Not Overly Impressed With Chance Warmack

[mmillman]

you weren't watching Warmack then. He killed everyone he was across and consistently got into linebackers.

 

[tm1119]

For the most part I agree that McCarron is inaccurate....however, against ND, he was outstanding, making all types of throws and great decisions.

As for Warmack, I don't want him. If we were going 90s style OL, then go after him with guns a blazin. However, we have a different style. We need quick, athletic, fast OL who can go sideline to sideline....

What? What kind of football are you playing?

We need o lineman who can actually block and form a decent pocket so Romo can actually throw the ball without running for his life 1st.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

you weren't watching Warmack then. He killed everyone he was across and consistently got into linebackers.

NFL LBers aren't going to stand there uncovered like ND's did.

Show me where he dominates a DT:

[youtube]kYVkEOzZkEM[/youtube]

[youtube]2N-ZIZ2VsGs[/youtube]

[youtube]qf-jzv6zOzk[/youtube]

 

[AKATheRake]

I hope the 17 teams in front of us talk themselves out of Warmack too, that way the best player in the draft falls into our laps.

I 2nd that!

Nobody in this draft dominates the line of scrimmage like Chance Warmack either offensively or defensively.

Not even Star Lotulelei.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

LBers are not on the LOS.

[youtube]kgTPMHvt3gw[/youtube]

Pass blocking started off well int he first quarter but then the GA DC got one on ones on Warmack

2nd quarter his pass blocking was awful. Gave up a sack and a hit. I counted at least two other pressures he gave up throughout the game. They abandoned the pass after that 2nd quarter until the 4th quarter.

Around the 6:20 mark there are a couple of plays where he is isoed on a DT and fails. I think there was one play throughout the game where he was isoed and drove the guy downfield.

He again was great getting off the line into LBers, great at comboing with Jones and peeling off.

He was asked to pull several times and spent more time on the ground.

I see the same player.

 

[tm1119]

LBers are not on the LOS.

[youtube]kgTPMHvt3gw[/youtube]

Pass blocking started off well int he first quarter but then the GA DC got one on ones on Warmack

2nd quarter his pass blocking was awful. Gave up a sack and a hit. I counted at least two other pressures he gave up throughout the game. They abandoned the pass after that 2nd quarter until the 4th quarter.

Around the 6:20 mark there are a couple of plays where he is isoed on a DT and fails. I think there was one play throughout the game where he was isoed and drove the guy downfield.

He again was great getting off the line into LBers, great at comboing with Jones and peeling off.

He was asked to pull several times and spent more time on the ground.

I see the same player.

What the heck are you watching and what the heck are you talking about???? I'm now 100% convinced you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about after reading that paragraph and then watching that video.

 

[burmafrd]

What the heck are you watching and what the heck are you talking about???? I'm now 100% convinced you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about after reading that paragraph and then watching that video.

fuzzy is fuzzy again

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

What the heck are you watching and what the heck are you talking about???? I'm now 100% convinced you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about after reading that paragraph and then watching that video.

That wasn't a paragraph. btw. It was a post.

Brilliant analysis, btw! Perhaps if you could articulate something other than a blanket dismissal that would help. Otherwise you will only get other confirmation queens like burm to agree with you.

AL limits what they ask him to do. They don't iso him much. They had the RG do much of that. When they did run behind him they comboed he and Jones. They didn't ask him to one on one with anybody really. When they did, he wasn't good at it. It just sounds to me like you cannot tell when Jones or the LT is helping him and when he is in a one on one.

He is a limited player that AL played to his strengths because they had talent all the way across the line. If we could get him and Jones together at 18 then fine. Otherwise I want a guy that can do all that an NFL OG is asked to do because quite frankly he cannot. We can get limited guys like the guy from KY in round 2.

 

[AKATheRake]

And Womack isn't even in the same ballpark athletically. You can tell that just by watching them move. For all of the talk of the ACC being inferior. Womack benefited more than a little from having that RT and C playing on the same line.

Warmack plays LG so I don't know how having Fluker at RT helps Warmack.

