Little update on Pacman

[zrinkill]

Completely irrelevant to the conversation...

:laugh2: Of course you would think so huh? As far as your silly Danny trade comparison ...... the Market value on Pacman is nearly non existent.

Sorry if your Commander experience has altered your market evaluation skills ..... blame your owner.

 

[firehawk350]

You dont remember correctly. There was a bomus due later the month that he was traded and no cash exchanged. Try again.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/20/AR2007032001919.html

Its pretty sad that in your troll attempts you cant even keep up with your own team.

You're right. Either way, it is something they can do (the Titans). They could convert part of the signing bonus to a roster bonus and sell it that way. Of course pacman would have to sign off on it, but I think he'd be game for that.

I got mixed up apparently, I remember that clause, basically it was guaranteed (if it wasn't paid out, some of the later salaries automatically were guaranteed) so I just got it confused in my head, given it was a year ago.

 

[zrinkill]

Its pretty sad that in your troll attempts you cant even keep up with your own team.

That happens a lot with these Commander trolls.

 

[firehawk350]

You have no understanding of how markets work. There is no inherent worth, its determined by the market. Unless the league starts price fixing you have no basis for saying so little. it is what it is.

Clearly you have no understanding of how capitalism works. Value is perception. If we have divurgent views on how much something is worth, then the deal won't get done. Whining about how the Titans value their player more than you value the same player is ********. Or they could just be posturing, again a completely legit tactic. None of this is the Titans being stupid or a-holes, it's just trying to gain as much as possible. Jerry should just back down from the table and let them try to get what he was offering from somebody else. They'll see that they overvalue their player and be forced to concede to Jerry or keep their player.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You're right. Either way, it is something they can do (the Titans). They could convert part of the signing bonus to a roster bonus and sell it that way. Of course pacman would have to sign off on it, but I think he'd be game for that.

I got mixed up apparently, I remember that clause, basically it was guaranteed (if it wasn't paid out, some of the later salaries automatically were guaranteed) so I just got it confused in my head, given it was a year ago.

And like I sad they could also ask for a South African diamond mine. Its still stupid to ask for it.

They are coming from the vantage point of what they want and not from what they can get. Once they realize that this deal will get done. Fisher sealed their fate when he said that Jones was going to have to look for a new home. That toasted their leverage.

Like Kevin Kiley was saying. It was the act of an idiot and the actions of this franchise in these negotiations are laughable.

 

[firehawk350]

:laugh2: Of course you would think so huh? As far as your silly Danny trade comparison ...... the Market value on Pacman is nearly non existent.

Sorry if your Commander experience has altered your market evaluation skills ..... blame your owner.

I don't care how much pacman is worth, all I noticed is a running theme around here that the Titans should be overly pleased that they get anything at all for him when that's not how it works.

FTR, if it was my call, I'd offer a a conditional 3rd next year. If he gets reinstated and doesn't get suspended next year, they get a third. If he doesn't get reinstated or just gets suspended next year, they get a 5th.

 

[SacredStar]

As a matter of fact, I know a bunch of guys here in skins land that think we should throw our hat in there. Why we aren't even investigating the option is beyond me.

The reason for that is simple.

Pacman doesn't want to be a Commander. He wants to be a Cowboy.

Why would he want to go a city like DC that has the nations highest crime rate when he is trying to clean his reputation up?

 

[Hostile]

I don't care how much pacman is worth, all I noticed is a running theme around here that the Titans should be overly pleased that they get anything at all for him when that's not how it works.

FTR, if it was my call, I'd offer a a conditional 3rd next year. If he gets reinstated and doesn't get suspended next year, they get a third. If he doesn't get reinstated or just gets suspended next year, they get a 5th.

I agree with that thinking. Same as if we can trade Akin Ayodele and get anything in return as opposed to outright releasing him. For me, that is how it works.

 

[firehawk350]

And like I sad they could also ask for a South African diamond mine. Its still stupid to ask for it.

They are coming from the vantage point of what they want and not from what they can get. Once they realize that this deal will get done. Fisher sealed their fate when he said that Jones was going to have to look for a new home. That toasted their leverage.

