Questions for Old Timer's Thread

[EastDallasCowboy]

Ok, the season is over.

We're re-re-re-re-hashing how much we love/hate Parcells. It's getting a bit old.

Around the time I started lurking here, there was an old-timers thread where younger Cowboys fans asked questions to this forum's AARP elite. :

Anyway, I thought I'd start another one....see if any of you fogies are around. I'm 25 years old and have been watching the 'Boys since Herschel Walker....and so I failed to witness some 20 years of Cowboys history.

At the same time though, I got some nice Cowboys history reading lately, and while listening to Brad Sham and others talk about some of the good ol' days/players, it's always fun to hear other opinions.

So, with my longwinded introduction complete, I've got some questions for the Cowboys old-timers. Answers are much appreciated.

1) Jethro Pugh. I hear a lot about him, but he's not even on profootballreference.com. Can anyone tell me why he's so popular amongst some oldtimers and give me some frame of reference on the guy?

2) How crazy, for the fans, was the season where Morton/Staubach were splitting snaps....in the same games. I can't imagine this happening, and am curious as to what the fan reaction to it was? It seems so insane. Furthermore, was there a large contingent of fans rooting for Morton over Staubach?

3) Who the hell was Walt Garrison, and why is he seemingly irrelevant to all Cowboys lore, and yet he does car commercials now? I have zero frame of reference on the guy.

4) Bob Lilly. Is he as great as people say? Or is his status partially due to simply being the face of the early franchise?

I'll leave it there now. Thanks

 

[Hostile]

1) Jethro Pugh. I hear a lot about him, but he's not even on profootballreference.com. Can anyone tell me why he's so popular amongst some oldtimers and give me some frame of reference on the guy?

Jethro ix most remembered for one play in the Ice Bowl, but that is horribly unfair. He was a very solid DT. From 1968 through 1972 he led the Cowboys in QB sacks. He was an All Pro in 1968.

2) How crazy, for the fans, was the season where Morton/Staubach were splitting snaps....in the same games. I can't imagine this happening, and am curious as to what the fan reaction to it was? It seems so insane. Furthermore, was there a large contingent of fans rooting for Morton over Staubach?

I think most fans knew Staubach was better than Morton, but not all of them. Just like now. Most fans realize Romo is better than Bledsoe but there is still a contingent of fans who want Bledsoe.

3) Who the hell was Walt Garrison, and why is he seemingly irrelevant to all Cowboys lore, and yet he does car commercials now? I have zero frame of reference on the guy.

To understand Walt you've got to find his book "Once a Cowboy" and read it. You will laugh yourself silly. One example when talking about his small hometown. He said "the Stephensville hotel was like a tight pair of Wranglers...no ball room."

4) Bob Lilly. Is he as great as people say? Or is his status partially due to simply being the face of the early franchise?

He was the most dominant Defensive player in the NFL for over 10 years. He was not only great, he was a level above everyone else.

 

[big dog cowboy]

1) Jethro Pugh
2) Morton/Staubach
3) Walt Garrison
4) Bob Lilly

1. Very solid guy. I liked him a lot.
2. People thought running OG's in every play was crazy. But QB's? I never knew what to think about that. The right desicion was make to go with Roger. Crazy year.
3. "Just a pinch between my cheek and gum.". Was a true cowboy and great RB.
4. Greatest DT to ever play the game.

 

[Juke99]

Ok, the season is over.

We're re-re-re-re-hashing how much we love/hate Parcells. It's getting a bit old.

Around the time I started lurking here, there was an old-timers thread where younger Cowboys fans asked questions to this forum's AARP elite. :

Anyway, I thought I'd start another one....see if any of you fogies are around. I'm 25 years old and have been watching the 'Boys since Herschel Walker....and so I failed to witness some 20 years of Cowboys history.

At the same time though, I got some nice Cowboys history reading lately, and while listening to Brad Sham and others talk about some of the good ol' days/players, it's always fun to hear other opinions.

So, with my longwinded introduction complete, I've got some questions for the Cowboys old-timers. Answers are much appreciated.

1) Jethro Pugh. I hear a lot about him, but he's not even on profootballreference.com. Can anyone tell me why he's so popular amongst some oldtimers and give me some frame of reference on the guy?

2) How crazy, for the fans, was the season where Morton/Staubach were splitting snaps....in the same games. I can't imagine this happening, and am curious as to what the fan reaction to it was? It seems so insane. Furthermore, was there a large contingent of fans rooting for Morton over Staubach?

