Martin v. Pugh/Long

[Teague31]

I'm really starting to warm up to the idea of zach martin at 16 if Donald is gone. Curious as to what the draft experts think of how he compares to pugh and long. Both went pretty close to where we are this year. Is martin better, worse or about the same?

 

[tm1119]

Just because other teams reached on a guard doesn't mean we should....there plenty of talented o linemen in this draft that are very comparable to Martin in my opinion.

 

[TheCount]

He's not just a guard, he can play RT and that would have to be the long term plan if you take him at 16. Start at guard immediately, transition to RT once Free leaves after this season. And 16 is fine for a quality starting RT in the NFL.

 

[xwalker]

I'm really starting to warm up to the idea of zach martin at 16 if Donald is gone. Curious as to what the draft experts think of how he compares to pugh and long. Both went pretty close to where we are this year. Is martin better, worse or about the same?

I like Martin as a Guard. As an OT, he would have the smallest wingspan of any OT in the NFL. His wingspan is about 76". Justin Pugh despite having shorter arms, has a bigger wingspan at about 79". If both Pugh and Martin were Guards, then I think Martin would be better.

I was shocked that Pugh was drafted at #19.

I was also shocked that Long was drafted at #20, but more because of his character, mental-makeup risks. He had a history with drugs and his 1st choice was to play baseball.

 

[DuDa]

I thought Pugh was drafted too high. The run on interior lineman caused that. He might be a late 2nd in this draft. I think Martin is the better player coming out college.

 

[CowboysLaw87]

Martin is a better prospect at both OG and RT than either Pugh or Long in my opinion. Not by some insane amount, but enough that I say it without hesitation. Martin is extremely technically sound, quick off the snap and powerful/tenacious through his blocks. He can create more movement in the running game than either of those guys, and has a stouter/wider base for anchoring in pass pro.

I absolutely think Martin is worthy of #16, and the only hesitation on my part is that we're simply in better shape on the OL than at other positions.

 

[jterrell]

Martin is a talent.
He has value and should go in round 1 but he was advised by the NFL committee that he was a round 2-4 guy a month or so ago. So his ND game tape wasnt elite, just good.

It is easy to compare him to Pugh and Long but realize last year's draft was MUCH MUCH weaker at the top with a huge deficit at the skill and speed positions.
OL/DL were in many cases overdrafted.

Taking an OG/RT in this draft at 16 is very, very, very unlikely.
The elite talent at OT should go well before us.
The one guy who can fall is Lewan but he has some nasty background stuff to work through and this team has taken few character chances under Garrett.

I would have hated to draft Pugh or Long because I think we got a guy as good at 31 and added TWill as well.
I believe Dallas would drop from 16 if the top player on their board was Martin at that time.

 

[CowboysLaw87]

I believe Dallas would drop from 16 if the top player on their board was Martin at that time.

This I completely agree with. I think he's theoretically worth #16 and I wouldn't personally be upset by the pick, but I do think we'd look for a deal down if he was the BPA on the board. Then again, with the depth of this draft, I think we'd love an opportunity to move down about 10 picks and pick up an additional 3rd in almost any scenario.

 

[jterrell]

This I completely agree with. I think he's theoretically worth #16 and I wouldn't personally be upset by the pick, but I do think we'd look for a deal down if he was the BPA on the board. Then again, with the depth of this draft, I think we'd love an opportunity to move down about 10 picks and pick up an additional 3rd in almost any scenario.

Reading Cowboys tea leaves is an art form that few have mastered but I have been trying for 20 years.

I think Dallas was honest about targeting front 7 when asked in the honest area of season post mortem.
I think we'll see a lot of misdirection now.

I suspect Dallas views round 1 something like:
1. DE/3T
2. LB
3. trade down
4. BPA that can be a day 1 starter.(OG/FS/3T)
4B. Drafting a QB who you can sell to fans.
5. not turning in card on time, lol.
6. BPA that is not a day 1 starter.

 

[CowboysLaw87]

Reading Cowboys tea leaves is an art form that few have mastered but I have been trying for 20 years.

