Little update on Pacman

[ABQCOWBOY]

That's fine. I can see that and my point isn't for people like you who understand that the Cowboys aren't some charitious organization just trying to help out the poor lil titans who got stuck in a mess. The titans have something the cowboys want and are seeking to get what they believe to be fair compensation for it. If Jones does end up making the deal, obviously everyone is happy with the compensation and life goes on. If it doesn't then clearly there are some divurgent views. It's the way just about every single transaction in a free market economy happens. It's not charity.

I agree with this. However, you are on a Cowboy board and the views on this situation are always going to be from a decideldly Pro Cowboy, point of view.

If I were to go over to Extreme and post views on how Danny has done business over the last several years. I would hardly expect to get a Grass Roots Support effort in place. Our fans, and hopefully, our organization are interested in Jones, only if it is at the right price. As a Cowboy fan, I am very happy to see that most of the fans on this board are in support of signing PacMan only if it is a good deal for the team. Personally, I am not in favor of it at any price but I am in the minority. Majority rules and I am for that.

 

[firehawk350]

What you fail to understand is that Pacman saying he wants to be a Cowboy drops his market value even more ....

Its like you taking your wife to buy a car and she says how much she loves the car in front of the salesman.

It doesn't matter what pacman wants in this case and either way both owners have to know that Pacman is just posturing in case he ends up in Dallas. I bet he'd say the same things about the Cardinals if it looked like he was going to end up there.

If I was about to be signed by the Cowboys, I would say the same thing, but what I really meant was, I would be excited to play football for hundreds of thousands of dollars a year (maybe millions).

The car thing doesn't really hold water because I'm not buying the wife. It would be different if Stephen Jones came out and said, man, we really want pacman over here, we need to get the deal DONE! That would of course raise the value, not drop it. In this case, the tradeable commodity wants to go to the buyer, and I could care less what the car wanted.

 

[JerryFan]

File a grievance for what? They gave the man's agent permission to seek a trade. The man himself became vocal about playing in Dallas. Dallas did not pursue him until he was officially on the market.

I don't get how they have been wronged. Because they don't like the offer? Then don't take it.

I think they don't like the offer and nobody else wants any part of Adam Jones. Everyone knows Tennessee wants no part of him, so it's not like Dallas is going to give you anything. Add to that the only reason Dallas wants anything to do with Adam is because there is very little risk involved and it makes ZERO sense to give them money, even one 4th round pick let a lone 2 and several million. Funny guys those Titans are.

 

[burmafrd]

The titans upped the anti and then lied about it. First it was just a pick=there was no mention of a second pick or any cash involved. They loook really stupid and will look even worse if Jerrah walks away. No one else is interested enough to discuss picks and NO one beleives that Pacman will be a titan next year.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Wow, I guess I'm so lucky that such a successful business man such as yourself will come down out of your corner office to talk market with me. I do fine for myself, I know how the market works...



And the market forces are... SUPPLY AND DEMAND!!! YAY third grade education! And supply and demand are all based on perception... A Ferrari is perceived to be a very nice car, so therefore it's demand is high. Perception drives demand. You can't quantify the demand for a particular thing. You produce the same amount of Honda Accords and Ferraris and the accords will still go for considerably less because it isn't perceived as well.



You could also use Pacman anyways. Yes, they said they wouldn't but that is never binding, now is it? If your idea was right, why would Jerry offer anything but a 7th rounder? It's one more pick than they have already and might as well get something since the alternative is nothing? The answer is they know have exclusive rights to Pacman is worth more than just the lowest offer Jerry could possibly tender. Obviously, they are right since Jerry offered considerably more than just a 7th rounder.



We aren't in those talks, they could end up getting some money from Jerry, or they could be willing to concede they won't but think the money is a good way to get Jerry to concede something else. Regardless, I'm sure they have other ways of getting the word to team owners other than releasing it to the public. If they wanted to gauge interest, I'm sure they can find a way that doesn't broadcast it to the public.



Fisher doesn't write the checks but you are right, he should have not said anything. Either way, if he came back out and said that they (he and pacman) had a long conversation and he is willing to give him another shot then the damage is all but undone. Not exactly irrepairable.

The cowboys are still biting (so obviously his strategy is working) and your strategy would be lucky to net them a 6th. You put your Ferrari up for sale for 12k (when it books for 200K) you sure as hell aren't going to get 200k. Of course, if you set it for 250k, you aren't going to get anything. You have to set it at slightly above market and then bid down to market value.

I actually want the Skins to put their hat in there because I think it's a steal. I've already put what I think is a good deal so take what you will. Either way, Capt Jack Sparrow says the only thing that matters is what a man can do, and what a man can't do. The real risk the Skins run (in ES' scenario) is actually winning the bid and then having to back down and getting a rep around the league as somebody who doesn't actually follow through with their offers, which of course in that tight of a circle is virtual suicide.