3) Who the hell was Walt Garrison, and why is he seemingly irrelevant to all Cowboys lore, and yet he does car commercials now? I have zero frame of reference on the guy.

4) Bob Lilly. Is he as great as people say? Or is his status partially due to simply being the face of the early franchise?

I'll leave it there now. Thanks

Jethro Pugh was a darn good player. He was overshadowed by Lilly but that defensive line was great. He was the guy that the Packers supposedly targeted on the Bart Starr sneak in the Ice Bowl because the Packers noticed he played high in his stance. Personally, I think the Packers kept adding more and more to their "legend" from that game.

Morton/Staubach. Black and white. No in between. You chose one side or the other. It's my memory that most fans wanted Staubach but that Landry preferred Morton because he was more of a classic pocket passer. Personally, I hated Morton's game. He was the original Drew Bledsoe. And yeah, it was pretty whacky with the QB rotation. But ya know, Landry got away with a lot because he was a brilliant coach. But alternating QB's? Geez.

Walt Garrison. Tough as nails. And not for nothing but he was much more than just a blocking FB. Back in those days, fullbacks actually ran the ball. Don Perkins, Walt Garrison, Robert Newhouse. Garrison had some nifty feet, great balance, and some quickness. AND he was a cowboy. The real thing.

Bob Lilly. He was even better than what people say. He was the quickest DT I have ever seen. Smart as hell too. And ya know, if Landry would have simply turned him loose, rather than have him play in the Flex, he'd have had an even greater career.

 

[percyhoward]

First things first. In kindergarten, they teach the basics: shapes and colors. The equivalent in beginning a Cowboys education is Bob Lilly.

Bob Lilly DT 1961-1974
"I would never accept getting beat one-on-one."

11 Pro Bowls
7 All Pro 64 65 66 67 68 69 71
All 60's Team
1 ring
Hall of Fame 1980 (1st Ballot)
Ring of Honor 1975
Lilly is called Mr. Cowboy, because he was the teams' first draft choice, its first Pro Bowl selection, its first member of the Ring of Honor and its first member of the Hall of Fame. Tom Landry said that in his lifetime, there wasn't a player as good as Lilly.

Lilly played in 196 straight games from 1961-74.

Packers guard Gale Gillingham, whom Lilly called the toughest lineman he ever had to face, said this about #74: "He was the best I ever played against. He was great in the pass rush because he had such long arms and used his hands so well. And, on the run, he'd butt you then pull. He wasn't that big, so you didn't have much to hit. He was so quick you couldn't just tee off. You had to leave the line under control, maybe give up a couple of yards then take him on.

"I had the toughest time ever during the Ice Bowl against him. They changed their shoes for the second half because of the ice, and I didn't touch him the entire half. If it hadn't been for our center, it would have been all over."




Now soak that in.

 

[EastDallasCowboy]

If anyone else has questions, please chime in. This is meant as a public service by this board to all of us young whipper snappers.

Some comments/clarification asked for:

-What was the play Jethro was remembered for in the Ice Bowl? You make it sound negative, but it's nothing that comes to mind....certainly not like Everson Walls on "the catch" which we've all seen 10000x.

-I guess I need to find some old Bob Lilly game film somewhere. You guys are echoing what I've always been told, but good god....it was so long ago. And he's not, atleast nationally, in the class of the Johnny Unitas' where you'll see film on TV.

-Would it be fair then to consider the Staubach/Morton debate the '70s version of Quincy/Hutch? Mind you the former were lightyears better, but I do remember the heated arguments around town during the latter.

-196 straight games? Seriously? That's got to be a record....that sounds like Cal Ripken in the NFL.

-Kinda wish, from what you're all saying, I could have witnessed Lilly in person. Shame he was inducted into the HOF the year before I was born

I've got plenty more questions, I'll pose them tomorrow. Thanks again guys, and I'd love more responses to the originals. The tradition of oral history is a great one, and while reading what Blackistone or Hitzges have to say is one thing, its great to get the input from old fans.

 

[lewpac]

Jethro Pugh was to Bob Lilly what Harvey Martin was to Randy White. He was what L.C. Greenwood was to "Mean" Joe Green. He was a hell of a player for a distinguished and long Cowboy career, but his partner along the Defensive line got most of the glory. Rightfully so I might add. He was a charter member of the vaunted "Doomsday Defense".