If anything it would force pressure/stunts over to the LT more than anything, as teams pressure more to the oppositions weakness' on the o-line.

Barrett Jones is a skilled center, not the athletic type and the biggest knock on him is his supposed lack of strength and mobility. Jones' strength is his knowledge/technique and flexibily along the o-line. If anything, it's best Jones plays beside a guy like Warmack.

 

[tm1119]

That wasn't a paragraph. btw. It was a post.

Brilliant analysis, btw! Perhaps if you could articulate something other than a blanket dismissal that would help. Otherwise you will only get other confirmation queens like burm to agree with you.

AL limits what they ask him to do. They don't iso him much. They had the RG do much of that. When they did run behind him they comboed he and Jones. They didn't ask him to one on one with anybody really. When they did, he wasn't good at it. It just sounds to me like you cannot tell when Jones or the LT is helping him and when he is in a one on one.

He is a limited player that AL played to his strengths because they had talent all the way across the line. If we could get him and Jones together at 18 then fine. Otherwise I want a guy that can do all that an NFL OG is asked to do because quite frankly he cannot. We can get limited guys like the guy from KY in round 2.

I'm completely dismissing your opinion because its pretty obvious you don't know what youre talking about. You pointed out a specific time in the video where Warmack "failed" and there was nothing of the sort. You clearly have no concept of what pass blocking is. A GUARD CAN NOT DRIVE BLOCK IN A PASSING SITUATION. A guard giving up some ground is completely normal on a pass, no idea what kind of football you've been watching to think otherwise.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I'm completely dismissing your opinion because its pretty obvious you don't know what youre talking about. You pointed out a specific time in the video where Warmack "failed" and there was nothing of the sort. You clearly have no concept of what pass blocking is. A GUARD CAN NOT DRIVE BLOCK IN A PASSING SITUATION. A guard giving up some ground is completely normal on a pass, no idea what kind of football you've been watching to think otherwise.

i said around the time not at that time. I think the first one was at :24 or something. There were two plays and I never said either was a passing play. What part of they abandoned the pass was hard to understand?

Perhaps you need work on reading. Do you want me to explain why people put things into different paragraphs?

I also said that in this case he was allowing sacks and hits. That wasn't giving up ground. That was he got smoked and his QB creamed. In this game he anchored a lot better.

As for taking steps, I never said that he took only one or even two steps. I said he got walked back. We can get that kind of pass protection from Bernadeau.

And lets be clear here. At no point in any of these games were teams keying off the pass. He never had to deal with that. Teams were expecting run or at least honoring it because they ran the ball or play actioned about 70% of the time. That's not hyperbole either. They ran the ball 60% of the time last year. You could count the number of times McKaren took a normal 5 step drop on one hand most games.

He has a reputation as a power guy and when he was in one on one situations he didn't do well either in the run or pass. To me, that means the reputation is not merited.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Warmack plays LG so I don't know how having Fluker at RT helps Warmack.

If anything it would force pressure/stunts over to the LT more than anything, as teams pressure more to the oppositions weakness' on the o-line.

Barrett Jones is a skilled center, not the athletic type and the biggest knock on him is his supposed lack of strength and mobility. Jones' strength is his knowledge/technique and flexibily along the o-line. If anything, it's best Jones plays beside a guy like Warmack.

Fluker helps because teams cannot load up on a side. Jones helps because he uses that technique to combo with another great technique guy in Warmack to blow DT up. Time and again they would combo block and Warmack would peel off onto a LBer. They were grat at it. He's great at driving out LB and safety trying to fill a hole and make a lane.

I am not saying that he is bad but he needs a whole lot of work in his pass blocking and he needs more power against DT at the point when he doesn't have Jones helping him. That is why I said that if I could get both that would be great. We cannot so I think he is overrated.

 

[burmafrd]

Fuzzy you do realize that you are digging yourself into an ever deeper hole here?

Not that I mind because I enjoy things like this.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Fuzzy you do realize that you are digging yourself into an ever deeper hole here?

Not that I mind because I enjoy things like this.