I think Dallas was honest about targeting front 7 when asked in the honest area of season post mortem.
I think we'll see a lot of misdirection now.

I suspect Dallas views round 1 something like:
1. DE/3T
2. LB
3. trade down
4. BPA that can be a day 1 starter.(OG/FS/3T)
4B. Drafting a QB who you can sell to fans.
5. not turning in card on time, lol.
6. BPA that is not a day 1 starter.

Option #5, aka the Roy Williams 2002 heart attack approach...

I'm pretty much on board with this, except I might even 2 and 3. That question can be trimmed down to: Would we move off #16 v. select Mosley? I think we'd move if met with equal value. I think the same is true of every scenario that doesn't involve Donald being available at 16.

However, if moving down is not an option, I agree that it's DE/3T (Donald), followed by LB (Mosley), followed by Day 1 Starter (Martin, Evans?, Pryor, Clinton-Dix, maybe Jernigan/Hageman).

 

[jterrell]

Option #5, aka the Roy Williams 2002 heart attack approach...

I'm pretty much on board with this, except I might even 2 and 3. That question can be trimmed down to: Would we move off #16 v. select Mosley? I think we'd move if met with equal value. I think the same is true of every scenario that doesn't involve Donald being available at 16.

However, if moving down is not an option, I agree that it's DE/3T (Donald), followed by LB (Mosley), followed by Day 1 Starter (Martin, Evans?, Pryor, Clinton-Dix, maybe Jernigan/Hageman).

I was actually where you were until I heard or saw written that Dallas would like to move Sean Lee to WLB to free up toll on his body.
Mosley has been a top 10 rated guy on many boards who falls in many mocks due to position.

If you are Dallas and pull Mosley as your day 1 starting MLB and accompany that with Sean Lee moving to WLB you can do some really cool things with coverage because Lee can actually man cover RB and TEs plus he will pick off the ball at ridiculous rates.

That concept could be misdirection and smoke but it seems so smart I almost want to believe it is real.
In that scenario Holloman and carter become top back ups, and you theoretically fix LB all the way around.

Of course the DL is still a nuclear mess but you've got the rest of the draft and FA to fix that.

 

[tm1119]

I was actually where you were until I heard or saw written that Dallas would like to move Sean Lee to WLB to free up toll on his body.
Mosley has been a top 10 rated guy on many boards who falls in many mocks due to position.

If you are Dallas and pull Mosley as your day 1 starting MLB and accompany that with Sean Lee moving to WLB you can do some really cool things with coverage because Lee can actually man cover RB and TEs plus he will pick off the ball at ridiculous rates.

That concept could be misdirection and smoke but it seems so smart I almost want to believe it is real.
In that scenario Holloman and carter become top back ups, and you theoretically fix LB all the way around.

Of course the DL is still a nuclear mess but you've got the rest of the draft and FA to fix that.

I'd love to go with your scenario (Lee + Mosley) and play 3 safeties as well. We would need a true CF type FS added but think of the athleticism that would be on the field with Lee, Mosley, Wilcox, and Church all basically playing as LB's with press man on the outside and a single high FS. Wilcox would come off of the field for Scandrick in nickel situations....

Never going to happen but it's a nice dream to have lol

 

[CowboysLaw87]

I was actually where you were until I heard or saw written that Dallas would like to move Sean Lee to WLB to free up toll on his body.
Mosley has been a top 10 rated guy on many boards who falls in many mocks due to position.

If you are Dallas and pull Mosley as your day 1 starting MLB and accompany that with Sean Lee moving to WLB you can do some really cool things with coverage because Lee can actually man cover RB and TEs plus he will pick off the ball at ridiculous rates.

That concept could be misdirection and smoke but it seems so smart I almost want to believe it is real.
In that scenario Holloman and carter become top back ups, and you theoretically fix LB all the way around.

Of course the DL is still a nuclear mess but you've got the rest of the draft and FA to fix that.

