Players that have failed: Mental or Physical?

[Risen Star]

I think you're overrating the physical ability of some of those guys.

Butler and Brewster, at least to me, didn't have the physical ability as much as anything.

I agree. I don't buy for a second that all the draft busts were because of mental issues. Just because somebody's athletic doesn't mean he's a good football player.

 

[jobberone]

How many draft picks failed due to lack of physical ability vs lack of proper mental-makeup?

Players in bold have questions about their physical abilities. All other players had the required physical ability, IMO.

These failures are relative to their draft position.

Players drafted in the 4th round or earlier:
2007
Pass 1 26 Anthony Spencer LB
Fail 3 67 James Marten OT :Not certain if physical or mental. Maybe both.
Fail 4 103 Isaiah Stanback WR :Mental (super athletic)
Pass 4 122 Doug Free OT

2008
Fail 1 22 Felix Jones RB :Great athlete, but lacked aggression and not smart.
Fail 1 25 Mike Jenkins CB :Great athlete, but didn't like physical play and not a good locker-room guy.
Fail 2 61 Martellus Bennett TE :Extremely inflated feeling of self-importance. Questionable effort because he didn't like being a backup.
Fail 4 122 Tashard Choice RB :Might have overcome physical limitations with proper mental approach. No effort on special teams, Vick autograph...
2009
Fail 3 69 Jason Williams LB :Could not learn coverage concepts. Super Athlete.
Fail 3 75 Robert Brewster OT :Lazy. Didn't like football. Had the required size and athleticism.
Fail 4 101 Stephen McGee QB :Could make the throws and was athletic. Couldn't pull the trigger under pressure.
Fail 4 110 Victor Butler LB :Couldn't grasp all of the complexities of 3-4 OLB (coverage, pass rush and run defense).
Fail 4 117 Brandon Williams LB :Both physical and mental.
2010
Pass 1 24 24 Dez Bryant WR
Pass 2 23 55 Sean Lee ILB
Fail 4 21 119 Akwasi Owusu-Ansah FS :Super athlete. Could cover or play the run, but could not figure out when to switch from one to the other.
2010 - Supplemental Draft
Fail 7 Josh Brent NT/DE :Not a 4th, but failed due to the same issue that he had in college. Driving while Intoxicated.
2011
Pass 1 9 Tyron Smith OT
???? 2 40 Bruce Carter ILB :Super Athlete, but slow learner. Questionable effort.
Pass 3 71 Demarco Murray RB
Fail 4 110 David Arkin G Physical limitations.

Summary: Only 1 player was definitely lacking in NFL physical ability. Threee other players had questionable physical ability.

Nice post.

 

[jobberone]

I think you're overrating the physical ability of some of those guys.

Butler and Brewster, at least to me, didn't have the physical ability as much as anything.

Maybe. I think the issue of trying to develop talent is a difficult one. When players have super talent and combine that with production and being a football player then they are going high. You have to choose in the later rounds picking the guys who will develop the instincts etc to play or they will develop the physical abilities to match their intangibles and instincts. The fail rate is high in all rounds. It just gets worse as you draft later and later.

 

[xwalker]

I agree. I don't buy for a second that all the draft busts were because of mental issues. Just because somebody's athletic doesn't mean he's a good football player.

If they have the required athletic ability and it's not mental, then they only thing remaining is spiritual.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

If they have the required athletic ability and it's not mental, then they only thing remaining is spiritual.

That's a valid point.

I think (and you've mentioned that in a post along the way) that "mental" can be broken down into different categories such as IQ, discipline level, motivation and let's just say a "feeling" for the sport.

There are a lot of smart fiction writers out there. Certainly many of them are smart or smarter than say Stephen King, but they lack that special spark that King has, that separates him from the others and in many cases those "others" are smarter than what King is.

 

[xwalker]

Aka could run fast in a straight line but wasn't athletic enough to flip his hips. That's a physical failure. Is this a thread backing up the RKG approach? That's how it reads to me. Draft guys that can play football

Who can't flip his hips?

 

[xwalker]

I think you're overrating the physical ability of some of those guys.

Butler and Brewster, at least to me, didn't have the physical ability as much as anything.

I studied those players quite a bit, especially Brewster.

Brewster definitely had NFL physical ability. They actually didn't cut him due to a lack of development on the field, but because of behind the scenes character issues. He was suspended by the league after they cut him for a failed drug test.