Like Kevin Kiley was saying. It was the act of an idiot and the actions of this franchise in these negotiations are laughable.

Are you familiar with the idea of asking for more than what you actually want so you actually concede with what you want? Basically, if I want $12000 for my car, I set the price at $13500 because I know in negotiations nobody pays for what you ask, you always end out a bit lower. The titans start by asking for a conditional 3rd. Jerry counters with a 5th and a player. Then they say, fine a 5th and that player, but we want you to buy out part of the contract (insert amount). It's all part of the plan, if the market is non-existant, then Jerry should just leave the table and let them think over what Pacman is worth.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Clearly you have no understanding of how capitalism works. Value is perception. If we have divurgent views on how much something is worth, then the deal won't get done. Whining about how the Titans value their player more than you value the same player is ********. Or they could just be posturing, again a completely legit tactic. None of this is the Titans being stupid or a-holes, it's just trying to gain as much as possible. Jerry should just back down from the table and let them try to get what he was offering from somebody else. They'll see that they overvalue their player and be forced to concede to Jerry or keep their player.

Youre going to try and tell me that value is perception and say that I dont know understand how market economies work?

Im sorry all that indicates is your completel ack of knowledge and understanding. i really cannot say any more than that.

One of the basic tenets of capitalism is that there is no inherent value and the market forces determine price. youre right if two people dont agree on what the 'value' is then the deal doesnt get done but does not make the Titans anything other than stupid.

They are the ones trying to deal Jones. When you do that you take the best price you can get not the price that you want. Now the two can be the same but not necessarily. Overvaluing your product and sitting on it getting nothing is stupid.

Whats even more stupid is making these outlandish requests public. There only hope is to stir up other teams interest and by saying that they want two picks AND cash they basically have guaranteed that they will get noone else to bid. That is also monumentally stupid.

The Titans have mismanaged this from the beginning from the time Fisher opened his trap in the first place. Now they have guaranteed that no one else will get involved.

What they should have done is say the Cowboys are only offering a 7th round pick which isnt enough for us and wait and see if anyone else wants to outbid us. instead they set the bar so high that no one else is going to bite.

On a final note I noticed that you and others around ES think its a good idea to enter the trade talks in an effort to drive up the price with no real intention of acquiring the player in question. That is called negotiating in bad faith and is universally viewed as unethical.

At least Snyder isnt that ignorant.

 

[firehawk350]

The reason for that is simple.

Pacman doesn't want to be a Commander. He wants to be a Cowboy.

Why would he want to go a city like DC that has the nations highest crime rate when he is trying to clean his reputation up?

Pacman will go where the Titans send him, I don't think there is much of a choice. He could hold out and not play, but would you for that much money? And at that point, if he did want to play, no club could (under league rules) touch him until the Commanders either release or trade him. Them the rules.

 

[Redball Express]

..being refunded is like Atlanta with Vick and his contract, etc.

They don't have anything to do with each other.

There is the trade part which is strictly b/w the teams to resolve.

Then if the Titan's want to pursue a grievence with Pacman about his bonus rebate, that is a separate issue.

After the trade, they can file with the NFLPA and proceed.

These are separate issues and asking Dallas to step up and deal with an issue that contracturally wasn't any of their responsibility is slanderous.

If I was Pacman, if this continues to be the posture of the Titans, where they are asking for unrelated consideration from the Cowboys to make this trade, I'd sue the Titans and the NFL for conspiracy to prevent him from making a living and conspiring in bad faith to allow him to find a team willing to trade and continue his career.

The Titans are totally out of line for now adding this wanting Dallas to pay back Pacman's bonus. They are dealing in bad faith with the player and the possible trading team, Dallas. If I was Jerry Jones and Dallas, I'd make the Titans aware that their latest move is highly questionable and possibly prejudicial and not acceptable.

Their terms for this trade being either draft picks and/or players is reasonable. Adding monitary issues they committed to and not Dallas and making them contingent on the trade is letigious.

There is a difference b/w being contrite and being just steamrolled here. Pacman and his attorney and the NFLPA need to start building a file on how this is supposed trade and his suspention are being conducted.

Both the NFL and Goodell's posturing and now the Titan's themselves are starting to look like vindictive antagonists here and messing with Pacman's rights not only as a player, but as an individual.

