Let's talk fairly about Jeff Heath

[Sydla]

Curtis Riley had a good year - a breakout year for him, and he still had 10 fewer tackles than Heath. Reading plays and making tackles absolutely is a big part of the position, but even so, I never said tackles were a stand alone stat.

Nevertheless, tackles was not the only point of discussion I laid out. I talked about tackles to support the run defense AND the fact the team was one of the best at preventing deep throws. Those two elements are really the core of the job in a nutshell, and if a player can do those things well he is at least an average to solid safety.

As for tackles not making him a "really good safety", as you discussed with the Church analogy, I don't think I ever suggested Heath was a "really good safety", or, again, that tackles was the only criteria. Essentially all I've really expressed is that he is at least a solid player, and therefore replacing him isn't a desperate, must have to the exclusion of other needs type of situation. I'm all for an upgrade, but I think there are other positions that have a more urgent need.

Someone in this thread parroted your tackles stat and then also said he’s a really good safety. I should have been clearer and not made it seem like you said it yourself.

My bad.

And I disagree that it’s not a priority to upgrade his position. It should be along with DT and TE. Sure, maybe you could live with him starting if you build up the D around him.

 

[Runwildboys]

I cant forget the angle he tried to take against one team and the WR made him look absolutely foolish. I think it may have been Detroit or Seattle.

Thought you said you couldn't forget?

 

[phildadon86]

Thought you said you couldn't forget?

Well played sir.

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

Reserve players don't place 3rd in team tackles and they generally don't get turnovers.

They do though lol. All the time. Tackles aren’t a reflection of how good a safety is playing.

 

[Teague31]

He fairly sucks

 

[Boyz4Lyfe33]

This seems to be the opposite of what I asked for when I wrote the thread. If you have some reason and logic to go with your comments that would be helpful, but without that it just comes across as an emotional reaction without thinking it through. For example, if, as noted in the OP, Heath is the 3rd leading tackler on the team, and the team is one of the best in the NFL against deep passes, how does that translate into him being as bad as you say? To say he is the worst starting safety in the NFL (or even close to it) and have it mean anything, there has to be some explanation for this.

Thats fair so ill try. I dont have the stats and I could be wrong but Im sure he led the team or was close in missed tackles. His bad angles and lack awareness is glaring when you watch one of our games. Its borderline cringeworthy.. As far as being one of the best against deep passes, I wouldnt give him any credit for that. To me thats a scheme stat. Lack of turnovers in the secondary, communication problems, etc.. You cant possibly watch a Cowboys game and not notice how bad he is. He was a special teams and backup player for a reason. Ill never understand why we over value our own players so much.

 

[Paradox]

A lot of people say he's Bill Bates. I don't think he is. I think he's a much better Athlete then Bill ever was. A lot of people think that Heath is not very fast. In fact, he is very fast, especially for his size. For some reason, Heath missed a lot of tackles this year and what the reason is for that, I don't know. It's really a mystery to me.

I definitely saw him miss some shoulder tackles. I also remember a couple of people running through him. Kerryon Johnson just flattened him in the Lions game.

He also made some amazing plays and I think he's a clutch player. The better defense we have, the better he gets. He's evolved quite a lot as a player and he'll continue to get better. I'd also like to see him add 10-15 lbs. of muscle mass to go with that speed for next season.

 

[OmerV]

Thats fair so ill try. I dont have the stats and I could be wrong but Im sure he led the team or was close in missed tackles. His bad angles and lack awareness is glaring when you watch one of our games. Its borderline cringeworthy.. As far as being one of the best against deep passes, I wouldnt give him any credit for that. To me thats a scheme stat. Lack of turnovers in the secondary, communication problems, etc.. You cant possibly watch a Cowboys game and not notice how bad he is. He was a special teams and backup player for a reason. Ill never understand why we over value our own players so much.

I don't disagree that he can miss tackles, so to me that's a fair point to discuss. I suspect it's not as often as some think, otherwise he wouldn't put up the number of tackles he does, but he definitely can take some bad angles at times.

Lack of turnovers is a fair point to make as well, but that would also apply to all players in the secondary, and particularly to the CB's who have more opportunities to intercept passes.

As for the deep passes, I would at least partially disagree with you there. I can't say how much credit he deserves, but he does deserve at least some because schemes don't just play themselves. Players still have to make it work, and no scheme can relieve safeties of all responsibility for reading plays and making decisions on where their help is needed.

And I don't quite accept the argument that he was a ST and backup player for a reason, because it suggests that a player cannot learn and improve with experience, study and practice. I think being a backup and ST player for a few years suggests that he isn't likely to be a special, or top tier player, but I don't think it condemns him to having no possibility to ever start.