I give no merit to your take on my stance. You have expressed nothing resembling an argument. You just posture with nonsense like the above. I posted what I saw and you guys give nothing in contrary but generalizations.

"you don't know what youre talking about."
"you think youre an expert"
"you think you know better than all the experts"
"you are wrong"

That is as substantive as I have seen outside of jterrell. Its either that or claims about how he is great on getting up on LB and combo blocking. It's like you guys do not even read my posts. You just read "Warmack not impressed" and stop right there.

I even ask you guys "hey here are the youtubes I am watching. Can you point me to the one on one plays that he dominates his man?" What do I get in response?

"you don't know what youre talking about."
"you think youre an expert"
"you think you know better than all the experts"
"you are wrong"
"youre just digging yourself a deeper hole."

Like I said: no merit.

 

[AKATheRake]

Fluker helps because teams cannot load up on a side. Jones helps because he uses that technique to combo with another great technique guy in Warmack to blow DT up. Time and again they would combo block and Warmack would peel off onto a LBer. They were grat at it. He's great at driving out LB and safety trying to fill a hole and make a lane.

I am not saying that he is bad but he needs a whole lot of work in his pass blocking and he needs more power against DT at the point when he doesn't have Jones helping him. That is why I said that if I could get both that would be great. We cannot so I think he is overrated.

Well you questioned Warmacks athleticism in your video research provided. However you have clearly indicated he gets into the LB's and even safeties after the DT is contained. OK! You do indicate in this post that Warmack does have great technique. Regarding Jones "combo blocking" with Warmack, it's called zone blocking and that's the system Bama utilized. Zone blocking, as in the scheme we utilize on our o-line.

In your video's, be it against premier compeition and some of the best defensive players in college ie, LSU's whole DL and Georgia's Jarvis Jones and Ogletree. I take notice that Warmack on running plays seals off his gap and "contains" funneling the lineman in front of him and then moves into the next level of LB's consistantly. In pass protection, 1 on 1 I do not see him giving up a sack once. Bama's QB is absolutely atrocious when it comes to getting the ball out promptly and/or moving in the pocket. They can run on you even though you are trying to stop the run because you know their QB is throwing the game away.

Definitely the best o-line in college football. Warmack is the best of that line and it is very obvious. You're not getting into the LB's if the d-lineman is not contained, plain and simple. If Fluker is on the right the opposition will want to load the LT if he's the weakness. They don't because Warmack is there and that's why the DT's get funneled into Jones after Warmack sends them that way.

Warmack is going to start day 1 and he's going to push for the pro-bowl as a rookie. Half the lineman he's puppeted in the SEC could start on half the NFL rosters. He may be the best player in this draft and has clearly been regarded by professional evaluators as a top 3 player.

Hey, I think Jonathan Cooper is a hell of a guard too, but he's not Warmack regardless if you're running a zone or power blocking scheme.

Here's a video of Cooper who looks very good and does some really nice blocking. If Warmack is not there, I would take the kid, but not before Warmack. You rarely see Cooper against lesser competition get into the 2nd level like Warmack does.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4S5bcc0HQ0

Too answer your question where Warmack is dominating DT's. Considering it is a zone scheme he is not just winning but dominating on more than half the plays in your videos. The lineman in front of him absolutely does not impact any of those big games at all and just gets put in whatever direction Warmack wants him to be. Dominating 20% of the plays is staggering, over 50% is unheard of. Not as strong or big either, but even more polished coming into the league and is the next closest thing to what Larry Allen was coming out of any draft we've seen in years.


Good evaluating with you and thanks for the contribution.

 

[StanleySpadowski]

I give no merit to your take on my stance. You have expressed nothing resembling an argument. You just posture with nonsense like the above. I posted what I saw and you guys give nothing in contrary but generalizations.

"you don't know what youre talking about."
"you think youre an expert"
"you think you know better than all the experts"
"you are wrong"

That is as substantive as I have seen outside of jterrell. Its either that or claims about how he is great on getting up on LB and combo blocking. It's like you guys do not even read my posts. You just read "Warmack not impressed" and stop right there.

