Question for Yazuka Rich...

[CalCBFan]

...or our other BONA FIDE analysts. On Talking Cowboys this a.m. Mickey seemed to insinuate that the pass to the TE Stevens for the go-ahead TD was more Roy Williams fault than Bradie James, because you can't ask a LB to run w/ a TE that runs as well as Stevens w/o any help from a Safety.

If he's right, the this problem has to be at, or near, the top of the list of things to fix, if we are going to win more than 9 games and not lose in the first round of the POs. I think it is unforgivable that after 4 years (this year was Roy's 5th) nobody could teach him to cover, nor find an appropriate "niche" if the conclusion was drawn that he could not learn to cover, and then give him a big contract extension...

 

[DallasInDC]

...or our other BONA FIDE analysts. On Talking Cowboys this a.m. Mickey seemed to insinuate that the pass to the TE Stevens for the go-ahead TD was more Roy Williams fault than Bradie James, because you can't ask a LB to run w/ a TE that runs as well as Stevens w/o any help from a Safety.

If he's right, the this problem has to be at, or near, the top of the list of things to fix, if we are going to win more than 9 games and not lose in the first round of the POs. I think it is unforgivable that after 4 years (this year was Roy's 5th) nobody could teach him to cover, nor find an appropriate "niche" if the conclusion was drawn that he could not learn to cover, and then give him a big contract extension...

This worries me alot. no matter how good the FS is if a team has a quick TE it will be easy to isolate him on RW from the 3 WR or 2 TE set. I use to believe our secondary problems were solely the FS position, however this year really exposed RW and I'm not sure how the boys address this problem other than take him off the field in obvious passing downs. Maybe bulking RW up and moving him to LB is the best option.

 

[CalCBFan]

Mickey has told callers that want RW to be a LBer that he is not big enough to take the pounding a LBer must tak, regardless of bulk. This is what did in Dat Nguyen. And you would still have the problem of RW tryinhg to cover a TE like Stevens...

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

This worries me alot. no matter how good the FS is if a team has a quick TE it will be easy to isolate him on RW from the 3 WR or 2 TE set. I use to believe our secondary problems were solely the FS position, however this year really exposed RW and I'm not sure how the boys address this problem other than take him off the field in obvious passing downs. Maybe bulking RW up and moving him to LB is the best option.

Only in a Cover2. If you play more Cover1, then the coverage responsabilities change and you don't get as many ISO plays on the weaker Safety. He then plays a more traditional SS role. Besides, the coverage responsability, typically, in a situation like that is for a LB to have a TE for maybe 15 to 20 yards down field. That's doable with a LB on a fast TE. Once the TE starts breaking that zone, it's the Safeties responsability to pick up over the top coverage, if your in position to do that. If not, then it doesn't matter. Your going to get burned.

 

[Mansta54]

This worries me alot. no matter how good the FS is if a team has a quick TE it will be easy to isolate him on RW from the 3 WR or 2 TE set. I use to believe our secondary problems were solely the FS position, however this year really exposed RW and I'm not sure how the boys address this problem other than take him off the field in obvious passing downs. Maybe bulking RW up and moving him to LB is the best option.

Hassleback had all day to throw the ball. Pressure would eliminate alot of our secondary issues. CB's and LB's can't run with recievers all day. WE GET NO CONSISTENT PRESSURE AT ALL except for Ware. It's ridiculous!!!

 

[burmafrd]

Leave him in but use him like we did with Bill Bates for many years. Playing close to the line - a threat to blitz- if the QB is mobile to make sure he does not escape and hurt us on a run= that is a good place for Roy in passing downs.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Leave him in but use him like we did with Bill Bates for many years. Playing close to the line - a threat to blitz- if the QB is mobile to make sure he does not escape and hurt us on a run= that is a good place for Roy in passing downs.

Come next season, Roy will have been in the league 6 years and he has never been used in this way. I'm starting to worry that we are never going to get it with this player and he will be religated to doing what he is doing now. If that happens, that's going to be a real shame and an even bigger waste of a player and a draft pick.

 

[DallasInDC]

Only in a Cover2. If you play more Cover1, then the coverage responsabilities change and you don't get as many ISO plays on the weaker Safety..

