctive. It's not as if the guy only makes plays as a result of his athleticism. He reads plays extremely well and reacts immediately.

For an example, watch Vaccaro vs. Tavon Austin. In particular, the play at 1:58.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0lKPYyR0gw

The play above is a touchdown saving tackle on an elite athlete in which Vaccaro correctly reads the reverse and immediately destroys the play. It shows how Vaccaro is not just an athlete, but a football player. He is fast, athletic, tough, can tackle and instinctive. Though the stats show a lack of interceptions, he makes plays in other ways.

Sure, it sucks to spend another 1st round on the secondary. But safety is a giant hole on the defense. And there is likely going to be a lack of options for us at 18.

Guys like Cooper, Richardson, and Vaccaro offer an elite set of skills and should be our targets at 18

Guys like Fluker and Warmack are good football players, but likely lack the athleticism to be elite in the NFL. I think these two should be trade down targets only.

 

[Tobal]

In three years in a very good defense with a team that scored a lot of points and won a National Championship forcing opponents to throw often. Earl Thomas had 10 interceptions.

 

[joseephuss]

In three years in a very good defense with a team that scored a lot of points and won a National Championship forcing opponents to throw often. Earl Thomas had 10 interceptions.

Texas did not win a National Championship while Thomas was there.

2007
Thomas redshirted and did not play

2008
Thomas had 2 INTs

2009
Thomas had 8 INTs

Thomas had a total of 10 interceptions at UT. During that time the Texas defense faced 953 pass attempt from their opponents. That is 1 INT every 95.3 pass attempts.

Vaccaro had a total of 5 interceptions at UT. During that time the Texas defense faced 1574 pass attempts from their opponents. That is 1 INT every 314.8 pass attempts.

 

[Future]

People are way overrating the lack of INTs, imo.

Anthony Henry had 10 in the NFL as a rookie safety then had only 21 more the entire rest of his career as a corner. I know it's a bit of a stretch comparison, but the point is that INTs in one year do not predict what a guy will do in his career. And, on the flip side, a lack of picks does not mean that a guy can't be a playmaker.

Vaccaro is a good tackler and great athlete. He'll be a very good NFL safety. Whether he warrants a pick at #18 or not, its hard to say. But I still think he's the most complete safety in the draft, and I'd be more than fine if we got him in the first.

 

[CATCH17]

Tavon Austin is a special player imo.

Vaccaro? I just don't see a special player.


I'd take Austin.

 

[jterrell]

those clips show a RW31 type player.

Vaccaro is in the box.

He is clearly a good player and special athlete with far better coverage skills than RW#31 but he didnt play safety... he played nickel CB and LB.

That would be my concern as he played near 0 Tampa 2 Safety roles.

 

[joseephuss]

those clips show a RW31 type player.

Vaccaro is in the box.

He is clearly a good player and special athlete with far better coverage skills than RW#31 but he didnt play safety... he played nickel CB and LB.

That would be my concern as he played near 0 Tampa 2 Safety roles.

That is how I see it as well. Plus I don't think he is a good tackler. He is okay, but he misses a lot of tackles as well because he goes for the hard hit instead of the sure tackle.

 

[Future]

Tavon Austin is a special player imo.

Vaccaro? I just don't see a special player.


I'd take Austin.

Someone didn't read the OP :laugh2:

 

[Gaede]

After posting this, I watched the youtube game of him vs. Texas Tech, anddddddd I question his value again.

Just a lethargic, lazy performance. Physically, doesn't even look like the same guy.

I think the above post is right on. Vaccaro can be a very very good in the box safety, with the added bonus of moving to the slot.

But there really isn't any footage of him playing the role he would here.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

After posting this, I watched the youtube game of him vs. Texas Tech, anddddddd I question his value again.

Just a lethargic, lazy performance. Physically, doesn't even look like the same guy.

I think the above post is right on. Vaccaro can be a very very good in the box safety, with the added bonus of moving to the slot.

But there really isn't any footage of him playing the role he would here.

Watch film of him from 2011 and 2010. That will show you are looking for.

 

[jterrell]

Watch film of him from 2011 and 2010. That will show you are looking for.

what games?
against OU in 2011 he is again playing nickel CB.

the only games I find him playing deep safety are versus KState and he looks really bad those games... largely taking poor angles as he comes up to stop the run. ---this seems to me to be a serious issue for UT as this was a terrible defensive scheme imho for that particular opponent. vaccaro is a great run support guy when up in the box.. not so much at deep safety.

again really good overall athlete and valuable player but i question his scheme fit in a tampa 2. might be why dallas has been looking more at round2/3 safeties.

 

[reddyuta]

We should be looking for somebody like phillip thomas ,that guy can play in space.

 

[BAT]

Tavon Austin is a special player imo.

Vaccaro? I just don't see a special player.


I'd take Austin.

