Moore Betta Offense - Yards After Catch

Proof

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Again any route ran lends to yards after the catch, Again Accuracy and anticipation of the qb is the key ,also your qb has to be able to fit the concepts your asking . We dont know If Bill Walsh concepts fits Dak, we've seen Dak inaccurate on crossing routes which are highly used within Bill Walsh offense. So if you're asking them them run more west coast concepts, I don't see that being Dak' s strengths. Where Dak is accurate at times, he also need to improve a lot in that area. That in itself will create more yards after the catch. Bill Walsh offense is one of the most complicated offenses for qb .


You’re really muddying some pretty clear waters.
 

Roadtrip635

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You mean like this route?

Of course there will always be the exceptions, but that doesn't make it rule. Throwing more stop/comeback routes isn't going to get you more YAC and it certainly won't get you more when we were using smaller less physical WRs like Bease, Thompson and Austin that don't have the size or strength to shield defenders or break tackles. If the 10 year old play would have been Beasley he's down at the catch, he doesn't have the strength to break that tackle.

I haven't seen the 2018 stats yet but here are the stats from 2017

Type of route NFL YAC average (yards)

Curl 2.9
Comebacks 0.9
Slants 5.2
Drags 5.8
Post 5.1

Hmmmmmm, those stop/comeback routes are really close in YAC to those slants and drags..... :rolleyes:
You don't eliminate those routes, they are good possession throws, moves the chains, but don't expect much YAC from them, they simply aren't designed to get it.
 

buybuydandavis

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I saw a thread earlier about our RedZone offense last season and thought I'd chime in on other less notable things that sometimes fans miss which in this case I wanted to discuss the importance of yards after catch.

Last season the Cowboys ranked 17th in yards after catch. Which was about middle of the pack. I personally feel that it was the play calling that prevented a lot of yards after the catch (a bunch of stop routes ect) and not to mention the first half of the season WR by committee did us no favors either.

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/tmleaders.asp?range=NFL&type=Receiving&rank=231

This is a very important stat IMO. If you look at the top 10 offenses in 2018; most of those teams are ranked in top 10 in yards after the catch. You had exceptions like the Saints who surprisingly did not do well in yards after the catch (even with Kamara) but was a top 10 offense all season and then you have Tampa who was top 10 in yards after the catch but not a top 10 offense in yards.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/sort/netTotalYards

So yea I get it that this is not an exact science. With that said the 2 Superbowl teams last season were top 10 in both these stats. Of course defense at the end of the day decided the winner of the SB; its still an interesting point IMO because you have to get there at the end of the day to win it and positioning yourself for bye week's and home field advantage in the playoffs are key.

Now a lot depends on what our Moore Betta Offense will look like but IMO we have the talent to be a top 10 team in yards after the catch.

Amari Cooper - 4.3 forty
Zeke Elliott - 4.4 forty
Tavon Austin - 4.3 forty
Randall Cobb - 4.4 forty
Michael Gallup - 4.4 forty
Tony Pollard - 4.3 forty

All have the ability to extend plays after the catch.

While we often associate Zeke with yards after contact in the run game he is actually top 10 in the NFL in yards after the catch as well. Shockingly Amari is not even top 25; which IMO is a play calling problem.

https://www.footballdb.com/stats/stats.html?mode=C&sort=recyac

If Kellen just simply adds routes to the playbook that allow our receivers to be play makers after the catch and actually calls those plays in the game; that in itself should lead to more scoring opportunities.

Thoughts?

Linehan was all about sticks and comeback routes the last couple of seasons at least. Hard to get a lot of yac when you catch the ball standing in place and pointing in the wrong direction. Particularly brutal for Witten.

Whether Linehan did that because he didn't trust Dak's accuracy, and whether he was in fact making the most of Dak as a passer are both fair questions. I think not, but let's see it in a new offense that challenges Dak to make grown up QB throws. Not fancy stuff, just hitting guys on the move.

