Reach Block in Pictures

[Corso]

ok


Lol nobody gave Rob Ryan any slack for his defense not executing you can go right to the players lounge and hear Danny McCray talk about them not having time to learn Ryans defense in the lockout year. I'm also not the ones talking about it, the players and coaches.

Okay...

 

[Haimerej]

You shouldn't be so hard on yourself.

Who said I was a fan?

 

[Haimerej]

The TE is a backside clean up blocker. Clean up meaning find the immediate threat and block him.

I would prefer the Rams type blocking with Looney making the initial block but if that had been the design then the TE is probably not going to be coming back across.

They need to review the play and decide how to handle it in the future.

It's never going to be a perfect design. No play design can account for all defensive pre-snap movement and they can't change the blocking assignment every time the DL shifts.

Regardless most OL are not going to be able to make the block that CW attempted to make which was my initial point.

I think your assumption about the TE's assignment as a, "cleanup blocker," and the defensive shift causing confusion is off base.

Again, the defensive shift is to be expected from the motion switching the strong side. Furthermore, if they're zone blocking there's no need to adjust blocking assignments. Anytime a run play is zone blocked to the strongside the weakside guard is responsible for the 1 tech. That's a reach block you expect a lineman to make. It's not like the DT was head up with the center.

Maybe you could find an example of the play executed how you're saying it should have been executed. I've never seen a zone blocked run where a TE cleans up on a 1 tech.

 

[xwalker]

I think your assumption about the TE's assignment as a, "cleanup blocker," and the defensive shift causing confusion is off base.

Again, the defensive shift is to be expected from the motion switching the strong side. Furthermore, if they're zone blocking there's no need to adjust blocking assignments. Anytime a run play is zone blocked to the strongside the weakside guard is responsible for the 1 tech. That's a reach block you expect a lineman to make. It's not like the DT was head up with the center.

Maybe you could find an example of the play executed how you're saying it should have been executed. I've never seen a zone blocked run where a TE cleans up on a 1 tech.

1.
You're arguing details of a play that you have not even bothered to review the footage.

2.
If you can't be bothered to review the footage of this play, it is likely that you don't generally review game footage.

3.
The 49ers used an almost identical concept (see image below) with a TE shifting from backside to play-side and then the FB scraping down the line looking to clean up.
- Their OL was initially succeeding on the reach block and the FB moved on down the line.
- On this play the reach block was easier because they brought the RB across to take the handoff which meant the DL is not trying to jump the frontside gap because the RB is initially behind him.
- Just like on the Cowboys play, they wanted to get an overload on the frontside DL with 2 blockers which is why they didn't help the OL making the reach block.

 

[xwalker]

I think your assumption about the TE's assignment as a, "cleanup blocker," and the defensive shift causing confusion is off base.

Again, the defensive shift is to be expected from the motion switching the strong side. Furthermore, if they're zone blocking there's no need to adjust blocking assignments. Anytime a run play is zone blocked to the strongside the weakside guard is responsible for the 1 tech. That's a reach block you expect a lineman to make. It's not like the DT was head up with the center.

Maybe you could find an example of the play executed how you're saying it should have been executed. I've never seen a zone blocked run where a TE cleans up on a 1 tech.

In the Cowboys-49ers playoff game, if the 1tech was "winning" against the reach block, the 49ers RB would read it and cut back inside (behind the 1tech).
- The 49ers actually appeared to prefer that the 1tech "win" the frontside gap.
- They had several plays where the RB cut inside (behind the 1tech) and gashed the Cowboys defense.

The images below are the HEZ camera view of the Cowboys play before and after the TE moved past the 1tech.
- Either the TE should have helped on the immediate threat or Zeke should have cut to the inside behind the DL that was winning against the reach block.
- The TE not blocking the immediate threat and moving to the next gap only makes sense if Zeke is expected to cut back behind the 1tech.

Note: The player shifted to the 1tech position but he is the Falcon's 3tech DT.

 

[Haimerej]

1.
You're arguing details of a play that you have not even bothered to review the footage.

You're making an assumption. Time has passed since my post yesterday where I correctly identified the zone blocking scheme based off nothing but your still images.

2.
If you can't be bothered to review the footage of this play, it is likely that you don't generally review game footage.