The Cowboys, believe it or not, got the label "the team that couldn't win the Big One" back then, due largley to the two "Ice Bowl" losses at Green Bay in '66 & '67, and the SB loss to Baltimore in the "blunder bowl". Craig Morten carried that curse and embodied it for Cowboy fans going into the season that Dallas finally beat Miami in the SB (the only SB BTW where a team didn't score a TD, to this day - Dallas 24 - Miami 3). Dallas drafted Roger out of Navy, but he had to fulfill his Naval comitment and didn't come aboard until several years after he was drafted. He sat on the bench, and you could imagine and was reasonable because we had a proven starter in Morten. Much like this year, Landry replaced Morten (week 5 if I remember) with Roger for no other reason than performance, and the legend was born starting with that years Championship. And there was a much more intense fan split than the Bledsoe-Romo switch of 2006. Everyone blamed Morten for the Colt SB loss because of the INT he threw to that LB at the end that allowed for the game winning FG.

Walt Garrison. Man O Man, one of the ultimate legendary Cowboys. A fullback, he of course didn't get the glory that Calvin Hill or Duane Thomas got, but he was more of a true-blue Cowboy than both of them put together. #32 was my Favorite Cowboy in those days, along with Lee Roy Jordan out of Alabama. If you look up "Dallas Cowboy" in the dictionary, Garrisons picture is there.........'nuff said.

Bob Lilly was "all world" coming out of college and WAS everything he was said to be. If you see film of him now compared to modern day DT's, he may not look the part. He too bore the "never win the big one" monicker due to his image and being an original, true-blue Cowboy. He's a deserving HOF-mer who ironically, when Dallas DID win the Championship in the Miami SB, had an iconic play in running down Bob Griese for a 20-something yard sack. He's also the subject of another momorable scene in that, after the Colf SB loss, he stood mid-field, threw his helmet some 20-30 yards in the air, and fell to his knees..........symbolizing for all Cowboys and their fans the frustration of still being a bridesmaid. He and Randy White epitomize the position with the franchise.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

I agree with Hos in so many areas.

I also think you need to get the book by Walt Garrison to really shed light on many things.

Not only is a story about the cowboys and the comic nature of Garrison, but he gives a good deal of stories and his takes on some of the players you mentioned.

You want to know how good lilly was...of ALL the cowboys, he is the one that is called MISTER COWBOY.

You should read garrison talking about him.

He was, and probably still is, the best defensive player the cowboys ever had.
That is saying a great deal when you consider Randy White came at the tail end of Lillys career and took over afterwards.

I think walt said that in order for Landry's defense to work you needed someone who could do multiple things in the middle and Lilly was that man. I think he basically said, if memory serves, that if not for Lilly that defense and the team would not be who they were and became.

 

[kingwhicker]

To understand Walt you've got to find his book "Once a Cowboy" and read it. You will laugh yourself silly. One example when talking about his small hometown. He said "the Stephensville hotel was like a tight pair of Wranglers...no ball room."

That is an awesome book. I love Walt.

 

[percyhoward]

-What was the play Jethro was remembered for in the Ice Bowl? You make it sound negative, but it's nothing that comes to mind....certainly not like Everson Walls on "the catch" which we've all seen 10000x.

Pugh got blocked out of the way by Packers guard Jerry Kramer, allowing Starr to sneak in for the winning TD.

Kramer moved slightly before the snap, incidentally.

 

[kingwhicker]

If anyone else has questions, please chime in. This is meant as a public service by this board to all of us young whipper snappers.

Some comments/clarification asked for:

-What was the play Jethro was remembered for in the Ice Bowl? You make it sound negative, but it's nothing that comes to mind....certainly not like Everson Walls on "the catch" which we've all seen 10000x.

-I guess I need to find some old Bob Lilly game film somewhere. You guys are echoing what I've always been told, but good god....it was so long ago. And he's not, atleast nationally, in the class of the Johnny Unitas' where you'll see film on TV.

-Would it be fair then to consider the Staubach/Morton debate the '70s version of Quincy/Hutch? Mind you the former were lightyears better, but I do remember the heated arguments around town during the latter.

-196 straight games? Seriously? That's got to be a record....that sounds like Cal Ripken in the NFL.

-Kinda wish, from what you're all saying, I could have witnessed Lilly in person. Shame he was inducted into the HOF the year before I was born

I've got plenty more questions, I'll pose them tomorrow. Thanks again guys, and I'd love more responses to the originals. The tradition of oral history is a great one, and while reading what Blackistone or Hitzges have to say is one thing, its great to get the input from old fans.