OP was not comparing the two, but I wholeheartedly agree. Vacarro is not nearly the playmaker that Austin is.

 

[Eskimo]

After posting this, I watched the youtube game of him vs. Texas Tech, anddddddd I question his value again.

Just a lethargic, lazy performance. Physically, doesn't even look like the same guy.

I think the above post is right on. Vaccaro can be a very very good in the box safety, with the added bonus of moving to the slot.

But there really isn't any footage of him playing the role he would here.

He'd be a bit like Darren Woodson then. Woodson was an LB in college but had 4.4 speed. With the Cowboys he mostly played SS but also lined up against the slot WR a fair bit in the nickel.

I think it is very useful nowadays to have a player who can play the run well and cover the slot WRs. The problem is that most CBs who can play receivers aren't good enough tacklers to do it. Most Safeties and LBs who can play the run well don't have the coverage skills to go against WRs.

That is why I think you almost have to envision a new kind of player as the slot CB who is now basically a starter because teams play so many spread looks. Now your 4th CB on the depth chart is more like your #3 CB back in the day who might only come in on 3rd downs.

So if you're going to have this new player you have to try to find a prototype for what that guy must be. Well he has to be quick enough to stay with the slot WRs in largely man coverage which is a very difficult feat. A good slot WR can be a horrific nuissance who can keep converting 3rd and mediums into first downs for you or earn back a chunk of yardage after a bad first down to give you 3rd down and intermediate instead of 3rd and long. I envision a guy who is a bit short, more quick than fast and a think, compact body so he has the strength and low center of gravity to take on RBs and blockers. Unfortunately most Safeties who typically can't be converted to this job. I think you actually need to start with a smaller, thicker, quicker CB and stick him in there.

Vaccaro may be an exception to the rule but I'm not sure how he'd match up against a Wes Welker or Devon Bess or Lance Moore. I think he'd probably do a better job against the Jimmy Grahams and Rob Gronkowski's of the world who represent a different kind of mismatch. But if Vacarro can actually cover the short quick guys and the big strong guys then he is definitely worthy of the 18 pick and you just make sure the other Safety can play CF a whole lot better.

Now that brings into question as to whether Vacarro even fits our scheme at all. He sounds very much like a traditional SS but we really want two FS who are both good at coming up and playing the run when need be.

I think those who are suggesting Phil Thomas may be a better fit for us are probably right but Thomas isn't expected to come off the board anywhere near the middle of the first round.

I'm beginning to think our best move may be to draft the best DE on the board in preparation for Spencer's departure next year: Werner, Carradine or Datone Jones would seem to be the 3 guys in contention. Right now I think Jones may be the best of the 3 overall. He would also fit much better in the scheme of a Seattle Tampa two much better than Spencer does. He could also flex into the 3 Tech DT if he can gain another 15 pounds or so if we end up keeping Spencer on a long-term deal.

 

[TheCount]

Tavon Austin is a special player imo.

Vaccaro? I just don't see a special player.


I'd take Austin.

Contrary to the title, this is not a Vacarro vs Austin thread.

Now that brings into question as to whether Vacarro even fits our scheme at all. He sounds very much like a traditional SS but we really want two FS who are both good at coming up and playing the run when need be.

I don't know many traditional SS's that regularly line up man to man against slot receivers.

Vacarro may be a lot of things, but traditional isn't one of them. He's also a very underrated athlete. If all you saw was his 40 time and then the rest of his numbers, you'd never guess they were posted by the same player.

 

[Gaede]

That's strange Eskimo, I was also thinking about Woodson when I made the thread...I think he can be that type of player....But I also agree he may not fit our defense

 

[Rack]

I've really been questioning my opinion on Vaccaro lately. I'll admit to looking at his stats, not seeing interceptions, and not taking him seriously as an option at 18.

But you watch him play and he is not only explosive, but instinctive. It's not as if the guy only makes plays as a result of his athleticism. He reads plays extremely well and reacts immediately.

For an example, watch Vaccaro vs. Tavon Austin. In particular, the play at 1:58.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0lKPYyR0gw

The play above is a touchdown saving tackle on an elite athlete in which Vaccaro correctly reads the reverse and immediately destroys the play. It shows how Vaccaro is not just an athlete, but a football player. He is fast, athletic, tough, can tackle and instinctive. Though the stats show a lack of interceptions, he makes plays in other ways.

Sure, it sucks to spend another 1st round on the secondary. But safety is a giant hole on the defense. And there is likely going to be a lack of options for us at 18.

Guys like Cooper, Richardson, and Vaccaro offer an elite set of skills and should be our targets at 18

Guys like Fluker and Warmack are good football players, but likely lack the athleticism to be elite in the NFL. I think these two should be trade down targets only.

Does Vacarro always go backwards when he makes a "hit" like he does in that video? The dude is going to get demolished by NFL RB's.