Speaking of which, if Dak can improve his deep ball accuracy, that will open up a lot of YAC underneath. Our problem since 2017 has been defenses sitting on the wideouts because they aren't worried about getting beat deep. Dez and Terrance didn't have the speed to run by guys. Now we've got faster guys that do. We still need Dak to get the ball there more consistently.

I do like the crazy speed we've accumulated. And the oline. Dak and Kellen have a lot to work with. I'm very glad Kitna is thrown into that mix. Kellen should like like a genius if he's just sensible.

Also, you left one out. Devin Smith, a 4.42 at the combine, and 37th pick of the 2015 draft. His NFL profile has his comparable as DeSean Jackson. Did nothing with the Jets, but was a top WR prospect in the 2015 draft. We have his rights for the next 2 years.
 

buybuydandavis

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Of course there will always be the exceptions, but that doesn't make it rule. Throwing more stop/comeback routes isn't going to get you more YAC and it certainly won't get you more when we were using smaller less physical WRs like Bease, Thompson and Austin that don't have the size or strength to shield defenders or break tackles. If the 10 year old play would have been Beasley he's down at the catch, he doesn't have the strength to break that tackle.

I haven't seen the 2018 stats yet but here are the stats from 2017

Type of route NFL YAC average (yards)

Curl 2.9
Comebacks 0.9
Slants 5.2
Drags 5.8
Post 5.1

Hmmmmmm, those stop/comeback routes are really close in YAC to those slants and drags..... :rolleyes:
You don't eliminate those routes, they are good possession throws, moves the chains, but don't expect much YAC from them, they simply aren't designed to get it.

Should you get more YAC when you catch the ball running downfield or running back to the QB? That's a real head scratcher.

Let me try to be fair to Linehan. We want to run and run. So maybe a greater percentage of passes for us were coming on 3rd down when we're trying to move the chains, so that the curls and comebacks make more sense?
 

Roadtrip635

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Are you not listening, these aren't Dak' s strengths, just like the back shoulder throws weren't, you are having trouble understand you're qb strengths. You're also having problems understanding that if you're having a qb trying to do something he's not good at, you're not creating anymore rac opportunities than you are any other route because he's not good at it. Furthermore using you're logic running posts, post corners, verts are routes that would give more rac opportunities. Running horizontally forces longer drives and higher risk for a mistakes. Again if You need 10 yards and there's a 7 yard stick route called it's most likely the 3 or 4th option or checkdown on the play same as a comeback under the yardage needed or the receiver didn't push his route deep enough . It's basic football to know that if you need 10 and you have a comeback, you run that route 14-15 yards and back to 10-12 unless you're a checkdown route on the play. Same as a stick, the primary wr with a stick needing 10, he's suppose to run that stop route beyond the sticks again unless that route is the 3rd option. Because you see the ball go there doesn't mean it was designed to go there or is the primary.


You're the one not grasping what this offense was doing. Stick routes were a staple of this team regardless of the situation. We ran 3 and 4 receivers running those routes on the same play, most not even varying the depth. We ran that play multiple times a game under Linehan, all WRs running 7 yd stop routes, they weren't the 3rd or 4th option, it was the only option because everyone was running one. The Seattle regular season game in particular, was maddening because we ran it over and over again. The defenders knew it was coming and camped out at the spot the WRs were supposed to break, they never even had to move more than a yard to cover them. The Philly game, Coop got frustrated with yet another comeback route called and told Dak he was going to dbl move him, why isn't Linehan seeing that and calling it? Nope good 'ol Linehan was content running yet another stop route that the defender was going to sit on.

It wasn't our WRs strengths to run all those stop routes. Linehan didn't adjust to the abilities of the receivers, those smaller less physical WRs are losing their biggest asset of speed and quickness, those routes are suited to the Dez type. Their advantage is forcing the defenders to stay with them, that means keep them moving not slowing them down. That's simply a cop out saying Dak doesn't throw horizontal or vertical routes well. If we want more YAC, then there needs to be schematic shift to do so, we have agile WRs to run more motion based routes.

