Patriots '11/12 snap counts and our offense

[Galian Beast]

I'm going to draw a comparison between the Patriots 2011 offensive snap count, and how it might relate to our offense in 2013.

TE Rob Gronkowski -- 94.6% (Jason Witten)
WR Wes Welker -- 89.2% (Miles Austin)
TE Aaron Hernandez -- 77.1% (Gavin Escobar)
WR Deion Branch -- 76.0% (Dez Bryant)
RB BenJarvus Green-Ellis -- 34.4% (DeMarco Murray)
RB Danny Woodhead -- 33.0% (Joseph Randle)
WR Chad Ochocinco -- 26.3% (Terrance Williams)
RB Stevan Ridley -- 14.0% (Lance Dunbar)
WR Julian Edelman -- 13.3% (Dwayne Harris)
TE Nate Solder -- 11.1% (Jeremy Parnell)
WR Tiquan Underwood -- 7.2% (Cole Beasley)
RB Kevin Faulk -- 6.5% (Phillip Tanner)
TE Dan Gronkowski -- 4.1% (James Hanna)
WR Matthew Slater -- 3.3% (Danny Coale)
-----------------------------------------------------
TE Thomas Welch -- 2.7%
RB Shane Vereen -- 1.9%
FB Lousaka Polite -- 1.3%
WR Taylor Price -- 1.3%
FB Dane Fletcher -- 1.0%
FB Donald Thomas -- 0.8%
TE Matt Light -- 0.3%
FB Ryan Wendell -- 0.3%
FB Dan Connolly -- 0.1%
TE Sebastian Vollmer -- 0.1%
--------------------------------------------------------

Here are the 2012 numbers (note that gronkowski and hernandez dealt with injuries)


WR Wes Welker - 1127 (1074 offense, 53 SpT) (Miles Austin)
WR Brandon Lloyd - 1042 (1038 offense, 4 SpT) (Dez Bryant)
TE Rob Gronkowski - 809 (731 offense, 78 SpT) (Jason Witten)
TE Aaron Hernandez - 567 (565 offense, 2 SpT) (Gavin Escobar)
RB Stevan Ridley - 550 (549 offense, 1 SpT) (DeMarco Murray)
RB Danny Woodhead - 483 (417 offense, 66 SpT) (Joseph Randle)
WR Deion Branch - 479 (474 offense, 5 SpT) (Terrance Williams)
TE Daniel Fells - 406 (307 offense, 99 SpT) (James Hanna)
TE Michael Hoomanawanui - 371 (290 offense, 81 SpT) (????)
WR Julian Edelman - 369 (295 offense, 74 SpT) (Dwayne Harris)
WR Matthew Slater - 330 (42 offense, 288 SpT) (Cole Beasley)
RB Brandon Bolden - 264 (99 offense, 165 SpT) (Lance Dunbar)
RB Shane Vereen - 199 (161 offense, 38 SpT) (Phillip Tanner)
TE Visanthe Shiancoe - 57 (57 offense) (????)
WR Donte' Stallworth - 20 (20 offense) (Danny Coale)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
FB Lex Hilliard - 18 (9 offense, 9 SpT)
RB James Develin - 12 (12 SpT) (???)
WR Kamar Aiken - 8 (3 offense, 5 SpT)
WR Greg Salas - 6 (6 offense)
TE Kellen Winslow - 4 (4 offense)

Note that this doesn't chart offensive linemen, who for the most part are expected to play 100% of the snaps, same with the quarterback.

There are a few similarities with the Patriots offense, that our organization has kind of hinted towards.

The key being the 12 personnel and similar variations. A lot of people are still pouting about the drafting of Escobar. And I'm not sure that he gets 77% of the snaps here. We're a bit more wide receiver centric than new england is, simply because we have better receivers than they do (which is to our credit).

I think getting Williams, allows us to put Austin almost exclusively in the slot. I think they got Ocho Cinco that year mainly so that they wouldn't have to use Welker outside. Last year they replaced Ocho Cinco with Brandon Lloyd. And you saw Welker not really on the outside much. I think using Austin exclusively in the inside is going to really help out his production. But depending on how much Williams or Escobar plays it could end up being a 50 50 split. I really just think it'll be a lot more creative than Ogletree/Harris/Phillips.

