NFLN: Charles Haley makes/Jimmy Johnson misses final 15 for Pro football HOF

[joseephuss]

If we're honest, Jimmy's body of work was a flop EXCEPT for his superbowl years in Dallas, and arguably his rebuilding years. Miami was likely a more accurate reflection of what his ability as an NFL coach was in reality - without an evil owner willing to do anything to win. By that I mean that Jerry was actually a large part of Jimmy's success (and vice-versa). Many won't like that observation, but it's hard to refute. Coaches rarely get to dump out all the blocks and start over as Jimmy did in his first year...nor do they benefit from Herschel Walker trades...ever. When handed a realistic coaching opportunity and a chance to live like Sonny Crockett, Jimmy flopped. He was a good coach in the context of his time in Dallas, but best suited for college. No HOF for Jimmy, although he should be lauded by Cowboys fans forever.

Charles Haley: a beast of a football player and an absolute reprobate as a human being...but we're talking only about football, huh? Character means nothing in sports today.

Character really hasn't meant much in sports in the past, either. There are plenty of scummy guys inducted into the different sports Hall of Fames.

Jimmy probably had too much power in the personnel decisions in Miami. He could have benefited from having a stronger GM around. In Dallas Jimmy knew all the top talent coming out of college. He either coached them, coached against them or recruited them. By 1996 he was far removed from having first hand knowledge about the college players.

Jimmy definitely had a huge impact in Dallas. He just didn't have long lasting success. In my opinion, Hall of Famers have a bit of both on their resume.

 

[CowboyGil]

Half those scrub finalists don't deserve to be on the same ballot as Haley as a player. And Tony Dungy but no Jimmy? C'mon.

 

[joseephuss]

He is a lot more deserving than most will ever give him credit for. There is no question that the addition of Jerry Jones into NFL ownership has made the league better. JMO but his contributions should make the vote a slam dunk in fact.

The trick is to separate Jerry the GM from Jerry the owner. Jerry the GM is not a HoFer and should have been fired many times over. Jerry the owner is a different beast. He has been very influential in the continuing development of the league. There are owners that are involved and there are owners that just sit around waiting for their shared revenue checks to arrive. Jerry is highly involved in league matters. Had Jerry been around in the 1960s he would have been front and center with Lamar Hunt in the big AFL/NFL merger. He obviously doesn't have something of that magnitude to deal with, but he does work hard to ensure the NFL stays the top sport in the U.S..

 

[trueblue1687]

Character really hasn't meant much in sports in the past, either. There are plenty of scummy guys inducted into the different sports Hall of Fames.

Jimmy probably had too much power in the personnel decisions in Miami. He could have benefited from having a stronger GM around. In Dallas Jimmy knew all the top talent coming out of college. He either coached them, coached against them or recruited them. By 1996 he was far removed from having first hand knowledge about the college players.

Jimmy definitely had a huge impact in Dallas. He just didn't have long lasting success. In my opinion, Hall of Famers have a bit of both on their resume.

My points exactly about his years in Miami...a more accurate reflection of his ability once he lacked the ability to cherrypick Hurricane players. After that's removed, he's really a pretty average coach...he was just in the right moment in Dallas and I would be less than honest to say he had NO talent as a coach - he's a GOOD coach...not a great one.

My experience (in football only, and ended after college ball) was that character was important, at least more important than now. I think I'm pretty accurate in saying that a Tom Landry wouldn't have tolerated a player like Haley very long, no matter the talent. Drug use is rationalized if not condoned today. Yeah, there has always been turds in sports, but I think they're rewarded more today than ever before. Watched an NBA game recently?

 

[joseephuss]

I agree with Tony Dungy not being a Hall of Famer. He is a good coach, but not a great one. He was placed in a couple of good situations in my opinion, which sounds funny when his first stop was in Tampa. The Bucs weren't great when he arrived, but I think Wyche at least laid most of the ground work for a reasonable foundation. Dungy wasn't starting with nothing. And the Colts were ready to be a force when Dungy got there. Mora had put the pieces in place before Dungy.

Dan Reeves doesn't get the HoF consideration he deserves. He would be a shoe in had he won one of those Superbowls, but even without that he accomplished quite a bit.

