Landmines, Pitfalls and Quicksand

[Sydla]

If every player being discussed has developed to the level that they are worthy of being amongst the highest paid players at their respective positions then why aren't the Cowboys a more dominant team.

LT - one of the highest paid
C - one of the highest paid
RG - one of the highest paid
RT - one of the highest paid.
LG - rookie 2nd rd contract.
QB - apparently worthy of 25 to 30 mil a year which would be in the top tier of highest paid players in the history of the nfl.
RB - Already talk about how expensive his 2nd contract is going to be.
WR - being discussed as being the 3rd highest paid WR in the history of the NFL.
DE - Lawrence apparently worthy of being the highest paid 4-3 DE in NFL history.
DT - Crawford has to be amongst the highest paid rotational 3 tech in the NFL and has been for years.
CB - shutdown corner that needs to be paid as an elite CB despite one good year and no interceptions.

These are most of the important positions on the team and they are all supposedly superstars. I must have missed the 16-0 season these superstars put together.

Do you want to take this thread in that direction?

 

[cowboyec]

Why would you pay Amari first?

because.

 

[Killerinstinct]

Do you want to take this thread in that direction?

I can't put it all on the coaches.

 

[cern]

the "new" front office consists of Stephen and mcclay. they've done a very good job steering the ship thru the draft and parsimonious, but astute free agency moves of late. imo, they will continue to do the same. the salary cap hobbles every team in that you can't keep everyone you'd like to. there just isn't enough money to go around. ergo, a patriots attitude is needed. determine whether or not you can sign an individual, and if you can't, trade him before you lost his rights. i'm seeing tank in that category at the moment.

 

[Sydla]

I can't put it all on the coaches.

It's the more logical explanation than blaming like a dozen or so players for not living up to their contract hype.

 

[mattjames2010]

I would pay Amari first because you can actually decrease his cap hit by extending him now.

This really isn't addressing the problem - are you okay with paying Amari Cooper 15+ mil a year for a guy who has had a historic drop rate 2 out of the 4 seasons he's played in this league and for a couple big games for us?

I mean, of course we're going to because our dopey owner gave up a first, but this is a message board where we don't have to be as stupid as Jerry.

 

[Killerinstinct]

It's the more logical explanation than blaming like a dozen or so players for not living up to their contract hype.

That's easy to say until you look it the whole of the production during the past contracts.
Is Dak's first 3 years of production really good enough to make him worthy of being amongst the highest paid players in NFL history?
Did Tanks first years really make him worthy of being the highest paid 4-3 de in history?
Byron Jones's first 4 years really have you thinking one of the best cb's in NFL history?
Amari really worthy of the 3rd best wr pay in NFL history?

This is a problem that needs to be addressed the way N.E. does it. Try to sign them and then trade them if they start thinking they are the g.o.a.t.

 

[Killerinstinct]

This really isn't addressing the problem - are you okay with paying Amari Cooper 15+ mil a year for a guy who has had a historic drop rate 2 out of the 4 seasons he's played in this league and for a couple big games for us?

I mean, of course we're going to because our dopey owner gave up a first, but this is a message board where we don't have to be as stupid as Jerry.

No argument. But I think you asked why Cooper first? The reason is he is the only one that by extending him it actually helps your cap in the short term.

Do I think it was a good idea? If you had told me when the trade was made that he would expect to be the 3rd highest paid WR in NFL history after 1/2 year of production, I would have said NO!

 

[Sydla]

That's easy to say until you look it the whole of the production during the past contracts.
Is Dak's first 3 years of production really good enough to make him worthy of being amongst the highest paid players in NFL history?
Did Tanks first years really make him worthy of being the highest paid 4-3 de in history?
Byron Jones's first 4 years really have you thinking one of the best cb's in NFL history?
Amari really worthy of the 3rd best wr pay in NFL history?

This is a problem that needs to be addressed the way N.E. does it. Try to sign them and then trade them if they start thinking they are the g.o.a.t.