The other thing the Patriots do a lot is go to the spread. They might have 4 receiver sets, but then they put the running back towards the line as well. I think we really have the running backs for that. Both Murray and Randle have pretty extensive experience catching the ball.

The other interesting thing the Patriots do is use that 3rd tackle as a tight end. I think we'll do something similar with Parnell or with Hanna, when we want that 13 look. I think that will really open things up as well.

Hurry up is also a big deal. I think we were a lot more successful with the hurry up. And the Patriots certainly use it to create more mismatches. It makes the defense show what they intend to do, and Romo like Brady is a quarterback who if they know what you're doing, he will rip you apart. I think having a successful 12 is going to help us a lot there.

I think you can notice by some of their injuries issues, it really helps to have depth at skill positions. I'm not sure if we do RBC, or we let Murray handle the majority of the carries again. I think we might be more likely to let him split carries depending on how Randle comes into things.

 

[Blue Eyed Devil]

I really appreciate the effort and dedication to the boys but the Cowboys offense is nothing like the Patriots' offense.

We won't be running a running-back-by-comitee situation, Murray will clearly be the lead back. Dez Bryant is the #1 on this team and will see the most snaps, Miles Austin will see more than Deion Branch, and Terrance Williams is no Chad Ochocinco to say the very least.

THe offense that the 2013 Cowboys will most try to represent will be the 2008 Cowboys. Just watch games from that season and you'll see a lot of the plays you'll see this season, I promise you.

 

[Galian Beast]

I really appreciate the effort and dedication to the boys but the Cowboys offense is nothing like the Patriots' offense.

We won't be running a running-back-by-comitee situation, Murray will clearly be the lead back. Dez Bryant is the #1 on this team and will see the most snaps, Miles Austin will see more than Deion Branch, and Terrance Williams is no Chad Ochocinco to say the very least.

THe offense that the 2013 Cowboys will most try to represent will be the 2008 Cowboys. Just watch games from that season and you'll see a lot of the plays you'll see this season, I promise you.

I think that there are certainly a lot of similarities to what we're trying to do. RBC is a little misleading, it doesn't mean that Murray isn't going to get the lionshare of carries, rather that the RB2 and RB3 get more carries than normal. Ridley took about 60% of the running back carries for the Patriots last year. Murray has never had much more than 50% of the carries, because he hasn't been able to stay healthy. I think cutting those carries early, might preserve him, and might be what they are thinking with Randle.

I didn't say Dez wasn't the #1 receiver, I was merely comparing roles. I think Dez will be our primary outside receiver, while Austin will primarily be used in the slot, and Williams will be primarily used outside.

As I said, we are certainly more WR centric than New England. I made note of that. Ocho Cinco did nothing for the Patriots, which is why he was promptly replaced after a year with Brandon Lloyd.

I would say that it's certainly going to be different from the 08 cowboys, where Bennett really wasn't a focal point in the passing game, where Escobar will be. We didn't really have much of a 3 receiver set going. This lead to significant complaints from the receiving corps if you recall. Tashard Choice also wasn't very much of a complementary back to Marion Barber. I don't see the comparison to be honest.

 

[Idgit]

I really appreciate the effort and dedication to the boys but the Cowboys offense is nothing like the Patriots' offense.

We won't be running a running-back-by-comitee situation, Murray will clearly be the lead back. Dez Bryant is the #1 on this team and will see the most snaps, Miles Austin will see more than Deion Branch, and Terrance Williams is no Chad Ochocinco to say the very least.

THe offense that the 2013 Cowboys will most try to represent will be the 2008 Cowboys. Just watch games from that season and you'll see a lot of the plays you'll see this season, I promise you.

I don't know about the 2008 comparison, but, while I agree that we won't be as much like the NE offense as some would suggest, it is pretty interesting to see the snap counts by position for a team that runs a lot of 12 sets. Even the third and fourth TEs are getting ~15% of the offensive snaps there. That's pretty interesting in and of itself. And if Escobar is on the field for three out of four offensive snaps, I don't think too many will be complaining about the utility of that 2nd round pick.