 

[trueblue1687]

I agree with Tony Dungy not being a Hall of Famer. He is a good coach, but not a great one. He was placed in a couple of good situations in my opinion, which sounds funny when his first stop was in Tampa. The Bucs weren't great when he arrived, but I think Wyche at least laid most of the ground work for a reasonable foundation. Dungy wasn't starting with nothing. And the Colts were ready to be a force when Dungy got there. Mora had put the pieces in place before Dungy.

Dan Reeves doesn't get the HoF consideration he deserves. He would be a shoe in had he won one of those Superbowls, but even without that he accomplished quite a bit.

C'mon...what coach starts with nothing? Every coach comes to a team with some pieces in place. We can all point to plenty of teams loaded with talent that don't win...does that fall on the coach that put the talent there or the one who can't get them to win...it has to be one or the other. I've never bought the "good situation" argument. Yeah, it certainly helps to have good players on board when a coach arrives, but that's a SMALL part of the puzzle...look at this year's Cowboys for instance...or last years...or the last several years.

 

[Crown Royal]

The trick is to separate Jerry the GM from Jerry the owner. Jerry the GM is not a HoFer and should have been fired many times over. Jerry the owner is a different beast. He has been very influential in the continuing development of the league. There are owners that are involved and there are owners that just sit around waiting for their shared revenue checks to arrive. Jerry is highly involved in league matters. Had Jerry been around in the 1960s he would have been front and center with Lamar Hunt in the big AFL/NFL merger. He obviously doesn't have something of that magnitude to deal with, but he does work hard to ensure the NFL stays the top sport in the U.S..

Jerry's work on TV contracts, marketing concepts and sponsorship alone have made the NFL better and rich. He is undoubtedly a HOF owner.

 

[mrmojo]

Im a big Jimmy Johnson fan and thinks he deserves to be in the HOF but wont be because his HOF resume was for a short period. But this thread makes it seem like he accomplished nothing and is just a "good" coach. What I saw him do in rebuilding that team, not only into a contender, but a SB dynasty was beyond miraculous. He changed the culture and with young talent had two of the greatest teams in NFL history IMO. He had a power offense and speed defense and created the best special teams in the NFL. Now 20 years later we are still trying to recapture that magic. I'd take a "good" coach like him over a lot of the coaches currently in the HOF.

 

[joseephuss]

C'mon...what coach starts with nothing? Every coach comes to a team with some pieces in place. We can all point to plenty of teams loaded with talent that don't win...does that fall on the coach that put the talent there or the one who can't get them to win...it has to be one or the other. I've never bought the "good situation" argument. Yeah, it certainly helps to have good players on board when a coach arrives, but that's a SMALL part of the puzzle...look at this year's Cowboys for instance...or last years...or the last several years.

There are no coaches that start out with nothing if we are speaking literally, but were aren't. It is just a phrase or common term for a bad situation. The Tampa Bay Buccaneers were a "bad situation" for years. By the time Dungy arrived they weren't nearly as bad as they had been in previous seasons. Dungy's success with the Colts would have been much different if he didn't already have Peyton Manning in place, which makes that a good situation. He isn't winning playoff games if the Colts still had Jeff George around. That wouldn't have made him a better or worse coach, but it sure would have changed his record. That is why you just can't look at the numbers and look at the whole situation.

 

[LittleBoyBlue]

Jimmy Johnson 80-64 .556, 9-4 playoff record, 2 SB titles

Weeb Ewbank 130-129-7 . 502 4-1 playoff record, 1 SB title
Sid Gilman 122-99-7 .552 1-5 playoff record, no titles
Hank Stram 131-97-10 .575 5-3 playoff record, 1 SB title
Marv Levy 143-112 .561 11-8 playoff record, 4 SB appearances, no titles and he beat the man twice in the SB. Beat him like he stole something I say.

Jimmy Johnson
3 Super Bowl titles (one was not on his watch but... Well you know....)
9 years coaching

That's enough.

 

[mldardy]

Jimmy Johnson
3 Super Bowl titles (one was not on his watch but... Well you know....)
9 years coaching

That's enough.

Yeah I gotcha. Just trying to be official with it.

 

[LittleBoyBlue]

Yeah I gotcha. Just trying to be official with it.

