Poe: 4 Sacks in 402 snaps

[CowboyRoy]

Linebacker dont rush unless its a blitz. In a 4 man rush, your defensive tackles are part of your pass rush, and need to generate pressure

Its a secondary duty. #1 job is on first down to stuff the run. Now when 3rd and long comes around, different story.

 

[RS12]

Give me a DT that can control 2 blockers and push the pocket. Not giving a QB a pocket to step up into is a win on most defensive plays.

 

[CowboyRoy]

Jaylon & DLaw gotta be happy to see McCoy & Poe

EXACTLY the job of the DT's are to stuff the run, take up blocks and let the REAL athletic guys run around and make tackles and sacks.

 

[CyberB0b]

He is what he is. He's a journeyman stop-gap, just like HHCD. Nothing wrong with filling gaps with these types of guys.

 

[dwmyers]

Are you saying Marinelli was running a Tom Landry style of defense or something different?

They have the same kinds of gaps assignments. That said, Tom's defenses were about gap control, whereas the Marinelli fronts are more akin to JJ's 4-3. Pursue first and clean up the gaps later.

 

[America's Cowboy]

They have the same kinds of gaps assignments. That said, Tom's defenses were about gap control, whereas the Marinelli fronts are more akin to JJ's 4-3. Pursue first and clean up the gaps later.

Sounds worse since Jimmy's 4-3 dominated while Marinelli's sucked.

 

[GMO415]

He's here to stop the run

 

[speedkilz88]

They have the same kinds of gaps assignments. That said, Tom's defenses were about gap control, whereas the Marinelli fronts are more akin to JJ's 4-3. Pursue first and clean up the gaps later.

I don't believe Jimmy used a 1T though. Both his DTs were over the guards I think. Zimmer originally ran that scheme but switched one year when the defense struggled.

 

[dwmyers]

Give me a DT that can control 2 blockers and push the pocket. Not giving a QB a pocket to step up into is a win on most defensive plays.

I remember talking on Facebook with Pat Toomay about the difference between 1 gap and 2 gap linemen. You occasionally see someone claim Tom had 2 gap defenses. There is no evidence of this. What Pat points out is that a good 2 gap defensive lineman has a body build like a sparkplug, whereas Tom's linemen were all lean and tall. He liked them tall so they could put up their hands and block passes.

It was something of a revelation back in the day when Tom was the first DC to use a 4-3 full time and had the kind of linemen the 4-3 used. You can see the effect by reading articles by Bobby Layne, and how those four tall linemen rushing made it so much harder to pass. Cause the other defense in those days was the 5-2 Eagle, and the three lineman in the middle stayed home and defended the run (2 gapped), while the ends rushed. It was clear from the context that Bobby would much rather deal with the 2 men rushing than the 4 tall men..

 

[dwmyers]

I don't believe Jimmy used a 1T though. Both his DTs were over the guards I think. Zimmer originally ran that scheme but switched one year when the defense struggled.

Absolutely had a player at the 1T as the Miami front was typically an "under front". They could be even or over but most commonly an "under". But all 4 had one gap and penetrated.

D-

You don't have to believe me, but maybe you would believe the Wikipedia... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_4–3_defense but oh, wait, I wrote most of that article . The diagram is one I made as well.

 

[blueblood70]

If they can collapse the pocket they are helping the pass rush even if they don't get sacks themselves.

yup want to see JOnes, wentz and Haskin funneled into our pass rush tank rebounds with 11 sacks and Gregory gets 7...

 

[dwmyers]

Sounds worse since Jimmy's 4-3 dominated while Marinelli's sucked.

Oh, I'm sure no one would like a defensive front like Tampa Bay had in the late 1990s. People just kept hiring Marinelli because he had incriminating photos of coaches and their dogs. Now, the other possibility is that Tony Dungy (and others) are correct about the man and Marinelli actually has a clue.

This last batch of coaches got fired not because they knew stuff (they did), but because the lessons weren't sticking. Team should have been better and it wasn't.

 

[RS12]

Sounds worse since Jimmy's 4-3 dominated while Marinelli's sucked.

Jimmy's eight man rotation was deep and talented. Rods not so much. Jimmy knew talent and Rod well, left a mess behind.

 

[dwmyers]

Jimmy's eight man rotation was deep and talented. Rods not so much. Jimmy knew talent and Rod well, left a mess behind.

I can agree that Jimmy was a far better talent guy. Otherwise Marinelli would have been a better HC.

But I think the real problem is that ole Jerr got pissed at Rob Ryan and then pined for someone to coach the Seattle defense. And never found one. Found instead the folks who set up the Tampa 2. If you look at teams that used to run the Seattle defense, they either get canned (Gus Bradley), should have gotten canned (Dan Quinn), or leave the defense behind altogether (Robert Saleh for the 49ers, who now uses the wide 9). It takes a certain kind of genius to run it, and it also takes a real talent at FS, and you know Jerry just loves his all pro free safeties.

So you have a guy trying to implement a defense not his own, after the defense he helped design has now been around 30+ years and been picked apart by team after team. With the right players you can play the Seattle front, but I think it takes a Pete Carroll to understand it well enough to actually get a pass rush out of it. Actually the same can be said of the Tampa 2. We never had the right bodies for it, because Jerr just loves his 310 pound penetrating 3 techs.