I am not a business man but I have the capability to remember things I learned in entry level economics courses which you have no idea about. You can talk about a third grade education if you want to but the fact you cannot remember things that are taught to 8 year olds is an indictment of you.

Youre right this should be elementary and the fact you are so completely wrong is laughable.

Demand is determined by income, population, reciprocal goods, personal need, personal taste etc. Perception is not one of the criteria. Now granted this is on a macro level but the model still holds.

Now in a normal circumstance you would talk of supply as being variable based on price of resource, government policies etc but in this case there is only one Pacman Jones so it is not variable and thus fixed.

Tennessee is trying to sell what they have. They are not going to keep him as if they do they will have a malcontented Pacman Jones on their hands. There are only three options for them.

1) They can cut him and get nothing.
2) They can take what we give them
3) Another team comes in and drives the price up.

Obviously they are hoping that 3 comes about but they have performed like idiots.

Your Ferrarri analogy is stupid and you need to quit making it. The price for Ferrarris is high because there is a MULTITUDE of very wealthy people that want them that have very high incomes coupled with a very low supply of the cars.

A better analogy would be an auction where a Ferrari is put up for sale and we are the only people in the room. Pacman Jones has been put up for bid and we've bid low round draft choice. Following has been dead silence and Tennessee is waiting for this to change.

If we are bidding 6th round draft choice then yes we are doing them a very big favor becasue at the end of the day we could stick to the lowest possible bid and just wait them out.

 

[firehawk350]

I do not believe anyone said it was Charity. I think the only thing that has been said is that the Titans are lucky anyone is interested in trading for him instead of waiting for them to cut him.

I think you are just trying to twist this in a way to belittle Cowboys fans ..... but with our teams history, its not gonna work.

I've actually agreed with a couple of posters and a couple of guys who seem to understand the idea behind a free market. You, however, have no idea and only seem to be able to post Commanders SUCKZ posts and we're trying to have real discourse on Pacman's value and trade discussions. Your stupid attempts at provoking a reaction that would get every cowboy fan on your side by making me comment on a cowboys vs. skins rivalry item is ********. The Skins don't belong in this conversation, you keep trying to interject them. I only brought up the skins to mention buying out contracts and saying I wouldn't mind if Pacman would end up on the Skins roster.

Cowboys Commanders "Rivalry"
Nov 1997 - Dec 2007
The Decade of Destruction
Cowboy Wins 16
Commander Wins 5

*yawn* this has to do with Pacman how? Thought so...

I agree with this. However, you are on a Cowboy board and the views on this situation are always going to be from a decideldly Pro Cowboy, point of view.

Which is fine but I don't care where you are, somebody needs to tell you that your view (not yours in particular, but some people actually believe that the Cowboys are just being nice and the Titans are spitting in their face) isn't anywhere close to reality otherwise nothing constructive will ever come from it. For the most part I try to not comment on the rah-rah threads where you guys are saying how awesome you will be next year because this is, after all, your territory and it's pretty standard for most forums.

If I were to go over to Extreme and post views on how Danny has done business over the last several years. I would hardly expect to get a Grass Roots Support effort in place. Our fans, and hopefully, our organization are interested in Jones, only if it is at the right price. As a Cowboy fan, I am very happy to see that most of the fans on this board are in support of signing PacMan only if it is a good deal for the team. Personally, I am not in favor of it at any price but I am in the minority. Majority rules and I am for that.

Of course not, I don't particularly like ES because they are overly homeristic and mob rules and everything. Go over to Hailredskins.com and you'll get quite a different POV. Either way, I didn't post a criticism of Jerry at all in this thread, rather calling out those who think the Cowboys are being super-awesome by even talking to the Titans about Pacman and the Titans are spitting in their faces.

 

[zeromaster]

Reference the Archuleta trade (washington to chicago) for precedent, as I have mentioned a couple of times so far. IF I remember correctly, it was Arch for a 5th and $5M contract buyout. Basically, they took on $5M of the dead cap hit and parted with a 5th for Arch.

Using the Commanders strategy for handling player acquisitions (and bailing out of them) is flawed from the get-go.

 

[firehawk350]

I am not a business man but I have the capability to remember things I learned in entry level economics courses which you have no idea about. You can talk about a third grade education if you want to but the fact you cannot remember things that are taught to 8 year olds is an indictment of you.

Youre right this should be elementary and the fact you are so completely wrong is laughable.

Demand is determined by income, population, reciprocal goods, personal need, personal taste etc. Perception is not one of the criteria. Now granted this is on a macro level but the model still holds.