As far as deep passes, we only run 2 a fly or double move fly, we rarely run deep posts, deep corner or deep crosses. You can't say it's because that Dak doesn't throw those well, the fly down the sideline is a harder throw and harder for the WR to track, those other routes are far easier for the WRs to adjust to.

The limitations weren't because of Dak, it was our OC and the Garrett offensive philosophy. Why didn't we run more pick or bunch routes, or RPOs, or use more pre-snap motion, or more PA or use Dak as a running threat more often? We have a FB, why don't we use him?
 

Roadtrip635

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Should you get more YAC when you catch the ball running downfield or running back to the QB? That's a real head scratcher.

Let me try to be fair to Linehan. We want to run and run. So maybe a greater percentage of passes for us were coming on 3rd down when we're trying to move the chains, so that the curls and comebacks make more sense?


I don't have a problem with running stop routes, they have their place for sure, the curl is the most common route in the NFL. The problem is how we used them, we routinely called plays where every receiver ran a stop route to the sticks, there weren't other route options. There wasn't a clearout or other type route run to make the defense react. We are predictable on when we call them, defenders see it and can sit on the route, sometimes not even having to move more than a yard or two to defend. It's too easy to just have DBs defend at the sticks, you need to have a route or two running across the zones to find a soft spot or at least draw attention to make those stop routes easier to convert. We have to get the defense moving, whether it's pre-snap motion, mixing vertical and horizontal routes, picks, rubs and bunches, RPOs, etc. a mix of these, something to force the defense into making choices.
 

JohnsKey19

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Or that the receivers weren't doing their jobs. Hence the trade for Coop, what do you know the play calling magically got better:rolleyes: especially the passing game

The pass catching group pre-trade, was about as poor as could be for an NFL team. Your only game-changing type talent was a 3rd round draft pick at a position that historically starts slow. Dion Thompson is a D level WR. Hurns is average at best. And Beasley is a good niche WR. You line those guys up with essentially 3 rookies at TE, the results will be poor anywhere.
 

visionary

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I saw a thread earlier about our RedZone offense last season and thought I'd chime in on other less notable things that sometimes fans miss which in this case I wanted to discuss the importance of yards after catch.

Last season the Cowboys ranked 17th in yards after catch. Which was about middle of the pack. I personally feel that it was the play calling that prevented a lot of yards after the catch (a bunch of stop routes ect) and not to mention the first half of the season WR by committee did us no favors either.

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/tmleaders.asp?range=NFL&type=Receiving&rank=231

This is a very important stat IMO. If you look at the top 10 offenses in 2018; most of those teams are ranked in top 10 in yards after the catch. You had exceptions like the Saints who surprisingly did not do well in yards after the catch (even with Kamara) but was a top 10 offense all season and then you have Tampa who was top 10 in yards after the catch but not a top 10 offense in yards.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/sort/netTotalYards

So yea I get it that this is not an exact science. With that said the 2 Superbowl teams last season were top 10 in both these stats. Of course defense at the end of the day decided the winner of the SB; its still an interesting point IMO because you have to get there at the end of the day to win it and positioning yourself for bye week's and home field advantage in the playoffs are key.

Now a lot depends on what our Moore Betta Offense will look like but IMO we have the talent to be a top 10 team in yards after the catch.

Amari Cooper - 4.3 forty
Zeke Elliott - 4.4 forty
Tavon Austin - 4.3 forty
Randall Cobb - 4.4 forty
Michael Gallup - 4.4 forty
Tony Pollard - 4.3 forty

All have the ability to extend plays after the catch.

While we often associate Zeke with yards after contact in the run game he is actually top 10 in the NFL in yards after the catch as well. Shockingly Amari is not even top 25; which IMO is a play calling problem.

https://www.footballdb.com/stats/stats.html?mode=C&sort=recyac

If Kellen just simply adds routes to the playbook that allow our receivers to be play makers after the catch and actually calls those plays in the game; that in itself should lead to more scoring opportunities.

Thoughts?