True, However, if we don't get more pressure from upfront, we will be seeing alot mor cover 2. :doh:

He then plays a more traditional SS role. Besides, the coverage responsability, typically, in a situation like that is for a LB to have a TE for maybe 15 to 20 yards down field. That's doable with a LB on a fast TE. Once the TE starts breaking that zone, it's the Safeties responsability to pick up over the top coverage, if your in position to do that. If not, then it doesn't matter. Your going to get burned.

Didn't RW get burned several times in that situation?

 

[Crown Royal]

I think on that play there are supposed to be 3 in that deep zone - with the MLB dropping back. IIRC, James started the play too close to the line of scrimmage. It was his zone assignment, not a man assignment. Stephens just happened to be the only man in the zone

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

True, However, if we don't get more pressure from upfront, we will be seeing alot mor cover 2. :doh:



Didn't RW get burned several times in that situation?

Yep.....

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I think on that play there are supposed to be 3 in that deep zone - with the MLB dropping back. IIRC, James started the play too close to the line of scrimmage. It was his zone assignment, not a man assignment. Stephens just happened to be the only man in the zone

I don't know that he was too close to the line. He has to get a chuck on his assignment release. Then, you turn and run with your guy. If he runs a streak on you, you have to trust that the safety will be there to help you. If they are not there, it looks like it's all on you because you are invariably going to be trailing the TD 5 yards back. Horrible feeling.

:laugh2:

 

[Yakuza Rich]

...or our other BONA FIDE analysts. On Talking Cowboys this a.m. Mickey seemed to insinuate that the pass to the TE Stevens for the go-ahead TD was more Roy Williams fault than Bradie James, because you can't ask a LB to run w/ a TE that runs as well as Stevens w/o any help from a Safety.

If he's right, the this problem has to be at, or near, the top of the list of things to fix, if we are going to win more than 9 games and not lose in the first round of the POs. I think it is unforgivable that after 4 years (this year was Roy's 5th) nobody could teach him to cover, nor find an appropriate "niche" if the conclusion was drawn that he could not learn to cover, and then give him a big contract extension...

Then I disagree with Mickey. They were playing a very basic Cover 2. Roy's first responsibility is to over the top towards the sideline to take the WR. If the WR doesn't run a deep pattern, then Roy is supposed to immediately help over the top of the middle. In this situation, the Seattle WR did run a deep fade.

In that coverage, the ILB is supposed to sprint right backwards and cover the TE...and Stevens isn't a fast TE by any means.

Holmgren attacked the Cover 2 just like any decent offensive coach would have.

The fault on that play was:

1. Zimmer's predictability in his play calling. When things are tight, he always settles in the Cover 2. Regardless of defensive execution, if the opposing offense can get the correct playcall to counter a defensive playcall, the defense is at a major disadvantage.

2. We can't get a pass rush. The Cover 2 works for teams that can really get their pass rushers up the field fast. They don't exactly have to sack the QB, but if they get up the field quickly enough, it forces the QB to make a quick throw or a dump off to avoid the pressure. You could have Ronnie Lott/Ed Reed/Polamalu or whomever you want, if you're getting that type of pass rush in a Cover 2, they will get burned.

3. There may have been somebody who didn't re-route Stevens and was supposed to. If nobody was supposed to bump Stevens, then Zimmer is even more of a moron than we think.

4. Bradie is slow and terrible in coverage. He got beaten pretty badly as I think he expected Stevens to cut his route short. When Stevens didn't, he just got blown by.


I'm just not sure how Mickey can say that you can't expect an LB to cover a TE, but on the other hand your safety should be able to cover that much ground. But while Bradie had main responsibility and didn't get the job done, Zimmer really screwed the pooch on this one.


YAKUZA

 

[theogt]

It's really impossible to know without knowing the playcall. The way James was desparately running to catch up with Stevens with is back to the QB, however, doesn't lead me to believe James was covering a zone, unless he busted his coverage and was playing way too close to begin with.

 

[Crown Royal]

Yakuza pretty much described what I was trying to say.

In a cover 2 scheme that it LOOKED LIKE we called, the safeties responsibilities are pretty much on the outside of the seam.

The MLB is supposed to be playing deep and keep everything in front of him. It appears that Bradie misjudged the TE and let him get behind him, because the safeties were NOT covering the middle of the field.