Perception plays A LOT into all those factors, otherwise, why market so much? Are you saying that your perception doesn't play into your personal tastes? Speaking of tastes, do you know that there are studies that show a wine served in a certian setting almost invariably gets a higher rating (is received better) than one served in a "lower class" setting? How about realty? Isn't that driven mostly by perception? Personal need??? All you really need is food, water and shelter. You will go broke trying to market to somebody's needs. Eat rice, you won't die of starvation! By population, do you mean demographic?

Now in a normal circumstance you would talk of supply as being variable based on price of resource, government policies etc but in this case there is only one Pacman Jones so it is not variable and thus fixed.

Tennessee is trying to sell what they have. They are not going to keep him as if they do they will have a malcontented Pacman Jones on their hands. There are only three options for them.

1) They can cut him and get nothing.
2) They can take what we give them
3) Another team comes in and drives the price up.

Obviously they are hoping that 3 comes about but they have performed like idiots.

Labor is a bit different from demand as there is always only one of that person. Better to examine how skilled that labor is. Obviously, a construction worker (no offense to any of those in the business) is easily replaceable as there are millions of people who can do construction. A top 5/10 CB is obviously only replaceable by 10 other people. That determines demand. Of course, we have a bit of a unique situation as Pacman may not be able to use his skills because of off the field issues or may be a detriment to the team in general so that of course drives the price as well. But going back to perception, wouldn't a lot of his value be based on how well he is perceived to have played? If the Boys think he is a top 10 CB and the Titans think he is a top 5, you are going to have a different idea of how much he's worth.

Either way, you missed option 4 and that is not cut him and play him. They have nothing to really lose as they could cut him after his suspension. If those were the only 3 options, why is Jerry budging at all on his proposal? Are you saying you are a better businessman than Jerry?

Your Ferrarri analogy is stupid and you need to quit making it. The price for Ferrarris is high because there is a MULTITUDE of very wealthy people that want them that have very high incomes coupled with a very low supply of the cars.

A better analogy would be an auction where a Ferrari is put up for sale and we are the only people in the room. Pacman Jones has been put up for bid and we've bid low round draft choice. Following has been dead silence and Tennessee is waiting for this to change.

That analogy is stupid too. There is no good analogy since it's such a unique situation, it would be like the Falcons trying to trade Vick if he gets out on good behavior. There is no precedent to concretely determine the value.

Either way, like I said already, we think there is dead silence but who knows what's going on in the league circles up high. Even if there is dead silence, what makes you think the Titans brass isn't up there debating on the pros and cons of deal. They aren't going to give away a player that may stay clean and be a productive team player if they don't think the Cowboys are offering fair compensation. You keep forgetting they can always keep him around.

If we are bidding 6th round draft choice then yes we are doing them a very big favor becasue at the end of the day we could stick to the lowest possible bid and just wait them out.

I somehow doubt that. How many times have organizations said, well, we know we only have to trade you a 7th, but because we are nice and like your uniforms so damn much, here's a 5th and our starting ILB, or our 1st rounder from 06... Gee golly, you guys sure are swell.

 

[firehawk350]

Using the Commanders strategy for handling player acquisitions (and bailing out of them) is flawed from the get-go.

He asked for a precedent...

 

[zeromaster]

From what I read on the Titans board.....

Bidwell...(owner of the Titans) has mentioned that he will eat the contract and keep Pacman on the team.....he will not let him go for peanuts....especially to Dallas who we all know the owner hates.

Um, Bidwill owns the Cardinals. Adams owns the Titans. Unless there was a massive paradigm shift somewhere.

What they have in common is that both of them have a long way to go as owners. Adams also has one of the worst weaves ever.

 

[zeromaster]

He asked for a precedent...

Yes, and quite the precedent it was...

 

[Stash]

Given that both Jones and the Titans have said that he's done in Tennessee, this whole 'keeping him' stuff is a sad attempt at backtracking.

If they want to keep him, let them.

Tell the league you've re-thought things and he's off the market.

No?

Well then they're liars, desperately trying to erase some foolish comments made by the head coach.

I'd like to see a quote where someone said the Cowboys were doing the Titans a favor and they should be happy with whatever they get.

Sounds more like sour grapes from an opposing fan who wished his team was in the mix and hates the thought of 'the enemy' getting better.

The fact is that the Titans can ask for whatever they want - as outrageous as it may be.

And the Cowboys have the right to walk away from the deal.

And we have the right to criticize the Titans for what we feel to be unreasonable demands.

 

[firehawk350]

Either way, if you think the Skins are the worst team in the league at trading (you are delusion or uninformed if any answer other than the Raiders is given) then you'd want to jump all over this deal. You'd be the Bears and the Titans would be the skins (roughly).