 

[Galian Beast]

I don't know about the 2008 comparison, but, while I agree that we won't be as much like the NE offense as some would suggest, it is pretty interesting to see the snap counts by position for a team that runs a lot of 12 sets. Even the third and fourth TEs are getting ~15% of the offensive snaps there. That's pretty interesting in and of itself. And if Escobar is on the field for three out of four offensive snaps, I don't think too many will be complaining about the utility of that 2nd round pick.

That's precisely my point. If you're running a 3-4, you need one starter at nose tackle, and probably a back up. If you're running a 4-3, you need two starters at defensive tackle, and at least one back up if not two.

By that same token, if you're running a 12 rather than a 21 (which is standard in most people's minds) or even an 11, you're going to need two starting caliber tight ends.

People say that because we missed on Bennett and Fasano that we shouldn't have drafted Escobar, but the way I see it, it's like saying we should have drafted Anthony Spencer because we missed on Bobby Carpenter. Except that you still need to fill that position with a player. Their anger stems more from the fact that the 2 tight end scheme isn't necessarily traditional. But we've been trying to run it here since 2003.

The caveat still being that we are still a team with talented wide receivers. And I think they will continue to be showcased.

It'll be interesting to see how we balance things out between Escobar and Williams. And whether or not we see Witten coming off the field more next year.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

That's precisely my point. If you're running a 3-4, you need one starter at nose tackle, and probably a back up. If you're running a 4-3, you need two starters at defensive tackle, and at least one back up if not two.

By that same token, if you're running a 12 rather than a 21 (which is standard in most people's minds) or even an 11, you're going to need two starting caliber tight ends.

People say that because we missed on Bennett and Fasano that we shouldn't have drafted Escobar, but the way I see it, it's like saying we should have drafted Anthony Spencer because we missed on Bobby Carpenter. Except that you still need to fill that position with a player. Their anger stems more from the fact that the 2 tight end scheme isn't necessarily traditional. But we've been trying to run it here since 2003.

The caveat still being that we are still a team with talented wide receivers. And I think they will continue to be showcased.

It'll be interesting to see how we balance things out between Escobar and Williams. And whether or not we see Witten coming off the field more next year.

If you run a two Tight End offense, then you actually need 4 TEs, at a minimum, on the team and they all should be good enough to start.

 

[Galian Beast]

If you run a two Tight End offense, then you actually need 4 TEs, at a minimum, on the team and they all should be good enough to start.

I agree. Well I'm not sure the 4th is going to be starting caliber. That gets to the point where you start relying more on wide receivers.

 

[Ren]

The Escobar pick was my least favorite in the whole draft, at best he's the 4th or 5th option in the passing game and he's not much of a blocker so i just can't see how he's going to produce enough to warrant such a high pick. Same problem Bennett and Fasano had here

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I agree. Well I'm not sure the 4th is going to be starting caliber. That gets to the point where you start relying more on wide receivers.

In a two TE offense, you typically have two different TEs who provide different things to your offense. One guy usually stretches the Seam and one guy who works more of the soft middle, if you will. Because of this, it usually requires two different types of TEs. You almost have to have two of each to be able to practice correctly and in case of injury, to play. This is why I say you need 4 that can start for you. Now, some teams are lucky enough to have a TE that can actually play either role and if that's the case, then you can probably get away with just 3 but you better keep that guy healthy.

 

[Galian Beast]

In a two TE offense, you typically have two different TEs who provide different things to your offense. One guy usually stretches the Seam and one guy who works more of the soft middle, if you will. Because of this, it usually requires two different types of TEs. You almost have to have two of each to be able to practice correctly and in case of injury, to play. This is why I say you need 4 that can start for you. Now, some teams are lucky enough to have a TE that can actually play either role and if that's the case, then you can probably get away with just 3 but you better keep that guy healthy.

Which is why my point is, if players don't stay healthy, rather than continue a primarily two tight end offense, you begin going with other looks, such as three receiver sets.

The Escobar pick was my least favorite in the whole draft, at best he's the 4th or 5th option in the passing game and he's not much of a blocker so i just can't see how he's going to produce enough to warrant such a high pick. Same problem Bennett and Fasano had here

That's because you fail to realize

1)That extra option can completely open up an offense, by forcing the defense to adjust to it. Greatest evidence of this was Laurent Robinson.