EDC, check out Cowboys Have Always Been My Heroes: The Definitive Oral History of America's Team by Peter Golenbock. That'll get you truly up to speed. It's a massive book but it covers an awful lot.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

The guy was just a man amongst boys and that is not belittling anyone else.

I was not old enough to really see him play, I think I started watching him in his last season.

However I have seen some of the old games years back and he was just a beast.

Check out this....The Sporting News named him a member of the All-Century NFL Team and "the greatest defensive tackle in NFL history".


I think the guy was around 6-4 and 250-260 pounds...and that was back in the early 60's.

Guy was big and from what I understand he was not much of a weight lifter as far as regimented exercise guy. From what I have gathered it was just all natural strength.

 

[Doomsday101]

The guy was just a man amongst boys and that is not belittling anyone else.

I was not old enough to really see him play, I think I started watching him in his last season.

However I have seen some of the old games years back and he was just a beast.

Check out this....The Sporting News named him a member of the All-Century NFL Team and "the greatest defensive tackle in NFL history".


I think the guy was around 6-4 and 250-260 pounds...and that was back in the early 60's.

Guy was big and from what I understand he was not much of a weight lifter as far as regimented exercise guy. From what I have gathered it was just all natural strength.

Bob Lilly was all everything to me as a kid growing up. Lilly played like a monster on the field but was an extremely nice man off the field. I'm glad I got to see him play for many seasons with the Cowboys.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

Bob Lilly was all everything to me as a kid growing up. Lilly played like a monster on the field but was an extremely nice man off the field. I'm glad I got to see him play for many seasons with the Cowboys.

It is funny you should bring that up because It is just funny thinking of such a monster on the field...yet off the field he was a enthusiastic photographer off the field and that carried on after his career.

 

[Doomsday101]

It is funny you should bring that up because It is just funny thinking of such a monster on the field...yet off the field he was a enthusiastic photographer off the field and that carried on after his career.

I read a story about how he got into becoming a photographer. It started when he was named to the Kodak College All Star team. Each member was given a nice camera and from there Lilly found another passion that he continues to this day.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

I read a story about how he got into becoming a photographer. It started when he was named to the Kodak College All Star team. Each member was given a nice camera and from there Lilly found another passion that he continues to this day.

Yep and it was funny reading in Garrisons book how he, Lilly, was always snapping pictures and at times players found it annoying.
Garrison also said that Lilly kept most of those pictures and Walt wound up using a few for his book.

 

[DallasCowpoke]

This is by far and away my favorite uniform combo of all time, and it wouldn't hurt my feelings in the least if they'd of made it their "home" look.

I own two Cowboys jerseys, both throwbacks, a #12 and a #74 double-star. THAT'S ALL I NEED!!

:a-team:

 

[WV Cowboy]

It may be hard for the younger fans to understand how good Lilly was, or how good Roger was, or Randy White.

But probably the hardest thing for them to realize was that back in the mid-late 60's there was no ESPN, no FOXSports, no internet sites, no message boards, no PTI or Around the Horn, no Monday night football, no Sunday night football, no USA Today paper.

Thanksgiving games in Dallas didn't start until 1966. 1st Super Bowl the same year.

The first time I ever saw a color TV set was that first Super Bowl > Packers -vs- Chiefs

We couldn't follow the NFL like now, not even our own team.

We didn't have any Staubach/Morton debates.

There was normally only one game shown on Sunday in our area. Might be the Steelers, the Packers, the Bears, ... the old traditional teams.

Sometimes you wouldn't know who won the game until the paper came on Monday.

Hard to imagine now.

 

[DallasCowpoke]

It is funny you should bring that up because It is just funny thinking of such a monster on the field...yet off the field he was a enthusiastic photographer off the field and that carried on after his career.

http://www.boblilly.com/html/reflections.htm

Most of us have seen this I'm sure, but there's some really neat stuff here.

 

[Doomsday101]

Yep and it was funny reading in Garrisons book how he, Lilly, was always snapping pictures and at times players found it annoying.
Garrison also said that Lilly kept most of those pictures and Walt wound up using a few for his book.

Including the one of Meredith who was getting started in his acting career. He had a makeup artist fix his face up like he had been all cut up and walks into the facilities like that to mess with Landry. I would also recommend getting the book "Bob Lilly Reflections"