For the sake of all concerned, Dallas should warn the Titans to either do the deal on the table, amend it to both parties satisfaction and release all claims about Pacman's salary bonuses as being a part of any trade

or

..face complaints from Dallas for dealing in bad faith, lawsuits from Pacman and the NFLPA about injuring his rights and who knows whatelse.

Pacman has nothing to lose at this point. Unless he just wants to wait it all out and watch the NFL and the Titans end his career entirely.

Pacman has complied in every way with what he has been asked to do. Now adding more and more contingencies to him being able to get out from underneath his situation by these added demands from the Titans begins to look like Pacman is being conspired against.

Those are serious issues when they start to become clear that it maybe happening.

Once April 10th, the anniversary of his 1 yr. suspension comes and goes, if things aren't resolved..it might escalate as things go along.

We'll see.

:starspin ReDBaLL ExPreSS:starspin

 

[zrinkill]

Pacman will go where the Titans send him, I don't think there is much of a choice. He could hold out and not play, but would you for that much money? And at that point, if he did want to play, no club could (under league rules) touch him until the Commanders either release or trade him. Them the rules.

What you fail to understand is that Pacman saying he wants to be a Cowboy drops his market value even more ....

Its like you taking your wife to buy a car and she says how much she loves the car in front of the salesman.

 

[Mash]

From what I read on the Titans board.....

Bidwell...(owner of the Titans) has mentioned that he will eat the contract and keep Pacman on the team.....he will not let him go for peanuts....especially to Dallas who we all know the owner hates.

IMHO.....I dont think the Titans are in a must trade Pac situation......I could easily see Pacman back with the Titans........players liked Pacman and when he was there....he worked hard and was a difference maker.....

That being said....if I was Dallas.....I would walk away.....let the Titans take the chance on him.....one more altercation and Pacman is suspended again...and the Titans get nothing in return and still take the cap hit on his signing bonus.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Are you familiar with the idea of asking for more than what you actually want so you actually concede with what you want? Basically, if I want $12000 for my car, I set the price at $13500 because I know in negotiations nobody pays for what you ask, you always end out a bit lower. The titans start by asking for a conditional 3rd. Jerry counters with a 5th and a player. Then they say, fine a 5th and that player, but we want you to buy out part of the contract (insert amount). It's all part of the plan, if the market is non-existant, then Jerry should just leave the table and let them think over what Pacman is worth.

I think the more relivant question is, Are you familiar with "Take it or leave it?"

Not every deal is ment to be made. The Titans have the option to just say no and walk away. The Cowboys have the option to offer a deal that is to there advantage as they are in a position of leverage, as opposed to overspending for a player who is not worth what the Titans are asking. It's the difference between doing smart business and doing a deal of presidence, such as the one done for Archuleta. This may seem a bit harsh to you but I'm fairly confident that if Washington had that deal to do over again, they would probably have walked away.

 

[firehawk350]

Youre going to try and tell me that value is perception and say that I dont know understand how market economies work?

Im sorry all that indicates is your completel ack of knowledge and understanding. i really cannot say any more than that.

Wow, I guess I'm so lucky that such a successful business man such as yourself will come down out of your corner office to talk market with me. I do fine for myself, I know how the market works...

One of the basic tenets of capitalism is that there is no inherent value and the market forces determine price. youre right if two people dont agree on what the 'value' is then the deal doesnt get done but does not make the Titans anything other than stupid.

And the market forces are... SUPPLY AND DEMAND!!! YAY third grade education! And supply and demand are all based on perception... A Ferrari is perceived to be a very nice car, so therefore it's demand is high. Perception drives demand. You can't quantify the demand for a particular thing. You produce the same amount of Honda Accords and Ferraris and the accords will still go for considerably less because it isn't perceived as well.

They are the ones trying to deal Jones. When you do that you take the best price you can get not the price that you want. Now the two can be the same but not necessarily. Overvaluing your product and sitting on it getting nothing is stupid.