I even ask you guys "hey here are the youtubes I am watching. Can you point me to the one on one plays that he dominates his man?" What do I get in response?

"you don't know what youre talking about."
"you think youre an expert"
"you think you know better than all the experts"
"you are wrong"
"youre just digging yourself a deeper hole."

Like I said: no merit.

Don't forget what Mark Twain said about arguing with idiots...


It would be interesting to have everyone grade one of those games and compare but most calling you out don't bother to do the research it would require.

 

[Idgit]

I give no merit to your take on my stance. You have expressed nothing resembling an argument. You just posture with nonsense like the above. I posted what I saw and you guys give nothing in contrary but generalizations.

"you don't know what youre talking about."
"you think youre an expert"
"you think you know better than all the experts"
"you are wrong"

That is as substantive as I have seen outside of jterrell. Its either that or claims about how he is great on getting up on LB and combo blocking. It's like you guys do not even read my posts. You just read "Warmack not impressed" and stop right there.

I even ask you guys "hey here are the youtubes I am watching. Can you point me to the one on one plays that he dominates his man?" What do I get in response?

"you don't know what youre talking about."
"you think youre an expert"
"you think you know better than all the experts"
"you are wrong"
"youre just digging yourself a deeper hole."

Like I said: no merit.

It doesn't matter, you're doing it right.

And the exchange with jterrell--who's always a great poster--and others is really good stuff. Every thread's going to have popcorn posts alongside the meat and potatoes posts.

I don't watch much college football, so these exchanges are gold as far as I'm concerned.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Well you questioned Warmacks athleticism in your video research provided. However you have clearly indicated he gets into the LB's and even safeties after the DT is contained. OK! You do indicate in this post that Warmack does have great technique. Regarding Jones "combo blocking" with Warmack, it's called zone blocking and that's the system Bama utilized. Zone blocking, as in the scheme we utilize on our o-line.

In your video's, be it against premier compeition and some of the best defensive players in college ie, LSU's whole DL and Georgia's Jarvis Jones and Ogletree. I take notice that Warmack on running plays seals off his gap and "contains" funneling the lineman in front of him and then moves into the next level of LB's consistantly. In pass protection, 1 on 1 I do not see him giving up a sack once. Bama's QB is absolutely atrocious when it comes to getting the ball out promptly and/or moving in the pocket. They can run on you even though you are trying to stop the run because you know their QB is throwing the game away.

Definitely the best o-line in college football. Warmack is the best of that line and it is very obvious. You're not getting into the LB's if the d-lineman is not contained, plain and simple. If Fluker is on the right the opposition will want to load the LT if he's the weakness. They don't because Warmack is there and that's why the DT's get funneled into Jones after Warmack sends them that way.

Warmack is going to start day 1 and he's going to push for the pro-bowl as a rookie. Half the lineman he's puppeted in the SEC could start on half the NFL rosters. He may be the best player in this draft and has clearly been regarded by professional evaluators as a top 3 player.

Hey, I think Jonathan Cooper is a hell of a guard too, but he's not Warmack regardless if you're running a zone or power blocking scheme.

Here's a video of Cooper who looks very good and does some really nice blocking. If Warmack is not there, I would take the kid, but not before Warmack. You rarely see Cooper against lesser competition get into the 2nd level like Warmack does.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4S5bcc0HQ0

Too answer your question where Warmack is dominating DT's. Considering it is a zone scheme he is not just winning but dominating on more than half the plays in your videos. The lineman in front of him absolutely does not impact any of those big games at all and just gets put in whatever direction Warmack wants him to be. Dominating 20% of the plays is staggering, over 50% is unheard of. Not as strong or big either, but even more polished coming into the league and is the next closest thing to what Larry Allen was coming out of any draft we've seen in years.


Good evaluating with you and thanks for the contribution.

I have repeatedly said that he was well coached and that he had good technique. He doesn't have particularly good athleticism. What he is good at is getting to the second level and creating a lane. If the LB does not move laterally then he just walls them off.

If you ask him to get out of the box then he spends most of his time on the ground.

