Video: PFT: Is Troy Aikman or Roger Staubach the best Cowboys QB ever?

[kskboys]

Anyone on this board who puts any QB ahead of Staubach and Aikman is a total dumba$$!

Anyone who doesn't comprehend how good Meredith was is a double total dumba$$!!!!

 

[Blackrain]

I’ve read several fans mentioning Tony Romo in this discussion. I respect all my fellow Cowboys fans and their opinions. But any mention of Tony Romo being better than either Roger or Troy is either lacking respect for prior greatness or just lazily overvaluing the era they have watched.

Tony Romo was a very good QB in his day. At his best, he was one of the 10 best in the league at that time. Probably 2007-14. I respect Tony but greatness is never a word I would associate with him. He had opportunities to be great, but did not or could not seize them.

If you ever saw Troy Aikman throw a 20 yard out on a dime or see his timing with Michael Irvin on that unstoppable slant route, his greatness as an all time great at accuracy is almost unmatched.

If you ever saw Roger Staubach make unbelievable plays in comebacks to win playoff games or see his undaunted courage to throw his body all out to score a TD in any game was inspiring. Roger Staubach was the most inspiring player ever to wear the Star. His teammates respected him above all others. Watch the NFL films “A football life” on Roger. Some of his former teammates still tear up when they talk about what a GREAT player he was and what a GREAT man he is off the field.

Roger is the greatest. Troy a close second. Please keep Tony Romo in a respected place saved for ROH members like Don Meredith, who was also a very good Cowboys QB but cannot be mentioned in the same sentence with Roger and Troy.

Thanks Bob for a great perspective saved me from saying something like if your not old enough to have watched all the QBs in the discussion its probably better not to comment LOL

 

[Blackrain]

Anyone who doesn't comprehend how good Meredith was is a double total dumba$$!!!!

Yep cant even imagine a QB from todays era surviving the Ice Bowl

 

[RoboQB]

Yes but you have to take in consideration the rules also, they are allowed to bang the quarterbacks head into the ground.

I believe the comparison was Staubach and Aikman.
In Aikman's era, they absolutely did bang QBs heads into the ground.

Even in Romo's time, they purposely broke collar bones of QBs.

I love Roger Staubach. He's my hero's hero. But he would've been beaten to death
in Philly in the early 90s.

 

[RoboQB]

Anyone who doesn't comprehend how good Meredith was is a double total dumba$$!!!!

I'm too young to have had the pleasure of watching Dandy Don Meredith play but I loved him
on Monday Night Football.

I've also read and watched just about everything available concerning his career, as is my duty as a fan (listen up, kids).
Not saying I retained it all... lol.

If two plays go differently in his career, Dandy Don retires as a 2- time champion. He also probably plays
longer. And every SB would the presentation of the Landry Trophy.


I didn't post a list but I have Meredith and White very close.
White is one loose jersey tackle of Drew Pearson from being looked at differently.
We would've killed the Bengals in the SB.

 

[Kevinicus]

Dude. You're on the freakin' internet. Do some research... smh/lol
"You damn kids get off the lawn ".... lol

I'm not gonna go watch Staubach's entire history. Highlights are just highlights.

 

[JoeKing]

I'd put Romo in there b/c he holds most of the franchise QB records, he ranks #5 all-time in QBR, and he had the handicap of Garret his entire career.

You forgot to mention he's not a half bad football analyst in the booth.

 

[G2]

Anyone who doesn't comprehend how good Meredith was is a double total dumba$$!!!!

So are you suggesting he was better than either in this subject?

 

[Diehardblues]

Anyone who doesn't comprehend how good Meredith was is a double total dumba$$!!!!

It’s difficult to appreciate what you didn’t see unfolding. Watching film or reviewing stats doesn’t describe the emotion and effects of the time.

I did my college thesis on the Great Depression conducting extensive research but my interviews with my parents, grandparents and family members on their experiences living thru it were the most impressive to my professor who had it published in school paper.

The point is we can all study the facts and materials but there’s no substitute for living thru the effects and impacts while it unfolds.

I’m not really interested in hearing from anyone comparing these eras QB’s unless they lived it.

It’s not just about what these QB’s accomplished with the team or their individual stats . It’s about who did we think was the more prolific QB and their impact to the team.

The Cowboys have been very fortunate to have so many great QB’s in their history with so many to argue over. Its an impressive list. We’ve had 5 QB’s who have led us to championships appearances. 4 of them under one HC. No other franchise or HC can make that statement.

 

[INCowboysFan]

A quick study of a football player's body type comparison from 1975 to 1995 should help to elaborate.

Not to mention that the Steelers were horrible in the 60's.

 

[sean10mm]

Spearing was legal for most of Staubach's career. It was only banned in 1976.

On the other hand there weren't a lot of JJ Watt looking super mutants in the 1970s either. You had some big dudes and some fast dudes, but not as many of either one, and hardly anybody that was both those things.

 

[MichaelValentino]

A quick study of a football player's body type comparison from 1975 to 1995 should help to elaborate.