In regards to Butler, the Strong-Side OLB in RR's scheme was a very difficult position to play and learn. A player must be able to play the run , rush the passer and play in coverage. The coverage requirements are more zone oriented and require the player to just be in the correct position. They were not asking him to play man coverage. The coverage responsibilities were not something beyond his physical ability, he just never could be in the right spot at the right time. He couldn't figure out when he was supposed to rush or cover because it required "reading" the offensive players. He might not have had great physical ability against the run, but it would be difficult to know because he was usually so far out of the correct position that it didn't matter if he defeated his blocker or not. It was very similar to Ernie Sims this past season. Sims' size really wasn't the issue in most of his failures. He always filled the wrong hole against the run and took himself about of the play. No amount of physical ability would have allowed him to make the play once he has taken himself out of it.

 

[Risen Star]

That's a valid point.

It's really not. It comes from the Dork Olympics what's his shuttle time mindset. The world is full of athletic people who lack football skills. We've seen a ton of them here. Track athletes who can't play.

If you want to believe the Cowboys have consistently drafted talented players over the years but they just lacked the mental makeup to stick in the league, have at it. I'm not buying it.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

It's really not. It comes from the Dork Olympics what's his shuttle time mindset. The world is full of athletic people who lack football skills. We've seen a ton of them here. Track athletes who can't play.

If you want to believe the Cowboys have consistently drafted talented players over the years but they just lacked the mental makeup to stick in the league, have at it. I'm not buying it.

As I stated in my post, "mental" can cover several different attributes including intuition.

 

[Risen Star]

As I stated in my post, "mental" can cover several different attributes including intuition.

There's nothing mental about lacking football skills.

The Cowboys drafted bad football players. Not good ones in need of a shrink.

 

[unionjack8]

Who can't flip his hips?

Damn auto correct, my bad.
AOA. Fast but not a football athlete. No lateral movement ability whatsoever

 

[xwalker]

There's nothing mental about lacking football skills.

The Cowboys drafted bad football players. Not good ones in need of a shrink.

Yes, there are probably players where it's more difficult to say if it's physical or mental. Why couldn't Alexander Wright catch a football in a game? He could do it in practice, but not in a game. I can't say for certain if that is a physical skill or mental/emotional deficiency.

I saw MartyB in person at training camp repeatedly put on a show in pass catching drills. He could catch better with 1 hand than a normal person can catch with two. He was big, strong and fast. Why did he fail as receiver in real games? Because unlike pass catching drills, he had to use his brain to know the proper alignment and routes. He didn't exert effort to learn because he thought that he was better than Witten and should be the starter.

I also saw Stephen McGee at training camp. He could really throw a football with both velocity and accuracy in practice drills; however, in games, he just couldn't pull the trigger. That is a mental issue. Not that he was stupid, he just couldn't handle it emotionally.

Bobbie Carpenter could do anything physically that Keith Brooking could do. Run fast, jump high, catch a football, flip his hips, etc..

Bruce Carter struggled in 2013. Does he lack physical ability?

 

[xwalker]

Damn auto correct, my bad.
AOA. Fast but not a football athlete. No lateral movement ability whatsoever

There have been many successful Safeties with couldn't flip their hips any better than AOA. The issue is they have to know when to flip them. AOA would be playing deep Safety and wait until the receiver was even with him before he would turn and run. Nobody can start from dead stop and catch an NFL receiver that is already in full stride. Deep Safeties have to start running way before the receiver is near them. Lack of anticipation is a mental issue. Wade actually discussed AOA's issues one time during a training camp interview. He said that AOA's coverage was not really the problem. He said the problem was that AOA would be still be covering a receiver after the RB had taken the hand-off and had run 10 yards down-field.

 

[unionjack8]

There have been many successful Safeties with couldn't flip their hips any better than AOA. The issue is they have to know when to flip them. AOA would be playing deep Safety and wait until the receiver was even with him before he would turn and run. Nobody can start from dead stop and catch an NFL receiver that is already in full stride. Deep Safeties have to start running way before the receiver is near them. Lack of anticipation is a mental issue. Wade actually discussed AOA's issues one time during a training camp interview. He said that AOA's coverage was not really the problem. He said the problem was that AOA would be still be covering a receiver after the RB had taken the hand-off and had run 10 yards down-field.

i disagree. sorry but he couldnt cover squaat because he had zero change of direction ability. Even on kick retrurns he couldnt sidestep, just a straight ahead runner, nothing more, and in todays pass happy league its an impertaive skill to have imo.

 

[CyberB0b]

You realize that Bobbie Carpenter and Jacob Rogers were drafted by Parcells. Also, BP wanted to draft Merriman instead of Ware. He also traded out of the pick that could have been Steven Jackson. He thought they should take Marcus Spears before Ware when they had two 1st round picks.

This thread was not really about who did the drafting. I wanted to explore the concept of mental-makeup vs physical ability of players added to the team.

Imposssible task, especially since we only see very little of a player's body of work.