D-

 

[dwmyers]

Absolutely had a player at the 1T as the Miami front was typically an "under front". They could be even or over but most commonly an "under". But all 4 had one gap and penetrated.

D-

You don't have to believe me, but maybe you would believe the Wikipedia... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_4–3_defense but oh, wait, I wrote most of that article . The diagram is one I made as well.

And having not read my own article in a while, got the odd front backwards. Miami tends to be an over front. Tampa 2 tends to an under front.

 

[America's Cowboy]

Oh, I'm sure no one would like a defensive front like Tampa Bay had in the late 1990s. People just kept hiring Marinelli because he had incriminating photos of coaches and their dogs. Now, the other possibility is that Tony Dungy (and others) are correct about the man and Marinelli actually has a clue.

This last batch of coaches got fired not because they knew stuff (they did), but because the lessons weren't sticking. Team should have been better and it wasn't.

How did Marinelli do when he coached the Bears?

Oh, that's right, he coached an NFL team (franchisely known for good defenses) to the only winless team ever!

But go ahead and keep defending him. It's you're right.

 

[RS12]

I can agree that Jimmy was a far better talent guy. Otherwise Marinelli would have been a better HC.

But I think the real problem is that ole Jerr got pissed at Rob Ryan and then pined for someone to coach the Seattle defense. And never found one. Found instead the folks who set up the Tampa 2. If you look at teams that used to run the Seattle defense, they either get canned (Gus Bradley), should have gotten canned (Dan Quinn), or leave the defense behind altogether (Robert Saleh for the 49ers, who now uses the wide 9). It takes a certain kind of genius to run it, and it also takes a real talent at FS, and you know Jerry just loves his all pro free safeties.

So you have a guy trying to implement a defense not his own, after the defense he helped design has now been around 30+ years and been picked apart by team after team. With the right players you can play the Seattle front, but I think it takes a Pete Carroll to understand it well enough to actually get a pass rush out of it. Actually the same can be said of the Tampa 2. We never had the right bodies for it, because Jerr just loves his 310 pound penetrating 3 techs.

D-

An intelligent poster instead of pom pom waver. Not easy to find this time of year. And I agree the 2012 Seattle game had a big impact on this franchise.

 

[dwmyers]

How did Marinelli do when he coached the Bears?

Oh, that's right, he coached an NFL team (franchisely known for good defenses) to the only winless team ever!

But go ahead and keep defending that loser. It's you're right.

Quoting the Wikipedia

Marinelli joined the Chicago Bears in January 2009 as assistant head coach and defensive line coach,[2] reuniting him with Lovie Smith, whom he worked with under Tony Dungy in Tampa Bay from 1996–2000.[2] Marinelli also interviewed with the Houston Texans and Seattle Seahawks before joining the Bears. Marinelli was promoted from defensive line coach to defensive coordinator in February 2010.[3] In the 2010 to 2012 seasons, Marinelli's defenses ranked ninth, seventeenth, and fifth, respectively. Also in 2012, the Bears led the NFL in interceptions with 24,[4] along with in takeaways with 44, sixth in third-down efficiency (35.5 percent) and eighth in sacks with 41,[5] while ranking third with the fewest points allowed (477).[6] Marinelli left the Bears in January 2013.[7]

That Bears record makes him look competent as a DC, you know. It was the Lions he was a horrible HC for.

The real question, the one that gets me, is Marinelli the one who let Kevin Hatcher go after he began to be a decent 3 tech? How many DTs did the Jones family let go in their time running the franchise starting from the moment they were pursuing the 4-3 seriously?

I know it's popular in Dallas circles to blame Marinelli for everything from global warning to the coronavirus, but he wasn't buying the groceries, and he wasn't abnormally focused on the exterior of the defense.

Belichick drafts from the inside out.
The Jones value talent and draft from the outside in (yes, with the exception of OL. Somehow they learned that.).

 

[fansince68]

He just needs to keep the LB's clean.

yeah thats right so the lbs can over run plays and miss tackles....lol

 

[America's Cowboy]

Quoting the Wikipedia



That Bears record makes him look competent as a DC, you know. It was the Lions he was a horrible HC for.

The real question, the one that gets me, is Marinelli the one who let Kevin Hatcher go after he began to be a decent 3 tech? How many DTs did the Jones family let go in their time running the franchise starting from the moment they were pursuing the 4-3 seriously?

I know it's popular in Dallas circles to blame Marinelli for everything from global warning to the coronavirus, but he wasn't buying the groceries, and he wasn't abnormally focused on the exterior of the defense.

Belichick drafts from the inside out.
The Jones value talent and draft from the outside in (yes, with the exception of OL. Somehow they learned that.).

Excuse me but I meant to refer to the Lions team Marinelli coached. Hard to concentrate while working from home, having to deal with online customers and getting nagged by 20+ people on Facebook Messenger.

The bottom line, Marinelli had many years to prove himself but failed. His defense was constantly getting run up the gut while always allowing opponents to drive down the field and at least get in FG range costing us points plus time of possession. Plus, if you truly believe Marinelli didn't have a big say in persuading Jerry which defensive players to draft, I've got a piece of swampland in Florida I'd like to sell you. It is prime real estate!