We often hear of the difference between yesterday's football player and today's. And there is some merit to this argument. A little physics settles this argument.

I compared a 260 lb DE from the 60s-70s to a 285 DE from the 90s to the present. A 40-yd dash will not produce meaningful results, largely because when using kinematic equations (as I did), it over-estimates final velocity (at 40 yd) and acceleration (the assumption being that acceleration is constant when using the equations). So, I took a 10-yard split and assumed today's top DEs can run a 1.6 sec split. Assuming today's DE runs a 40 somewhere around 0.3 sec faster, I assumed a 10-yard split of 1.9 sec for the 60s/70s player. I converted from English to SI units and ran my calculations.

I then compared kinetic energy and force generated by each player running unimpeded at full speed and making contact with a stationary player (e.g., DE runs 10 yards at full speed and explodes into the QB). KE = 1/2 * mass * velocity^2. F = mass * acceleration.

Results:

1960s/70s DE 260 lb top speed at 10 yd = 9.62 m/sec KE = 5459 Joules F = 598 Newtons
Current DE 285 lb top speed at 10 yd = 11.43 m/sec KE = 8447 Joules F = 924 Newtons

At the increased mass and velocity (and acceleration), today's DE would generate roughly 55% more kinetic energy and force.

But those are just numbers, and probably boring to most.

That said, it's folly to think of Roger Staubach as somehow not able to survive facing Reggie White, Jerome Brown and Clyde Simmons of the 90s Eagles. Yes, Philly had a great D-line; Reggie is probably the best DE in NFL history, and Jerome Brown was a truly great player at DT.

But Roger played against some of the great D-lines in history, and he played heroically against them: LA Rams Fearsome Foursome (Deacon Jones was there for only one game vs. Roger, but Merlin Olsen and Jack Youngblood were around), the Vikings Purple People Eaters (Alan Page is arguably the greatest pass rushing DT in history and Carl Eller is a HOFer), and the Steelers Steel Curtain. The 70s was the era of great D-lines and great MLBs.

Joe Greene didn't run a 40 the way guys do today, but to even suggest he was less physical or less intimidating fails to see just how terrific an opponent he was - and what a menace he was to opposing QBs and RBs. You don't think Olsen or Bob Lilly or Randy White were as physical as today's 1-techs and 3-techs? And before Roger's day, there were DEs like Gino Marchetti and Doug Atkins who were just plain strong and nasty and all-time greats.

Staubach played against a lot of great players in a day when the QB was not protected. He and Bradshaw took more punishment than any QB of the last 25 years - probably going back to Aikman.

And even though my figures above show obviously significant increases in force and energy, do you think LVE (who's considered another Urlacher by many) hits with the ferocity that Dick Butkus or Ray Nitschke delivered on almost every contact? LVE is similar in weight to Butkus and much faster, but Butkus destroyed people and instilled fear in the opposition like no LB this side of Lawrence Taylor.

The game back then was brutal. Rosters were smaller and guys (unfortunately) played with injuries in the 50s-70s that would put guys on the shelf today for weeks. The rules are much more protective today.

Roger had at least 11 documented concussions in his career - and probably more than that. He played recklessly, and if he played today he would probably learn to slide more and avoid direct hits.

So, while your point is true, namely that today's players are bigger and faster, it's also true that the guys in Roger's day were mentally and physically tough. Roger was 6'3" and 215 lb, and he was always in great condition, going back to his days at the Naval Academy. He retired at the top of his game at 37, and if the league had today's concussion protocols in place then, he could have played until he was 40 or 41 and would have still competed for NFL passing titles.

RoboQB, I agree with you in part and disagree in part. You have the physics above to defend your case, but those of us who watched games from that era know how violent it was and how the QB was not protected as he is today and took a lot of unnecessary punishment.

 

[Fritsch_the_cat]

They were both great, it doesn't have to be one or the other.

 

[Whirlwin]

I believe the comparison was Staubach and Aikman.
In Aikman's era, they absolutely did bang QBs heads into the ground.

Even in Romo's time, they purposely broke collar bones of QBs.

I love Roger Staubach. He's my hero's hero. But he would've been beaten to death
in Philly in the early 90s.

Speculation. You never know you just never know

 

[Whirlwin]

Anyone who doesn't comprehend how good Meredith was is a double total dumba$$!!!!

Dandy Don. I just watched the ice bowl game. I don't know how we through those passes. Yep agree

 

[Whirlwin]

We often hear of the difference between yesterday's football player and today's. And there is some merit to this argument. A little physics settles this argument.

I compared a 260 lb DE from the 60s-70s to a 285 DE from the 90s to the present. A 40-yd dash will not produce meaningful results, largely because when using kinematic equations (as I did), it over-estimates final velocity (at 40 yd) and acceleration (the assumption being that acceleration is constant when using the equations). So, I took a 10-yard split and assumed today's top DEs can run a 1.6 sec split. Assuming today's DE runs a 40 somewhere around 0.3 sec faster, I assumed a 10-yard split of 1.9 sec for the 60s/70s player. I converted from English to SI units and ran my calculations.