 

[zrinkill]

I've actually agreed with a couple of posters and a couple of guys who seem to understand the idea behind a free market. You, however, have no idea and only seem to be able to post Commanders SUCKZ posts and we're trying to have real discourse on Pacman's value and trade discussions.

No .... your entire argument is based on a false claim.

No one is saying its charity. You are just using this issue to take shots at Cowboy fans.

You have not made one point that makes any sense. Especially when you try to base the Commander trade practices on what we should do.

 

[Stash]

Either way, if you think the Skins are the worst team in the league at trading (you are delusion or uninformed if any answer other than the Raiders is given) then you'd want to jump all over this deal. You'd be the Bears and the Titans would be the skins (roughly).

Then I'd really want out.

The Commanders made a huge mistake overpaying for a lousy player in Archuleta and the Bears bailed them out.

Pacman might be a lousy person, but he's not a lousy player.

 

[montgod]

Pacman Jones-DB-Titans Apr. 3 - 1:14 am et

The Titans and Cowboys are close to agreeing to compensation in a Pacman Jones trade, but remain at odds about bonus money in Jones' rookie contract.
Tennessee is seeking "several million" as a return on the bonus money included in his 2005 deal. The Titans could also file a grievance with the NFL. This is holding up the trade that still seems likely to send Jones to Dallas. Other teams throwing their hat in doesn't appear to be the problem.
Source: Nashville Tennessean

I don't think the grievance would be concerning the Cowboys, but most likely with Pacman Jones and the NFL since he was suspended for a year along w/all his off-the-field issues.

 

[Hostile]

From what I read on the Titans board.....

Bidwell...(owner of the Titans) has mentioned that he will eat the contract and keep Pacman on the team.....he will not let him go for peanuts....especially to Dallas who we all know the owner hates.

IMHO.....I dont think the Titans are in a must trade Pac situation......I could easily see Pacman back with the Titans........players liked Pacman and when he was there....he worked hard and was a difference maker.....

That being said....if I was Dallas.....I would walk away.....let the Titans take the chance on him.....one more altercation and Pacman is suspended again...and the Titans get nothing in return and still take the cap hit on his signing bonus.

Bidwell owns the Cardinals, Bud Adams is who you meant.

 

[The Rawhide Kid]

No .... your entire argument is based on a false claim.

No one is saying its charity. You are just using this issue to take shots at Cowboy fans.

You have not made one point that makes any sense. Especially when you try to base the Commander trade practices on what we should do.

:skins: :skins: :suxskins: :suxskins: :shoot1: :shoot2: :shoot3: :moon: :redhomer: :redwhine: ee: :dissskin: :dissskin: Boy, I feel a lot better. Did I miss any smilies?

 

[firehawk350]

Given that both Jones and the Titans have said that he's done in Tennessee, this whole 'keeping him' stuff is a sad attempt at backtracking.

If they want to keep him, let them.

Tell the league you've re-thought things and he's off the market.

No?

Well then they're liars, desperately trying to erase some foolish comments made by the head coach.

Well if the world was in black and white then you'd have a point... However, there are some shade of grey and chances are they aren't 100% convinced so they will get what they deem as fair compensation for a player with Pacman's skill sets but also his problems. Nothing wrong with saying, well, what do you offer? Then countering and reconsidering selling if you don't get what you want. Try it with a car, somebody not give you what you want and you too will decide that you can live with it.

I'd like to see a quote where someone said the Cowboys were doing the Titans a favor and they should be happy with whatever they get.

If we are bidding 6th round draft choice then yes we are doing them a very big favor becasue at the end of the day we could stick to the lowest possible bid and just wait them out.

This isn't even on a different page. Yikes, that's embarrassing...

Sounds more like sour grapes from an opposing fan who wished his team was in the mix and hates the thought of 'the enemy' getting better.

The fact is that the Titans can ask for whatever they want - as outrageous as it may be.

And the Cowboys have the right to walk away from the deal.

And we have the right to criticize the Titans for what we feel to be unreasonable demands.

Yeah, and I have the right to say you sound like whiny "sour grapes" because the mean ol' Titans won't give the nice Cowboys their pacman. You only think the demands are unreasonable, nobody else. I find their demands to be a bit much, but not unreasonable. Apparently, since Jerry is still (at least appears to be) at the bargaining table, he does too.

You're right though, I do wish the Skins would throw in their bid because I feel like anything later than the 4th round is an absolute steal.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

Completely irrelevant to the conversation... The adults are talking about precedent to contract buyouts, if you can't keep up or comprehend, try the kiddie table where the conversation is more to your level ("the cowboyz roolz and the skins droolz!").

Completely childish response to a question.