I'm not asking him to dominate most plays or even some plays. In those 4 games when he was on an iso play, he 'dominated' once that I saw ie drive and turn. He normally got little to no push and instead stood his man up most times. That's not winning; thats just not getting any push. He's has average power in that regard.

What he is not very good at is pass blocking. This is not a passing team. As I pointed out he never had to deal with an all out pass rush because they never got more than one score behind. They ran the ball 60% of the time. And when they did pass it they most often ran PA. Despite these advantages he still was porous.

In that GA for example, McKaren -and yes I know thats spelled wrong- passed only 21 times. He gave up a sack, a QB hit and two pressures. That is downright awful. Against TN and LSU he got driven back into the QBs lap forcing McKaren to scramble when he had a one on one. ND was a rout yet in the handful of traditional pass plays he still didn't set well.

When you know that you are going to pass and the opponent is terrified of the run and you STILL have issues sitting down and anchoring? You still give free runs at your QB?

The NFL is a passing league. If he goes to KC or Washington then sure they can utilize him and maybe he has a shot to beat out the best guards in the game. I heard that same garbage about DeCastro last year though and he was as good a technician and a better athlete. Like Warmack his power was not as good as advertised and he didn't even sniff the pro bowl.

This is the NCAA ie AAA talent and he is supposed to step up in the bigs and beat out Mankins and Iupati?

 

[honyock]

2nd quarter his pass blocking was awful. Gave up a sack and a hit. I counted at least two other pressures he gave up throughout the game. They abandoned the pass after that 2nd quarter until the 4th quarter.

Around the 6:20 mark there are a couple of plays where he is isoed on a DT and fails. I think there was one play throughout the game where he was isoed and drove the guy downfield.

He again was great getting off the line into LBers, great at comboing with Jones and peeling off.

He was asked to pull several times and spent more time on the ground.

I see the same player.

Thanks for the thread and links, Fuzzy. Nice discussion.

I just watched the GA video and I didn't see what you saw. In pass blocking, I saw the sack and a pressure in the 2nd quarter. His man got to the QB on the sack at about the 4 second mark. He definitely let him get by, but part of that was McCarron hanging onto the ball too long. The pressure, he definitely got pushed back into the qb like you said. I didn't see any pressures or qb hits anywhere else in the game.

His guy hit the qb at the 6 second mark on one play, but the qb was already wrapped up by two other linemen and his guy just came up and piled on late. His guy pressured McCarron on one other play, but it was a screen and Warmack had already slid out to block for the screen. I thought that other than the two plays in the second quarter, he looked solid in pass protection.

I actually was surprised at how athletic he looked for a guy with his build. He found and made contact with quicker linebackers and safeties in the second level consistently. I didn't see many whiffs there. Where I saw him get overextended and end up on the ground more often was when he was pulling. I didn't see that enough in the videos you posted to know whether to make much of it. It was a pretty small sample size, and given how good he looked in finding and engaging quick defenders at the second level, it just didn't show up as a worry spot for me.

I did think that Cooper looked better in pass protection, but it's hard to compare the two very accurately - Warmack was playing against linemen with a different athletic/skill level than Cooper. Cooper definitely looked more fluid in space. But he had a couple of whiffs/awkward looking efforts when pulling as well. He did stay on his feet more often and kept from getting overextended in the limited snaps I saw for him.

I haven no idea of whether Warmack warrants all the best-in-several-years talk, and I know that's part of your point in the thread. If I had to pick between the two, I might lean slightly towards Cooper with the Cowboys being so pass happy. He'd look good at LG and let Livings move to the right side. But I'd be completely happy with either of them.

 

[BAT]

What a great dilemma for the Cowboys. Either Warmack or Cooper would be a significant upgrade for the Cowboys.

But the best value (Cowboys can trade down and pick up another pick) and player with the most upside is probably Fluker. Fluker is agile enough to be successful in pass pro as well as nasty in the run game. May not be a pro bowler at RT but could be one as an OG. Fluker is bigger, better pass protector and more athletic than Warmack, and a more devastating run blocker than Cooper. He is monstrous but has nice agility and feet for his size. And I love his intensity and nastiness.