I then compared kinetic energy and force generated by each player running unimpeded at full speed and making contact with a stationary player (e.g., DE runs 10 yards at full speed and explodes into the QB). KE = 1/2 * mass * velocity^2. F = mass * acceleration.

Results:

1960s/70s DE 260 lb top speed at 10 yd = 9.62 m/sec KE = 5459 Joules F = 598 Newtons
Current DE 285 lb top speed at 10 yd = 11.43 m/sec KE = 8447 Joules F = 924 Newtons

At the increased mass and velocity (and acceleration), today's DE would generate roughly 55% more kinetic energy and force.

But those are just numbers, and probably boring to most.

That said, it's folly to think of Roger Staubach as somehow not able to survive facing Reggie White, Jerome Brown and Clyde Simmons of the 90s Eagles. Yes, Philly had a great D-line; Reggie is probably the best DE in NFL history, and Jerome Brown was a truly great player at DT.

But Roger played against some of the great D-lines in history, and he played heroically against them: LA Rams Fearsome Foursome (Deacon Jones was there for only one game vs. Roger, but Merlin Olsen and Jack Youngblood were around), the Vikings Purple People Eaters (Alan Page is arguably the greatest pass rushing DT in history and Carl Eller is a HOFer), and the Steelers Steel Curtain. The 70s was the era of great D-lines and great MLBs.

Joe Greene didn't run a 40 the way guys do today, but to even suggest he was less physical or less intimidating fails to see just how terrific an opponent he was - and what a menace he was to opposing QBs and RBs. You don't think Olsen or Bob Lilly or Randy White were as physical as today's 1-techs and 3-techs? And before Roger's day, there were DEs like Gino Marchetti and Doug Atkins who were just plain strong and nasty and all-time greats.

Staubach played against a lot of great players in a day when the QB was not protected. He and Bradshaw took more punishment than any QB of the last 25 years - probably going back to Aikman.

And even though my figures above show obviously significant increases in force and energy, do you think LVE (who's considered another Urlacher by many) hits with the ferocity that Dick Butkus or Ray Nitschke delivered on almost every contact? LVE is similar in weight to Butkus and much faster, but Butkus destroyed people and instilled fear in the opposition like no LB this side of Lawrence Taylor.

The game back then was brutal. Rosters were smaller and guys (unfortunately) played with injuries in the 50s-70s that would put guys on the shelf today for weeks. The rules are much more protective today.

Roger had at least 11 documented concussions in his career - and probably more than that. He played recklessly, and if he played today he would probably learn to slide more and avoid direct hits.

So, while your point is true, namely that today's players are bigger and faster, it's also true that the guys in Roger's day were mentally and physically tough. Roger was 6'3" and 215 lb, and he was always in great condition, going back to his days at the Naval Academy. He retired at the top of his game at 37, and if the league had today's concussion protocols in place then, he could have played until he was 40 or 41 and would have still competed for NFL passing titles.

RoboQB, I agree with you in part and disagree in part. You have the physics above to defend your case, but those of us who watched games from that era know how violent it was and how the QB was not protected as he is today and took a lot of unnecessary punishment.

I have been training over 50 years. Change is inevitable. Speed hurts as much as power. It's just too hard 2 interchange eras because of rules. But I agree with most of your opinion. It was well thought out

 

[kskboys]

So are you suggesting he was better than either in this subject?

Yes.

My list goes Staubach, Meredith, Aikman. I could almost go w/ a tie for 2nd between Aikman and Merry.

Meredith was saddled w/ a terrible OL for 6 seasons. The fact that he did as well as he did was amazing. It shortened his career appreciably.

 

[kskboys]

I believe the comparison was Staubach and Aikman.
In Aikman's era, they absolutely did bang QBs heads into the ground.

Even in Romo's time, they purposely broke collar bones of QBs.

I love Roger Staubach. He's my hero's hero. But he would've been beaten to death
in Philly in the early 90s.

I simply cannot comprehend how you can even make that last statement. It doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[Whirlwin]

Interesting how Craig Morton is to some a forgotten Cowboy.

He led the Cowboys to their 1st Super Bowl and was a tipped pass interception from winning it.

He was a terrific talent coming out of California as a 1st round pick in 1965. The same season we took Roger in 10th round knowing he was going to the Navy for 4 years.

Craig had a Cannon arm. He led the Cowboys to 3 straight division titles after Meredith retired culminating in our 1st SB appearance.

Morton went on to become the 1st QB to start for two different SB teams( Denver) and had the longest career of any Cowboys drafted QB( 18 years). He threw for over 27,000 yards. 32-14-1 record with Cowboys. We just had a guy named Roger sitting on the bench.

Thanks for memory lane. He was so good Landry didn't know what to do interchangeable quarterbacks every other play

 

[Whirlwin]

Fans back then were either "Morton guys" or "Staubach guys" but not both. The Morton guys converted to Staubach guys after Morton left. That fate was sealed when Staubach's Cowboys beat Morton's Broncos in SB XII.

Yes but one came before the other. It was nice to roll back to Memory Lane