YAC is about throwing the receiver open and getting the ball to them in stride (i.e. QB anticipation and accuracy ). We have used more comebacks and curls. Do you really think that Linehan just didn't know that? LOL

I fear this more a Dak limitation that a scheme limitation. Dak has serious limitations like having to see the receivers open before he throws which lead to poor anticipation and poor technique like not setting his feet , not driving the front foot, not climbing the pocket which all lead to inaccurate throws

I'm not holding my breath it's gonna be more of the same
 

ItzKelz

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Oh dear...you've been duped.
If considering facts is being duped Ill take that. If anyone can produce facts that Dak was not the best QB in the NFC the second half of the season please do so.....crickets highly likely.
 

Kevinicus

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If considering facts is being duped Ill take that. If anyone can produce facts that Dak was not the best QB in the NFC the second half of the season please do so.....crickets highly likely.
You think it is a "fact" that Dak was the best in the NFC (at any point). You're using fact wrong.
 

conner01

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If the WRs are not running the appropriate routes to be able to get yards after the catch......I'm just saying. How can Dak be missing passes on those routes if we are not running those routes? Yea any route can have yards after the catch as Dak and Amari proved that last season.....the idea is to do it more often with routes that lend itself towards yards after the catch. Bill Walsh created a whole offense on this premise....it was pretty epic you should have seen it.
Walsh had guys moving across the field
Lineham ran way too many come back routes
Come back routes are hard to defend so they have their place but they tend not to produce much YAC
 

Dre11

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You’re really muddying some pretty clear waters.

There's nothing clear about anything, what you see on tv isn't necessarily the inner workings of the offenses.
 

ItzKelz

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Maybe I'm just old now, but I recall Alvin Harper changing the fate of our franchise with some YAC on same route our WRs run over and over. The fact that Dez and Dak could never make that route work is why Dez isn't here anymore.

Aikman clearly likes Dak, but he does say over and over that he isn't that accurate with the ball. Hutchinson was extremely accurate and couldn't play the position, so obviously it's not everything, but it's a big factor in YAC. You want YAC then Dak has to put the ball in the right spot.

If you want to say that we need to run more routes that Dak can throw accurately on then fine, but don't make the lack of YAC into scheme problem.
Nothing wrong with Alvin Harper did for our offense. Nothing wrong what Bill Walsh did for the NFL by advancing it with a run after the catch based offense. If you have the players for it.....we now have those. Take advantage.
 

ItzKelz

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Linehan was all about sticks and comeback routes the last couple of seasons at least. Hard to get a lot of yac when you catch the ball standing in place and pointing in the wrong direction. Particularly brutal for Witten.

Whether Linehan did that because he didn't trust Dak's accuracy, and whether he was in fact making the most of Dak as a passer are both fair questions. I think not, but let's see it in a new offense that challenges Dak to make grown up QB throws. Not fancy stuff, just hitting guys on the move.

Speaking of which, if Dak can improve his deep ball accuracy, that will open up a lot of YAC underneath. Our problem since 2017 has been defenses sitting on the wideouts because they aren't worried about getting beat deep. Dez and Terrance didn't have the speed to run by guys. Now we've got faster guys that do. We still need Dak to get the ball there more consistently.

I do like the crazy speed we've accumulated. And the oline. Dak and Kellen have a lot to work with. I'm very glad Kitna is thrown into that mix. Kellen should like like a genius if he's just sensible.

Also, you left one out. Devin Smith, a 4.42 at the combine, and 37th pick of the 2015 draft. His NFL profile has his comparable as DeSean Jackson. Did nothing with the Jets, but was a top WR prospect in the 2015 draft. We have his rights for the next 2 years.
Linehan's offense was a safe offense originally put in place to keep the wraps on Romo. Run more with DeMarco and protect Romo from Romo with safe routes. Romo would sometime go off script and we saw Dak go off script last season. Dak took an offense that was designed for another QB and made it work.....that is a sign of greatness.
 

pansophy

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Nothing wrong with Alvin Harper did for our offense. Nothing wrong what Bill Walsh did for the NFL by advancing it with a run after the catch based offense. If you have the players for it.....we now have those. Take advantage.
YAC is crucial, I agree. I just don't see Dak putting the ball in places where YAC is possible that often even on routes that would lend itself to that.
 