2)Nothing similar about Bennett/Fasano and Escobar. And you're fooling yourself by making the comparison.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Which is why my point is, if players don't stay healthy, rather than continue a primarily two tight end offense, you begin going with other looks, such as three receiver sets.

This is what you do if you have no choice in the matter. That's not a plan as to how you should address your roster. There is a difference. If you are going to run a 4 TE set, then you design your team around that offensive scheme. You don't plan to switch to a 3 WR offense because you don't want to carry the talent needed to make a 2 TE offense work. That's a recipe for disaster IMO.

 

[Galian Beast]

This is what you do if you have no choice in the matter. That's not a plan as to how you should address your roster. There is a difference. If you are going to run a 4 TE set, then you design your team around that offensive scheme. You don't plan to switch to a 3 WR offense because you don't want to carry the talent needed to make a 2 TE offense work. That's a recipe for disaster IMO.

That is the realistic nature of the league. We have more wide receivers than tight ends, and in terms of legitimate weapons it's not even close.

The 2TE set isn't the hallmark of any teams offense to such a degree, with the exception of the Patriots. And even they don't have suitable replacements for Gronkowski and Hernandez.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

That is the realistic nature of the league. We have more wide receivers than tight ends, and in terms of legitimate weapons it's not even close.

The 2TE set isn't the hallmark of any teams offense to such a degree, with the exception of the Patriots. And even they don't have suitable replacements for Gronkowski and Hernandez.

This is not correct. The two TE offense has, in fact, been the hallmark for offenses in the past and still is for a select few teams. Currently, the Pats, as you mention.

The question of what we have as legitimate weapons is not relevant to the discussion. If you are going to run a 2 TE offense, this is what you should have. What we have on our roster, currently, has no barring on the accuracy of that statement.

If your saying that you want to run a subset of a 2 TE package to change it up, then that's a different thing but what that is not is a 2 TE offense. It's a wrinkle.

If you want to run a two TE offense, you should have 4 TEs that can start for you, plain and simple.

 

[Galian Beast]

This is not correct. The two TE offense has, in fact, been the hallmark for offenses in the past and still is for a select few teams. Currently, the Pats, as you mention.

The question of what we have as legitimate weapons is not relevant to the discussion. If you are going to run a 2 TE offense, this is what you should have. What we have on our roster, currently, has no barring on the accuracy of that statement.

If your saying that you want to run a subset of a 2 TE package to change it up, then that's a different thing but what that is not is a 2 TE offense. It's a wrinkle.

If you want to run a two TE offense, you should have 4 TEs that can start for you, plain and simple.

The 2TE set isn't the hallmark of any teams offense to such a degree

No team has 4 legitimate tight ends. Most teams don't even have 2.

 

[Deep_Freeze]

Which is why my point is, if players don't stay healthy, rather than continue a primarily two tight end offense, you begin going with other looks, such as three receiver sets.

Well I can understand the point you are making, but lets say Witten is out one week for an injury, you don't want to have to change your entire offense to a 3 WR based system for that week just cause of that injury. A team should have enough depth to be able to run any system they choose, whether its 3 WRs or 2 TEs.

In our case, right now it appears we have more WR depth, but with Hanna and now Escobar that could change rapidly. I think the difference is we just haven't had success with TEs other than Witten, so we don't see the reason to have depth at the position. I really hope the switch is successful though cause it could also help our running game, but I just hope people don't expect it from day 1 and will give it time to develop as Escobar develops as a player.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

The 2TE set isn't the hallmark of any teams offense to such a degree

No team has 4 legitimate tight ends. Most teams don't even have 2.

Most teams don't run a two TE Offense but those that do have depth at the position. If you don't think that's true, that's fine. We just don't agree.

 

[CATCH17]

Forget all the 2 TE stuff. Thats nice and all.


I just want to see us play with the same sense of urgency that they play with.

It's like they play like their life depends on them scoring and they can't wait to do it.


We mope around for 3 1/2 quarters before we finally feel that sense of urgency and then we usually start lighting teams up.