It might just be that everyone executed properly and that was just the perfect play call - that does happen, folks.

 

[arglebargle]

....It might just be that everyone executed properly and that was just the perfect play call - that does happen, folks.

If so, it happened far to regularly against the Cowboys down the stretch......

 

[Yakuza Rich]

It's really impossible to know without knowing the playcall. The way James was desparately running to catch up with Stevens with is back to the QB, however, doesn't lead me to believe James was covering a zone, unless he busted his coverage and was playing way too close to begin with.

I won't say I'm 100% sure, but I'm about 90% sure that it was a Cover 2 package. They had James pretty deep to begin with and he sprinted back up the middle. Roy went over the top towards the sideline. It's a pretty common coverage in the NFL and Mickey should know that.



YAKUZA

 

[CalCBFan]

Thanks YAKUZA; I knew you'd set us straight...

 

[AdamJT13]

In the Cover 2, the middle linebacker must take a deep drop to cover exactly the play the Seahawks ran.

Here's a snippet from one (excellent) breakdown of the Cover 2 -- "The main problems with a 5 under 2 deep coverage such as this are the windows created in the deep secondary. Not only is half the field a lot of ground for one person to cover, it also creates a couple of very distinct vulnerabilities that can be exploited by a savvy offense. The biggest threat to a cover 2 is the deep middle, which is opened when the safeties have to cover towards the sidelines. The most obvious way to attack that is by running fades on both sides of the field to pull the safeties from the middle, and run a fast TE up the seam or on a post route. When utilized correctly, a terrible mismatch can occur with a MLB covering the deep middle."

That's exactly what the Seahawks did. That the play worked has NOTHING to do with Roy's coverage abilities and EVERYTHING to do with James' (lack of) coverage abilities and the particular vulnerability of that scheme.

 

[Rack]

That's exactly what the Seahawks did. That the play worked has NOTHING to do with Roy's coverage abilities and EVERYTHING to do with James' (lack of) coverage abilities and the particular vulnerability of that scheme.

I agree, although if Roy weren't a robot (thanks to Zimmer) his instincts could of/would of kicked in and he could of/would of got a jump on that pass and possibly picked it off or knocked it away. A safety has to sometimes be like a QB, and anticipate. Roy, the longer he's been under Zimmer, has anticipated less and less. Same could be said about Newman.


Hopefully our next DCoord - if we get one - won't be so eternally anal about technique, and allow his player makers to run a bit more on instinct.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I don't really agree with a lot of this. In cover2, the safety has responsability, first, as the zone he is occupying. Lets say you run a Tampa2 coverage. F or S Safety has responsability for the zone he is lined up in first. LBs typcially play off and cover 10 to 20 deep. Lets say you have a 3 WR set or a two TE set with the Outside Left WR called x, the the TE called Y, or slot as H and the WR lined up wide right Z. Coverage responsabilities in a straight Cover2 are pretty much equal for Strong or Free. Corners, in this coverage should play there assignments shaded to force an inside release or even man ball technique at say 65 to 75 Degree angles. In a straight cover2, it is imparative that a CB never allows a WR to get the side line on him. He must force inside release in order to allow for the Safety to help in coverage. If the CB allows the sideline to the WR, the Safety can not help in coverage if the y/h runs a streak or seam route. In that situation, the CB is one on one until the ball is in the air. Only a very fast safety can get to that ball and if it is thrown perfectly, the coverage is defeated. Safety responsability is his zone or the seam first. If the technique is played properly and the outside WR is forced to an inside release, the safety should be able to play both the seam and the deep WR effectively. The safety should be able to wait till the ball is in the air and then commite to the deep assignment effectively for over the top responsability. It takes less time for a thrown ball to arrive on a seam route run by a TE or a Slot WR then it does a deep ball thrown to an outside release WR running a steak, flagg or post. Responsability on this has to be the seam first in a straight cover2. Either a DE or a LB must get a chuck on the TE and or Slot or the LB and safety will get eaten up.

The question I have is where was James lined up on this play? Was it really a straight Cover2 or was it something else? I don't know. Typically, LBs get good drops in this coverage. For James to be running solo in a trailing position on the TE seam is unusual. Somebody should be there to help him over the top in a straight cover 2.