Dre11

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You're the one not grasping what this offense was doing. Stick routes were a staple of this team regardless of the situation. We ran 3 and 4 receivers running those routes on the same play, most not even varying the depth. We ran that play multiple times a game under Linehan, all WRs running 7 yd stop routes, they weren't the 3rd or 4th option, it was the only option because everyone was running one. The Seattle regular season game in particular, was maddening because we ran it over and over again. The defenders knew it was coming and camped out at the spot the WRs were supposed to break, they never even had to move more than a yard to cover them. The Philly game, Coop got frustrated with yet another comeback route called and told Dak he was going to dbl move him, why isn't Linehan seeing that and calling it? Nope good 'ol Linehan was content running yet another stop route that the defender was going to sit on.

It wasn't our WRs strengths to run all those stop routes. Linehan didn't adjust to the abilities of the receivers, those smaller less physical WRs are losing their biggest asset of speed and quickness, those routes are suited to the Dez type. Their advantage is forcing the defenders to stay with them, that means keep them moving not slowing them down. That's simply a cop out saying Dak doesn't throw horizontal or vertical routes well. If we want more YAC, then there needs to be schematic shift to do so, we have agile WRs to run more motion based routes.

As far as deep passes, we only run 2 a fly or double move fly, we rarely run deep posts, deep corner or deep crosses. You can't say it's because that Dak doesn't throw those well, the fly down the sideline is a harder throw and harder for the WR to track, those other routes are far easier for the WRs to adjust to.

The limitations weren't because of Dak, it was our OC and the Garrett offensive philosophy. Why didn't we run more pick or bunch routes, or RPOs, or use more pre-snap motion, or more PA or use Dak as a running threat more often? We have a FB, why don't we use him?

I grasp the offense quite well, being a huge Dak fan, he most certainly Dak' s limitations. You can't ask him to do things he struggles to do until he gets better at them. I never said theybdidnt run stick,stop, or comebacks. You're changing the narrative, what was said had to do with had, in which the scheme, or routes isn't preventing. You're statement on Rpos shows just how little you know about the offense . This team was one of the top teams in 16 running Rpo s. Dak is always a threat to run, they put him him plenty situation to run, teams took it away as Dak himself has explained, in a few situation Dak made wrong reads giving to Zeke instead of keeping. If you're watching the games it's obvious. You're not going to keep putting him in constant harm's way, he's not a runner like Jackson,Mahommes,Watson. He's a straight line runner and prone to take more hits. As far as motions, I agree more motions are needed and those are the changes you might see although with the offense under Garrett as OC did use motion quite a bit more than recently. They should get rid of the fullback, with Zeke runs better from the singleback.
 

Dre11

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The pass catching group pre-trade, was about as poor as could be for an NFL team. Your only game-changing type talent was a 3rd round draft pick at a position that historically starts slow. Dion Thompson is a D level WR. Hurns is average at best. And Beasley is a good niche WR. You line those guys up with essentially 3 rookies at TE, the results will be poor anywhere.

Yep, which is why they went out and got Coop. And they instantly got better.
 

Proof

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There's nothing clear about anything, what you see on tv isn't necessarily the inner workings of the offenses.


It’s not about what I see on tv. Dude was talking about RAC in a very conventional and common sense way, that we all understand. We also all understand that receivers can potentially run after any catch. Not really the point
 

OmerV

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YAC is crucial, I agree. I just don't see Dak putting the ball in places where YAC is possible that often even on routes that would lend itself to that.

Cooper had huge yardage after the catch with Dak. YAC comes when receivers run precise routes and get a little separation.
 

Dre11

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YAC is crucial, I agree. I just don't see Dak putting the ball in places where YAC is possible that often even on routes that would lend itself to that.

He can work to get better at it and I'm sure he will. We may see him do more this year.
 
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