But contracts aren't always based on what you did 4 years ago. In other words, teams are paying players for what they developed into. So yes, if Lawrence were a FA on the open market, he'd likely command a big DE contract because of how he played his last two seasons, not for what he did 4 years ago. Because he developed into a dominant DE. The Cowboys aren't going to pay Jaylon Smith for what he did in 2017. They are going to pay him what the market dictates based on how he played in 2018 and 2019 after he developed.

Conversely, if an aging player has seem a decline in production, you aren't going to pay him for what he did 3-4-5 years ago. You are going to pay him for what he did more recently.

Of course it's easy to say. Because it's a real stretch of logic to sit here and suggest that hey, you know what, all these guys that we are paying top dollars too really aren't that good. Sure, if we were talking 2 or 3 guys, but you listed like a dozen guys and seemingly want to argue that none are probably good as their contracts or what their future contracts will be and that shows in the on the field results.

Would seem to me if you have a bunch of great players, and we do, if they aren't winning, something else is amiss. In other words, yes, I think Z. Martin is the best OG in football. I think Lawrence is really a great DE. Yes, I think Elliott is one of the 3 best TBs in football. Yes, I think Jones played like one of the 5-6 best CBs in football this past year.

For your theory to hold, you must think guys like Martin and Lawrence and Cooper and others are just flat out overrated and overpaid. Frankly, I think the problem is multi-faceted. Primarily, we have average coaches. But I also think the roster has some flaws based on the philosophies of the FO and how they handle certain positions and use FA for roster building.

 

[Alexander]

Blake Jarwin - His trajectory is up. If he takes another step forward he will be getting a huge pay raise next year too.

He sure is getting an awful lot of mileage out of his one career game with more than 56 receiving yards.

 

[Killerinstinct]

But contracts aren't always based on what you did 4 years ago. In other words, teams are paying players for what they developed into. So yes, if Lawrence were a FA on the open market, he'd likely command a big DE contract because of how he played his last two seasons, not for what he did 4 years ago. Because he developed into a dominant DE. The Cowboys aren't going to pay Jaylon Smith for what he did in 2017. They are going to pay him what the market dictates based on how he played in 2018 and 2019 after he developed.

We aren't talking about a big DE contract. We are talking about the largest DE contract in NFL history.

Conversely, if an aging player has seem a decline in production, you aren't going to pay him for what he did 3-4-5 years ago. You are going to pay him for what he did more recently.

Of course it's easy to say. Because it's a real stretch of logic to sit here and suggest that hey, you know what, all these guys that we are paying top dollars too really aren't that good. Sure, if we were talking 2 or 3 guys, but you listed like a dozen guys and seemingly want to argue that none are probably good as their contracts or what their future contracts will be and that shows in the on the field results.

I listed the players that the most important positions on the team and pointed out how they are all amongst the highest paid or demanding to be at their respective positions and wondered how they could all be that great without winning more.

Would seem to me if you have a bunch of great players, and we do, if they aren't winning, something else is amiss. In other words, yes, I think Z. Martin is the best OG in football. I think Lawrence is really a great DE. Yes, I think Elliott is one of the 3 best TBs in football. Yes, I think Jones played like one of the 5-6 best CBs in football this past year.

Lawrence is a really great DE? Ok. Is he the best DE in the history of the nFL? Then why should he be paid as if he is.



For your theory to hold, you must think guys like Martin and Lawrence and Cooper and others are just flat out overrated and overpaid.

I think if every player at the most important positions are the highest paid or demanding to be then you should win more.

 

[Killerinstinct]

He sure is getting an awful lot of mileage out of his one career game with more than 56 receiving yards.

Unless they add one I think he is going to go into the year as the clear cut no 1 and if that happens his production will increase dramatically.

 

[Sydla]

I think if every player at the most important positions are the highest paid or demanding to be then you should win more.

Yes, Lawrence is one of the best DEs in football. It's absurd to suggest otherwise. And yes, inflation and the ever increasing market likely means he's going to get paid like one of the highest paid DEs in NFL history. Then two years from now, he won't be the highest paid DE. That's how this all works - timing, etc. all factor in.

And I told you how all these players we have that are the highest paid or will be the highest paid haven't won anything. We have a coaching issue and a flawed front office philosophy. It's not that our highly paid players aren't that good.