You could also use Pacman anyways. Yes, they said they wouldn't but that is never binding, now is it? If your idea was right, why would Jerry offer anything but a 7th rounder? It's one more pick than they have already and might as well get something since the alternative is nothing? The answer is they know have exclusive rights to Pacman is worth more than just the lowest offer Jerry could possibly tender. Obviously, they are right since Jerry offered considerably more than just a 7th rounder.

Whats even more stupid is making these outlandish requests public. There only hope is to stir up other teams interest and by saying that they want two picks AND cash they basically have guaranteed that they will get noone else to bid. That is also monumentally stupid.

We aren't in those talks, they could end up getting some money from Jerry, or they could be willing to concede they won't but think the money is a good way to get Jerry to concede something else. Regardless, I'm sure they have other ways of getting the word to team owners other than releasing it to the public. If they wanted to gauge interest, I'm sure they can find a way that doesn't broadcast it to the public.

The Titans have mismanaged this from the beginning from the time Fisher opened his trap in the first place. Now they have guaranteed that no one else will get involved.

What they should have done is say the Cowboys are only offering a 7th round pick which isnt enough for us and wait and see if anyone else wants to outbid us. instead they set the bar so high that no one else is going to bite.

On a final note I noticed that you and others around ES think its a good idea to enter the trade talks in an effort to drive up the price with no real intention of acquiring the player in question. That is called negotiating in bad faith and is universally viewed as unethical.

At least Snyder isnt that ignorant.

Fisher doesn't write the checks but you are right, he should have not said anything. Either way, if he came back out and said that they (he and pacman) had a long conversation and he is willing to give him another shot then the damage is all but undone. Not exactly irrepairable.

The cowboys are still biting (so obviously his strategy is working) and your strategy would be lucky to net them a 6th. You put your Ferrari up for sale for 12k (when it books for 200K) you sure as hell aren't going to get 200k. Of course, if you set it for 250k, you aren't going to get anything. You have to set it at slightly above market and then bid down to market value.

I actually want the Skins to put their hat in there because I think it's a steal. I've already put what I think is a good deal so take what you will. Either way, Capt Jack Sparrow says the only thing that matters is what a man can do, and what a man can't do. The real risk the Skins run (in ES' scenario) is actually winning the bid and then having to back down and getting a rep around the league as somebody who doesn't actually follow through with their offers, which of course in that tight of a circle is virtual suicide.

 

[DBoys]

..being refunded is like Atlanta with Vick and his contract, etc.

They don't have anything to do with each other.

There is the trade part which is strictly b/w the teams to resolve.

Then if the Titan's want to pursue a grievence with Pacman about his bonus rebate, that is a separate issue.

After the trade, they can file with the NFLPA and proceed.

These are separate issues and asking Dallas to step up and deal with an issue that contracturally wasn't any of their responsibility is slanderous.

If I was Pacman, if this continues to be the posture of the Titans, where they are asking for unrelated consideration from the Cowboys to make this trade, I'd sue the Titans and the NFL for conspiracy to prevent him from making a living and conspiring in bad faith to allow him to find a team willing to trade and continue his career.

The Titans are totally out of line for now adding this wanting Dallas to pay back Pacman's bonus. They are dealing in bad faith with the player and the possible trading team, Dallas. If I was Jerry Jones and Dallas, I'd make the Titans aware that their latest move is highly questionable and possibly prejudicial and not acceptable.

Their terms for this trade being either draft picks and/or players is reasonable. Adding monitary issues they committed to and not Dallas and making them contingent on the trade is letigious.

There is a difference b/w being contrite and being just steamrolled here. Pacman and his attorney and the NFLPA need to start building a file on how this is supposed trade and his suspention are being conducted.

Both the NFL and Goodell's posturing and now the Titan's themselves are starting to look like vindictive antagonists here and messing with Pacman's rights not only as a player, but as an individual.

For the sake of all concerned, Dallas should warn the Titans to either do the deal on the table, amend it to both parties satisfaction and release all claims about Pacman's salary bonuses as being a part of any trade

or

..face complaints from Dallas for dealing in bad faith, lawsuits from Pacman and the NFLPA about injuring his rights and who knows whatelse.

Pacman has nothing to lose at this point. Unless he just wants to wait it all out and watch the NFL and the Titans end his career entirely.