 

[nightrain]

I think most can agree Heath is not a top tier player, but outside that, opinions seem to range from being a solid starter to being terrible and some even suggest he may be the worst safety in the NFL.

We can fairly look at some flaws - sometimes he can take a bad angle to the ball carrier or receiver, and sometimes he fails to wrap up, and he isn't a big playmaker.

On the other hand, he was the 3rd leading tackler on the Cowboys behind LVE and Jaylon Smith, and only 6 teams gave up fewer deep passes than the Cowboys did.

So where does that leave us? To me it leaves us with a player who isn't above being upgraded, but who doesn't necessarily have to be upgraded, especially if doing so would prohibit upgrading positions that have a more urgent need.

I know some will disagree, but my goal is to have a reasonable, considered discussion and not one that is based on emotion and past impressions from when Heath was younger.

Heath is serviceable, a guy you can count on to get you through the injury of a starter and to play just about all units on special teams. He is not going to make the big play for you. Rely's completely on preparation with limited instincts. Physical ability is dampened by inability to react at game speed.

 

[QuincyCarterEra]

His high tackle totals are due to him being targeted in coverage so often. I forget the exact amount but from week 1-12 Byron was targeted around twice a game on average. That's a lot of targets to other DBs.

Another reason he had so many tackles? He played the most snaps of any safety(actually it's DB) in the league. 1250 snaps

Woods played center field for most of the season, and was the one limiting downfield plays.

But to answer the question that was presented:
I think Heath is getting paid exactly what he should. He's a middle of the pack backup safety that we have miscast as a starting safety.

 

[Sydla]

Frankly, while impossible, I’d love for them to grab Thomas and then also bring in a thumper at SS.

 

[OmerV]

His high tackle totals are due to him being targeted in coverage so often. I forget the exact amount but from week 1-12 Byron was targeted around twice a game on average. That's a lot of targets to other DBs.

Another reason he had so many tackles? He played the most snaps of any safety(actually it's DB) in the league. 1250 snaps

Woods played center field for most of the season, and was the one limiting downfield plays.

But to answer the question that was presented:
I think Heath is getting paid exactly what he should. He's a middle of the pack backup safety that we have miscast as a starting safety.

No, his high tackle totals are from supporting the run defense, and the reality is he gets targeted much less than CBs because safeties are often (not always) merely over the top help in pass coverage rather than having primary responsibility for a receiver every player, and at other times are asked to come up and play in a run support role.

In any case, think about that claim - if the high tackle totals were from him being targeted so much, then it's impressive that he gives up so few deep passes. Do you want to go with that?

Woods doesn't have sole responsibility for deep coverage, so let's not pretend that's the case. He may have a little more responsibility than Heath, but Heath is still part of it. No one safety can cover the entire field.

 

[buybuydandavis]

So where does that leave us? To me it leaves us with a player who isn't above being upgraded, but who doesn't necessarily have to be upgraded, especially if doing so would prohibit upgrading positions that have a more urgent need.

The problem for Heath is that they have always been passing him by for other players at FS. Heath is best at single high FS, where his recognition and straight line speed are leveraged, and worse at SS, where his lack of lateral agility and hip flexibility are a big liability.

Heath is to the safeties what Tyrone Crawford is to the dline, the guy they're always looking to replace with younger players, and in the meantime not put in the position where he can best shine, but made to fill the spot where we are weakest because he can.

He's got another year on his contract. As you say, he's presigned as that ideal cheap free agent who covers us so we don't have to reach in the draft.

But it's very likely we're targeting SS in the draft. Next year is the last year for Heath and Frazier. I could see a SS to go with Woods going as high as our first pick. SS and TE are the most likely spots to get an actual starter with our 2nd pick.

 

[buybuydandavis]

Frankly, while impossible, I’d love for them to grab Thomas and then also bring in a thumper at SS.

The problem for the Thomas hopefuls is that our real hole is at SS, not FS.

They seem to like Woods at FS. Heath is better at FS, but is at SS because Frazier doesn't cut it, and they prefer Woods to Heath at FS, just as they preferred Byron to Heath at FS before him.

Woods is our near future at FS. Our need is at SS. Heath is a bridge player at SS. Frazier is a thumper, but he just never caught on, and he's only got a year left. Time to bring in a new SS.

 

[AKATheRake]

It comes down to creating more turnovers on defense and better tackling to decrease YAC against us.

Safety is where we can improve in both of those area's, especially with the level of talent that will be available in this years FA market. I am not opposed to investing in both a FS (Earl Thomas) and if he doesn't get the franchise tag a SS (Landon Collins).