 

[xwalker]

i disagree. sorry but he couldnt cover squaat because he had zero change of direction ability. Even on kick retrurns he couldnt sidestep, just a straight ahead runner, nothing more, and in todays pass happy league its an impertaive skill to have imo.

You"re telling me that of these 2 guys, only 1 of them had the athletic ability to play Safety in the NFL?

Kam Chancellor
40 Yrd Dash: 4.62
20 Yrd Dash: 2.63
10 Yrd Dash: 1.60
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 22
Vertical Jump: 32
Broad Jump: 09'08"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.41
3-Cone Drill: 7.36

Akwasi Owusu-Ansah
40 Yrd Dash: 4.32
20 Yrd Dash: 2.51
10 Yrd Dash: 1.53
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 21
Vertical Jump: 35 1/2
Broad Jump: 10'00"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.19/4.32
3-Cone Drill: 6.84

 

[udas]

How many draft picks failed due to lack of physical ability vs lack of proper mental-makeup?

Players in bold have questions about their physical abilities. All other players had the required physical ability, IMO.

These failures are relative to their draft position.

Players drafted in the 4th round or earlier:
2007
Pass 1 26 Anthony Spencer LB
Fail 3 67 James Marten OT :Not certain if physical or mental. Maybe both.
Fail 4 103 Isaiah Stanback WR :Mental (super athletic)
Pass 4 122 Doug Free OT

2008
Fail 1 22 Felix Jones RB :Great athlete, but lacked aggression and not smart.
Fail 1 25 Mike Jenkins CB :Great athlete, but didn't like physical play and not a good locker-room guy.
Fail 2 61 Martellus Bennett TE :Extremely inflated feeling of self-importance. Questionable effort because he didn't like being a backup.
Fail 4 122 Tashard Choice RB :Might have overcome physical limitations with proper mental approach. No effort on special teams, Vick autograph...
2009
Fail 3 69 Jason Williams LB :Could not learn coverage concepts. Super Athlete.
Fail 3 75 Robert Brewster OT :Lazy. Didn't like football. Had the required size and athleticism.
Fail 4 101 Stephen McGee QB :Could make the throws and was athletic. Couldn't pull the trigger under pressure.
Fail 4 110 Victor Butler LB :Couldn't grasp all of the complexities of 3-4 OLB (coverage, pass rush and run defense).
Fail 4 117 Brandon Williams LB :Both physical and mental.
2010
Pass 1 24 24 Dez Bryant WR
Pass 2 23 55 Sean Lee ILB
Fail 4 21 119 Akwasi Owusu-Ansah FS :Super athlete. Could cover or play the run, but could not figure out when to switch from one to the other.
2010 - Supplemental Draft
Fail 7 Josh Brent NT/DE :Not a 4th, but failed due to the same issue that he had in college. Driving while Intoxicated.
2011
Pass 1 9 Tyron Smith OT
???? 2 40 Bruce Carter ILB :Super Athlete, but slow learner. Questionable effort.
Pass 3 71 Demarco Murray RB
Fail 4 110 David Arkin G Physical limitations.

Summary: Only 1 player was definitely lacking in NFL physical ability. Threee other players had questionable physical ability.

That 2008 draft was a killer. Two first round picks and wecouldnt get one long term answer

 

[unionjack8]

You"re telling me that of these 2 guys, only 1 of them had the athletic ability to play Safety in the NFL?

Kam Chancellor
40 Yrd Dash: 4.62
20 Yrd Dash: 2.63
10 Yrd Dash: 1.60
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 22
Vertical Jump: 32
Broad Jump: 09'08"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.41
3-Cone Drill: 7.36

Akwasi Owusu-Ansah
40 Yrd Dash: 4.32
20 Yrd Dash: 2.51
10 Yrd Dash: 1.53
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 21
Vertical Jump: 35 1/2
Broad Jump: 10'00"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.19/4.32
3-Cone Drill: 6.84

pretty much yeah
combine numbers? vernon gholston had atheltic prowess out the yang but couldnt beat rob petitti with a head start because his football athleticism was less than my grandmothers

 

[CyberB0b]

I studied those players quite a bit, especially Brewster.

How do you study them, when you only see the final product, which is probably less than 10% of their entire body of work? Some of those guys you listed in the OP never played in a real NFL game. You have no idea how much time any of these guys spend in the weight room, the film room, in their own offseason programs. You have no idea how they do in practice. Unless you are part of the staff of the Dallas Cowboys, you have no way to determine what issues players have or why they fail.

 

[FiveRings]

Suggesting Choice was a bust is a little unfair, for a fourth rounder and what we got out of him, I wasn't terribly disappointed. Maybe I just have lower standards