Passing on First Down

[percyhoward]

Some have said that Payton didn't call enough passes on first down in the Seattle game, and that if he'd followed the game plan used against Philly, we'd have had more success. But when you compare the first halves of the two games, the run-pass ratio was actually pretty balanced in both games.

It was the results of the plays that were different. And results are what tend to get remembered.

vs Phi
21 first down plays:
11 passes
10 runs

(4 of those passes came with less than 2:00 left in the half. Until then, we ran 9 times on first down and passed 6 times.)

On 11 called pass plays, Bledsoe was 8 of 10 for 126 yards and a TD. There was also a 9 yard scramble. Bledsoe's rating on first down: 152

The Seattle game, in the first half
17 first down plays: 8 passes, 8 runs, 1 fumbled snap.

On 8 called pass plays, Bledsoe was 3 of 7 for 64 yards and an INT. There was a sack of Barber on the RB pass. Bledsoe's rating on first down: 36.3 Thrown in the sack and the rating goes down to 27.

 

[AdamJT13]

Payton was calling the wrong pass plays. It's all his fault. Yeah, that's it.

 

[BlueWave]

The difference is, we probably had at least four or even five receivers going out in routes against the Eagles.

Against the Seashawks, we were limited to most often only three, because we had to protect our inept Tackles. Less receivers equals more defenders for each receiver which equals less open receivers. Get used to it.

It's funny, there is always more to the game of football than what it appears to be on the surface.

 

[Nors]

In Seattle it appeared to me Glenn was on the sideline some with 2 TE sets.....

 

[Kevinicus]

Had a lot more playaction in the Philly game too.

 

[BlueWave]

Had a lot more playaction in the Philly game too.

That's where we really miss Jones. They have to respect what Jones can do on playaction. That extra second means a lot. I simply don't think they even are concerned with A-Train or Barber at this point. They will take their chances and key on the pass. Thompson could be as effective in playaction as Jones is, because he would be a threat. But, we have not used him enough to establish that threat.

 

[TheHustler]

In Seattle it appeared to me Glenn was on the sideline some with 2 TE sets.....

Yeah, I noticed it too, Glenn was out of a lot of plays. He's our deep threat, he needs to be in the majority of offensive plays.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Some have said that Payton didn't call enough passes on first down in the Seattle game, and that if he'd followed the game plan used against Philly, we'd have had more success. But when you compare the first halves of the two games, the run-pass ratio was actually pretty balanced in both games.

It was the results of the plays that were different. And results are what tend to get remembered.

vs Phi
21 first down plays:
11 passes
10 runs

(4 of those passes came with less than 2:00 left in the half. Until then, we ran 9 times on first down and passed 6 times.)

On 11 called pass plays, Bledsoe was 8 of 10 for 126 yards and a TD. There was also a 9 yard scramble. Bledsoe's rating on first down: 152

The Seattle game, in the first half
17 first down plays: 8 passes, 8 runs, 1 fumbled snap.

On 8 called pass plays, Bledsoe was 3 of 7 for 64 yards and an INT. There was a sack of Barber on the RB pass. Bledsoe's rating on first down: 36.3 Thrown in the sack and the rating goes down to 27.

I'd like to see what the ratios where on first down in or near the red zone.

The one time they did get stuffed in the red zone, they went with the ole predictable run, run, run.

Not wanting to throw on first or second down in the red zone is what's killing me. I've been saying all along that the playcalling outside of the red zone has been pretty good. It's just a headscratcher that Payton goes away from that once he gets in the red zone.

Rich....

 

[Nors]

Its the killer instinct or lack of thereof that cost us Seattle game.

 

[gbrittain]

Its the killer instinct or lack of thereof that cost us Seattle game.

Were just killer, no instinct!

 

[Kilyin]

60% run 40% pass in Seahawks game

54% run 46% pass in Eagles game

That might not sound like alot, but that's a significant difference. Alot less playaction, and passing on first and second down couldn't have been as high in Seahawks game. (I didn't verify that though)

 

[AdamJT13]

I'd like to see what the ratios where on first down in or near the red zone.

We ran the ball on every first down in the red zone against Seattle, just as we did against Philadelphia.

 

[Nors]

60% run 40% pass in Seahawks game

54% run 46% pass in Eagles game

That might not sound like alot, but that's a significant difference. Alot less playaction, and passing on first and second down couldn't have been as high in Seahawks game. (I didn't verify that though)

What was ratio in first half when we put what a 27 spot on board? Bledsoe had what 257 at half? The run mix was skewed back in 2nd half when we rarely passed.

 

[Rack]

Payton was calling the wrong pass plays. It's all his fault. Yeah, that's it.

That's not it.


Against the eagles we called "aggressive" pass plays.

Against the Seahawks we called "Conservative" pass plays.

 

[Kilyin]

We ran the ball on every first down in the red zone against Seattle, just as we did against Philadelphia.

We also went for it on 4th down twice against Philly in their territory, once in the redzone. On all three touchdowns against them, we started the drive throwing the ball on first down. Against Seattle, the only touchdown we scored came from a drive that started with throwing the ball on first down.

 

[AdamJT13]

We also went for it on 4th down twice against Philly in their territory, once in the redzone. On both touchdowns against them, we started the drive throwing the ball on first down. Against Seattle, the only touchdown we scored came from a drive that started with throwing the ball on first down.

If you have an 11-play, 70-yard drive, how is it relevant that the first play was a 6-yard pass? Or if you have a 10-play, 74-yard drive that includes seven rushes, what difference does it make if the first play was a pass?

 

[Kilyin]

If you have an 11-play, 70-yard drive, how is it relevant that the first play was a 6-yard pass? Or if you have a 10-play, 74-yard drive that includes seven rushes, what difference does it make if the first play was a pass?

Maybe it builds Drew's confidence. Running twice and then passing on third down is one of the worst situations to put a QB in. I really don't have an explanation aside from that. I haven't gone through and verified it, but it sure seems like our drives end in punts more when we start off running. Most of our scoring drives seem to start off with passing if not on first down (and that includes playaction), then second down. The last 5 touchdown drives the Cowboys had started off with a pass play on first or second down.

 

[LaTunaNostra]

Well, Bill has said often enough his MO is not to put his QB into third and long situations. It's simplistic enough, but he's quoted the mind numbing stats enough to have brainwashed me into believing at least, that a lousy three or four yards on first down render a doomed second down pass not nearly as fatal. The core of his O is his tailback and the play action he makes possible.

He's not gonna change now.

I wish someone would or could get hold of detailed 1996 Pats stats. That legendary year when the Parcells pass-run ratio tipped in favor of the pass, and successfully. Just to see if he was still grinding out those runs on first down more often than not.

My bet is he was.

 

[percyhoward]

Not wanting to throw on first or second down in the red zone is what's killing me. I've been saying all along that the playcalling outside of the red zone has been pretty good. It's just a headscratcher that Payton goes away from that once he gets in the red zone.

I thought of TT up the middle three straight times against the Skins when I read that. That was mindboggling.

Other than that though, I'd be surprised if we passed any less than any other team in the red zone, particularly when protecting a lead.

 

[AdamJT13]

Other than that though, I'd be surprised if we passed any less than any other team in the red zone, particularly when protecting a lead.

We have the eighth-most pass attempts inside the 20 this season, partly because we have the third-most plays inside the 20.

And there are nine teams that have a higher percentage of running plays inside the 20 than we do -- Indianapolis, Denver, Atlanta, San Diego, Seattle, Kansas City, Houston, Jacksonville and the Jets.