TE needs better talent as well and there are some good players in this draft that should be available in rounds 2-3. Jace Sternberger comes to mind. He can block and catch. Actually reminds me a lot of Jason Witten in his playing style. Tough but is also a bit better after the catch than Witten. So I think the draft is where we look for that position and Stephen Jones said that's where we will prioritize the TE position. I agree with that thinking.

DT has more depth on this team than most believe but I think that's a position where more talent can be entrenched. FA does not look like the best avenue for that position value wise so maybe with our 2nd or 3rd round pick we can grab one that we like.

I also think there's going to be some shuffling at WR. Amari Cooper and Michael Gallup are our 2 starters as they should be. Beasley is probably off in FA, Tavon Austin is also a FA but at the right price I would like to keep him because of his speed and return abilities. Allen Hurns is hurt, would be a cap savings of approx $5 million and only $1,250,000 dead cap. For what he produced those figures are not acceptable.

Allen Humphries from Tampa at 25 years old would be a worthy signing at those numbers, maybe even a bit more. He's a sure handed do it all slot receiver who also has punt return ability. We know what's inevitable for Terrance Williams.

 

[QuincyCarterEra]

Heath was 1st in snaps amongst safeties with 1250 right?

These safeties all had more tackles than Heath's 85:
Bethea- 121 tackles on 1122 snaps
Johnson- 119 on 1000
Adams- 115 on 1174
Bates- 111 on 1139
And 15 others

Heath is 20th in tackles amongst safeties despite being first in snaps

 

[QuincyCarterEra]

No, his high tackle totals are from supporting the run defense, and the reality is he gets targeted much less than CBs because safeties are often (not always) merely over the top help in pass coverage rather than having primary responsibility for a receiver every player, and at other times are asked to come up and play in a run support role.

In any case, think about that claim - if the high tackle totals were from him being targeted so much, then it's impressive that he gives up so few deep passes. Do you want to go with that?

Woods doesn't have sole responsibility for deep coverage, so let's not pretend that's the case. He may have a little more responsibility than Heath, but Heath is still part of it. No one safety can cover the entire field.

No, his high tackle totals are from having the highest amount of snaps in the league and him consistently allowing receptions. As I have pointed out.

And no again, I just gave you stats that Byron wasn't targeted. But we still were having pass attempts against us so it's distributed to the other DBs in coverage, including Heath. And Box safeties in our scheme almost always have a primary responsibility in coverage, I think you know this. Idk why you're claiming the opposite.

 

[QuincyCarterEra]

No, his high tackle totals are from supporting the run defense, and the reality is he gets targeted much less than CBs because safeties are often (not always) merely over the top help in pass coverage rather than having primary responsibility for a receiver every player, and at other times are asked to come up and play in a run support role.

In any case, think about that claim - if the high tackle totals were from him being targeted so much, then it's impressive that he gives up so few deep passes. Do you want to go with that?

Woods doesn't have sole responsibility for deep coverage, so let's not pretend that's the case. He may have a little more responsibility than Heath, but Heath is still part of it. No one safety can cover the entire field.

Let's go another way. Are you thinking Heath has league average tackles amongst safeties because he's a good tackler?

 

[Beaker42]

I think most can agree Heath is not a top tier player, but outside that, opinions seem to range from being a solid starter to being terrible and some even suggest he may be the worst safety in the NFL.

We can fairly look at some flaws - sometimes he can take a bad angle to the ball carrier or receiver, and sometimes he fails to wrap up, and he isn't a big playmaker.

On the other hand, he was the 3rd leading tackler on the Cowboys behind LVE and Jaylon Smith, and only 6 teams gave up fewer deep passes than the Cowboys did.

So where does that leave us? To me it leaves us with a player who isn't above being upgraded, but who doesn't necessarily have to be upgraded, especially if doing so would prohibit upgrading positions that have a more urgent need.

I know some will disagree, but my goal is to have a reasonable, considered discussion and not one that is based on emotion and past impressions from when Heath was younger.

Heath misses tackles like a fat kid misses cake. He sucks and needs to go.

 

[Beaker42]

Here’s my take.

Our front office almost criminally underrates how important top level safety play is, to having a high level defense.

Due to the FO’s unwillingness to invest basically anything into the safety position, it has placed an unnecessary glass ceiling on how good the overall defense can be.

Jeff Heath is a back-up, sub package level player. Nothing wrong with that. You need guys like Jeff Heath on a team.

But the defense could become so much better, if the front office actually prioritized getting a high quality safety to play for us.

I’m hoping that changes this off season and they sign Earl Thomas. But we shall see.

Put Earl Thomas or Landon Collins back there and this defense gets better.