Oh I liked your post! Kudos

 

[mldardy]

Oh I liked your post! Kudos

Thanks

 

[tyke1doe]

It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Longevity.

You can't speak of the Dallas Cowboys of the 90s, the Team of that Decade, without speaking about Jimmy Johnson.
He crafted an unprecedented draft, rebuilt a team from the ground up and made it a contender quicker than anyone had expected.
His brass persona and his take-no-prisoners attitude sent fear around the league.
"How Bout Dem Cowboys!" has been a cheer that has outlasted him and has rolled off the tongue of fans and haters (in jeers, no doubt) years since.

Jimmy Johnson DEFINITELY deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.

 

[Aikmaniac]

How do you not get in the HoF after turning around the worst team in the league to SB champs in three years...AND set up the team to win 3 out of 4 SB's?

 

[Wolfpack]

I think Jimmy was a great coach and should be in the conversation for the HOF. He was a good game day guy and got the most of out his guys. Further, Jimmy really did have a huge influence on the NFL game. He brought his new style 4-3 Miami defense to the NFL which was running mostly 2 gap 3-4 schemes or the older 4-3's. That Miami 4-3 brought speed to the front 7 like never before seen and would go on to form the core of the later Cover 2 andTampa 2 schemes. His defensive contribution to the game was as great or greater than pretty much anyone. Jimmy wasn't afraid to innovate in the X & O's.

 

[LittleBoyBlue]

It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Longevity.

You can't speak of the Dallas Cowboys of the 90s, the Team of that Decade, without speaking about Jimmy Johnson.
He crafted an unprecedented draft, rebuilt a team from the ground up and made it a contender quicker than anyone had expected.
His brass persona and his take-no-prisoners attitude sent fear around the league.
"How Bout Dem Cowboys!" has been a cheer that has outlasted him and has rolled off the tongue of fans and haters (in jeers, no doubt) years since.

Jimmy Johnson DEFINITELY deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.

You forgot the "brash" 3 inch headlines!!! Great stuff!

 

[Redball Express]

Haley needs to be in!

Jimmy should have his own wing!!!
With what we now known after the last 20 Jimmy free years what Jimmy did was on par with parting the Red friggen Sea!! Winning 2 and really 3 rings in spite of Jerry is by far the best coaching/ team building ever done in the history of sports!

Haley needs to be in!

Jimmy should have his own wing!!!
With what we now known after the last 20 Jimmy free years what Jimmy did was on par with parting the Red friggen Sea!! Winning 2 and really 3 rings in spite of Jerry is by far the best coaching/ team building ever done in the history of sports!

Its just the Anti-Cowboy bias again at work.

You don't vote in the QB, RB and WR to the Hall of Fame

and not the coach that did it all.

That's insane.

Again..there is a lot of Cowboy haters out there.

 

[tyke1doe]

You forgot the "brash" 3 inch headlines!!! Great stuff!

I thought I had included that. Yes, that was DEFINITELY a moment in NFL history. I don't think any other coach had boldly declared anything like that. Jimmy broke rank with the coaching fraternity so much so George Seifert was hopping made and so was Jerry Rice, who was uncharaceristically moody, angry and off his game. Mission Accomplished!

 

[Carolina Cowboy]

It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Longevity.

You can't speak of the Dallas Cowboys of the 90s, the Team of that Decade, without speaking about Jimmy Johnson.
He crafted an unprecedented draft, rebuilt a team from the ground up and made it a contender quicker than anyone had expected.
His brass persona and his take-no-prisoners attitude sent fear around the league.
"How Bout Dem Cowboys!" has been a cheer that has outlasted him and has rolled off the tongue of fans and haters (in jeers, no doubt) years since.

Jimmy Johnson DEFINITELY deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.

Absolutely right. Now ask yourself another question (and in that context think about flaming stars that burn bright): How much effort, energy, emotion, blood, sweat and tears were expended in that "short" period of time in Dallas? What do you think Jimmy sacrificed to build what he built while in Dallas? He gave everything he had to the Cowboys; to the point you could argue he didn't have anything else to give while in Miami. I'd love to disobey forum rules when thinking about the folks that say he doesn't belong in the HOF. My *** he doesn't belong.