I'm with ya on that whole total package LB overhaul being a very nice option. Question... where did you see that we'd like to move Lee to WILL? I've seen it discussed as an option, but it was only speculation. I've been digging and asking questions and can't really find anything concrete about it. Seems to make a ton of sense:

1) We get to remove Lee from the epicenter of physical contact, thus preserving him and also maximizing his strength in space at WILL.
2) We make room for Mosley at MLB... thus justifying taking him when he'd likely be the BPA.
3) It would allow Carter to move to SAM, where he can minimize his time in space. Being in space = needing to think.

An argument can be made that we improve at all 3 LB spots AND depth, since Holloman would be the 4th LB instead of a starter. Kind of incredible value, right?

 

[jterrell]

I'm with ya on that whole total package LB overhaul being a very nice option. Question... where did you see that we'd like to move Lee to WILL? I've seen it discussed as an option, but it was only speculation. I've been digging and asking questions and can't really find anything concrete about it. Seems to make a ton of sense:

1) We get to remove Lee from the epicenter of physical contact, thus preserving him and also maximizing his strength in space at WILL.
2) We make room for Mosley at MLB... thus justifying taking him when he'd likely be the BPA.
3) It would allow Carter to move to SAM, where he can minimize his time in space. Being in space = needing to think.

An argument can be made that we improve at all 3 LB spots AND depth, since Holloman would be the 4th LB instead of a starter. Kind of incredible value, right?

Honestly I think it was some nub like ian rappoport retweeted by someone I actually follow so I am merely at "hoping" it is true.

 

[DuDa]

I was actually where you were until I heard or saw written that Dallas would like to move Sean Lee to WLB to free up toll on his body.
Mosley has been a top 10 rated guy on many boards who falls in many mocks due to position.

If you are Dallas and pull Mosley as your day 1 starting MLB and accompany that with Sean Lee moving to WLB you can do some really cool things with coverage because Lee can actually man cover RB and TEs plus he will pick off the ball at ridiculous rates.

That concept could be misdirection and smoke but it seems so smart I almost want to believe it is real.
In that scenario Holloman and carter become top back ups, and you theoretically fix LB all the way around.

Of course the DL is still a nuclear mess but you've got the rest of the draft and FA to fix that.

The problem with that is there are rumblings that Mosley is pretty beaten up as well. There are some that are worried about the wear on his tires so to speak.

 

[Hardline]

I would like to hear everyones opinion of Zack Martin compared to Jonathan Cooper and Chance Warmack. of last years draft.

 

[xwalker]

I would like to hear everyones opinion of Zack Martin compared to Jonathan Cooper and Chance Warmack. of last years draft.

Cooper's raw physical ability is much better than Martin's, IMO; however, Martin's technique, awareness and all non physical attributes are better.

IMO, Warmack is only a fit in a man blocking scheme; whereas, the other 2 could play either scheme.

This draft is loaded with talent at OG. OT looks fairly deep also.

 

[rwalters31]

I'm really starting to warm up to the idea of zach martin at 16 if Donald is gone. Curious as to what the draft experts think of how he compares to pugh and long. Both went pretty close to where we are this year. Is martin better, worse or about the same?

OK, two or three drafts ago I would have gone OL, OL, OL, DL, IB, DL, OL . Three years later I have DL, DL, OL (G), DL, S, and DL. UDFA: FB, S, RB, QB, LB, OL, DL.

You know, I have heard that even a blind squirrel will occasionally find an acorn. However, that pond scum sucking, Dingbat, no good, pea brain GM of ours couldn't find his butt with his own hand! Please, please, do not recommend anyone else except DL and OL for this draft.

Thank you
Signed

Cowboy Fans
Blind squirrels
The sane
Texas and the other 49 states

 

[Alexander]

Martin is a much better prospect than both of those players.

But I think we need to get ready for neither Martin, or everyone's belle of the ball in Donald to be around when our selection goes on the clock.

 

[burmafrd]

A technician is actually what we need on the Line next to Free as long as he is here. And one is always needed on an O line; you want maulers and technicians. I would prefer Right Side to be maulers and left side technicians ideally.