Take the Rams for example. They had a pretty talented roster that under Fisher, couldn't get out of its own way. Insert a new coach, sprinkle in a couple of key FAs, and presto they have one of the best rosters in the NFL and just made a SB.

 

[Rockport]

I agree but is he really that elite that we should be discussing 20 to 23 mil a year? My god that is franchise QB money.

I haven't heard any such contract numbers. But he's worth top 5 DE money whatever that is.

 

[Killerinstinct]

Yes, Lawrence is one of the best DEs in football. It's absurd to suggest otherwise. And yes, inflation and the ever increasing market likely means he's going to get paid like one of the highest paid DEs in NFL history. Then two years from now, he won't be the highest paid DE. That's how this all works - timing, etc. all factor in.

And I told you how all these players we have that are the highest paid or will be the highest paid haven't won anything. We have a coaching issue and a flawed front office philosophy. It's not that our highly paid players aren't that good.

Take the Rams for example. They had a pretty talented roster that under Fisher, couldn't get out of its own way. Insert a new coach, sprinkle in a couple of key FAs, and presto they have one of the best rosters in the NFL and just made a SB.

You can't pay every player on the team as if he is the best in the nfl at his respective position. O.K. Lawrence is ONE of the best DE's currently in the nfl and he should be paid accordingly. Not the highest paid DE in the NFL by a wide margin. If you sign him to 20 to 23 million like he is asking, then he probably will still be the highest paid DE in the NFL in 2 years.

The Rams were beaten by the team that trades away their primadonnas and has a QB willing to take a smaller contract in order to win.

 

[Killerinstinct]

I haven't heard any such contract numbers. But he's worth top 5 DE money whatever that is.

I agree. Let's see if he signs for top 5 de money. Last year he was the highest paid de at 17 mil Now he wants 20 to 23 according to figures I have read.

 

[Sydla]

You can't pay every player on the team as if he is the best in the nfl at his respective position. O.K. Lawrence is ONE of the best DE's currently in the nfl and he should be paid accordingly. Not the highest paid DE in the NFL by a wide margin. If you sign him to 20 to 23 million like he is asking, then he probably will still be the highest paid DE in the NFL in 2 years.

The Rams were beaten by the team that trades away their primadonnas and has a QB willing to take a smaller contract in order to win.

But we have the space now to pay a guy like Lawrence. It's not like we are about to have to cut a bunch of good players to fit him in.

Plus where are you getting this $20-23MM price tag for Lawrence? He's going to likely get in the range of $100MM over 6 years, with anywhere from $50MM-60MM guaranteed. That would put him in line with what JJ Watt and Chandler Jones got. And it will be dwarfed in two years when Joey Bosa hits FA.

The Rams were beaten by a dynasty that is largely unique in the NFL because they have arguably the greatest coach in NFL history and the greatest QB in NFL history.

But it doesn't change the fact that the Rams had a really talented roster that sucked under a previous coach. But improved to an elite NFC team in two year with the right coach and better approach to roster building.

 

[Sydla]

I agree. Let's see if he signs for top 5 de money. Last year he was the highest paid de at 17 mil Now he wants 20 to 23 according to figures I have read.

Where have you read that?

And yes, he made $17MM last year but that was hardly out of line with what other DE got in one year. Ansah also made $17MM because he was tagged. Calais Campbell made $16MM ($15MM in base salary + $1MM option bonus).

 

[cern]

no matter what players are paid or overpaid, they can't overcome the intangible of great coaching. mcvay, goff, brockers, suh, and Donald, the last three coached by wade phillips, couldn't beat the greatest coach in the nfl. this is where the cowboys fail. we haven't had a great coach since jimmy left other than parcells visit. a great coach precludes a team from having to pay exorbitant salaries thinking players alone can win the big dance.

 

[Hawkeye0202]

Im gettin' DLaw and Amari done.
Dak next.
can't pay everybody and we will lose some...but if we can Im keepin DLaw,Coop and Dak.[/QUOT

Just my take but I'm 100% confidence Dak, Zeke, DLaw and Coop will get 2nd contracts from the Cowboys. Not sure if many noticed but one commonality with just about every original drafted Cowboy player getting the 2nd contract is at least one Pro Bowl. That's huge with Stephen.....