Pacman has complied in every way with what he has been asked to do. Now adding more and more contingencies to him being able to get out from underneath his situation by these added demands from the Titans begins to look like Pacman is being conspired against.

Those are serious issues when they start to become clear that it maybe happening.

Once April 10th, the anniversary of his 1 yr. suspension comes and goes, if things aren't resolved..it might escalate as things go along.

We'll see.

:starspin ReDBaLL ExPreSS:starspin

Great Post Redball

From what I read on the Titans board.....

Bidwell...(owner of the Titans) has mentioned that he will eat the contract and keep Pacman on the team.....he will not let him go for peanuts....especially to Dallas who we all know the owner hates.

IMHO.....I dont think the Titans are in a must trade Pac situation......I could easily see Pacman back with the Titans........players liked Pacman and when he was there....he worked hard and was a difference maker.....

That being said....if I was Dallas.....I would walk away.....let the Titans take the chance on him.....one more altercation and Pacman is suspended again...and the Titans get nothing in return and still take the cap hit on his signing bonus.

I agree Mash. This whole thing sounds like a personal catfight and it is time to walk away. If Pacman gets in trouble again it will be a huge mistake on the Titans part keeping him.

 

[firehawk350]

I think the more relivant question is, Are you familiar with "Take it or leave it?"

Not every deal is ment to be made. The Titans have the option to just say no and walk away. The Cowboys have the option to offer a deal that is to there advantage as they are in a position of leverage, as opposed to overspending for a player who is not worth what the Titans are asking. It's the difference between doing smart business and doing a deal of presidence, such as the one done for Archuleta. This may seem a bit harsh to you but I'm fairly confident that if Washington had that deal to do over again, they would probably have walked away.

That's fine. I can see that and my point isn't for people like you who understand that the Cowboys aren't some charitious organization just trying to help out the poor lil titans who got stuck in a mess. The titans have something the cowboys want and are seeking to get what they believe to be fair compensation for it. If Jones does end up making the deal, obviously everyone is happy with the compensation and life goes on. If it doesn't then clearly there are some divurgent views. It's the way just about every single transaction in a free market economy happens. It's not charity.

 

[firehawk350]

From what I read on the Titans board.....

Bidwell...(owner of the Titans) has mentioned that he will eat the contract and keep Pacman on the team.....he will not let him go for peanuts....especially to Dallas who we all know the owner hates.

IMHO.....I dont think the Titans are in a must trade Pac situation......I could easily see Pacman back with the Titans........players liked Pacman and when he was there....he worked hard and was a difference maker.....

That being said....if I was Dallas.....I would walk away.....let the Titans take the chance on him.....one more altercation and Pacman is suspended again...and the Titans get nothing in return and still take the cap hit on his signing bonus.

Good post. I agree, I think Jerry needs to back away and let them make their decision.

As for Redball's post, the Titans have to pay Pacman if he is on their roster. If he isn't, then anybody is free to sign him without compensation to the Titans. It's a simple yes-no, on-off type of thing. If he's on the roster, you have to pay him the money. He isn't guaranteed playing time or whether or not he's on the active roster, so if the Titans want to keep him and let him rot for the next three years, he can complain all he wants but they aren't legally obligated to trade or cut him at that point. If he's not on the roster, he's not making the money but per league rules, any team can bid for his services.

Likewise, for your lawsuit idea, if he's on the roster, he's making a living and has no basis of a lawsuit in the fact that he's paid. If he's cut (ie, not being paid) and the Titans interfere with negotiations with other clubs, then you've got a point. Either way, as of right now he is legally employed so they aren't blocking him from making a living.

 

[zrinkill]

That's fine. I can see that and my point isn't for people like you who understand that the Cowboys aren't some charitious organization just trying to help out the poor lil titans who got stuck in a mess. It's not charity.

I do not believe anyone said it was Charity. I think the only thing that has been said is that the Titans are lucky anyone is interested in trading for him instead of waiting for them to cut him.

I think you are just trying to twist this in a way to belittle Cowboys fans ..... but with our teams history, its not gonna work.


Cowboys Commanders "Rivalry"
Nov 1997 - Dec 2007
The Decade of Destruction
Cowboy Wins 16
Commander Wins 5