Yet another assumption. I used to do breakdowns similar to your style at the old DC.com site. I would give timestamps to each play so everyone could follow along. There's a difference between having the time and inclination to do this and understanding what you're seeing play out. Nothing personal here.

Now that we've got the, "shoot the messenger," stuff out of the way, let's get back to the argument.

3.
The 49ers used an almost identical concept (see image below) with a TE shifting from backside to play-side and then the FB scraping down the line looking to clean up.
- Their OL was initially succeeding on the reach block and the FB moved on down the line.
- On this play the reach block was easier because they brought the RB across to take the handoff which meant the DL is not trying to jump the frontside gap because the RB is initially behind him.
- Just like on the Cowboys play, they wanted to get an overload on the frontside DL with 2 blockers which is why they didn't help the OL making the reach block.

Couple things right off-

No image of the presnap look. No citation for the play.

Green Bay is in a 3-4, so there's no way for me to tell if they're even using a 1-technique. My assumption is the NG is head up on the center. If that's the case, there's no reach block in your image. It looks like the C is 1 on 1 with the nose while the LG and LT are doubling the RE.

Lastly, it doesn't appear to be zone blocking on that play either. The LT is clearly blocking down with the LG likely with the intent of releasing to the 2nd level.

P.S. When I say, "nothing personal," I truly mean it. Just hashing out a disagreement here.

 

[jnday]

DLinemen can shift before the snap and OLinemen can't.
- The OC can change the blocking assignments but they can't do it every time a DL shifts.
- When DLinemen shift and the Center does not change the blocking assignments, some designed blocks can't be made.

If you thought the LG failed on this play, then you didn't have the full picture.

image 1: DL aligned over LG.

image 2: DL shifts to aligned on left shoulder of OC after TE motioned to the right side.

image 3: The run is to the right. LG can't reach block a DL that has 3/4" of a gap advantage.
- Notice that the scheme had a "backup plan" built in with the TE coming inside to block.
- Unfortunately the TE went to the next gap outside and didn't block the immediate threat.

I know first hand that a reach block in this situation is almost impossible. The center should have called an adjustment at the line. This is where they really miss Frederick.

 

[Haimerej]

In the Cowboys-49ers playoff game, if the 1tech was "winning" against the reach block, the 49ers RB would read it and cut back inside (behind the 1tech).
- The 49ers actually appeared to prefer that the 1tech "win" the frontside gap.
- They had several plays where the RB cut inside (behind the 1tech) and gashed the Cowboys defense

No offense, but that seems irrelevant to our discussion. As I recall, I was asking for an example of a clean up blocker helping on a 1 tech. And yes- I understand how zone run schemes depend on a RB making a read and picking a hole.

The images below are the HEZ camera view of the Cowboys play before and after the TE moved past the 1tech.
- Either the TE should have helped on the immediate threat or Zeke should have cut to the inside behind the DL that was winning against the reach block.

So you concede here that the premise of this thread was incorrect. Namely, that the offense was unable to adjust their blocking scheme because the defense shifted. You're acknowledging that the RB could have made a poor read for not cutting back.

You're also undermining your point about whether or not Williams failed in his assignment.

- The TE not blocking the immediate threat and moving to the next gap only makes sense if Zeke is expected to cut back behind the 1tech.

Or... if he was meant to get that backside LB.

Note: The player shifted to the 1tech position but he is the Falcon's 3tech DT.

When I say, "1 tech," I'm referring to the technique, not the player.

 

[xwalker]

I know first hand that a reach block in this situation is almost impossible. The center should have called an adjustment at the line. This is where they really miss Frederick.

Zeke probably should have seen the shift and anticipated the DT winning in the play-side gap.

If Zeke had anticipated it, he could have cut in behind the DT who was taking him self out of that area.

One of the plays that the Rams used repeatedly against the Cowboys in the playoff game was to let the 1tech DT "win" the play-side gap, the RB would read the 1tech and cut back to the inside. When the DT is moving to the outside and penetrating the play-side gap, he has no possibility of getting back to the inside.

 

[xwalker]

You're making an assumption. Time has passed since my post yesterday where I correctly identified the zone blocking scheme based off nothing but your still images.



Yet another assumption. I used to do breakdowns similar to your style at the old DC.com site. I would give timestamps to each play so everyone could follow along. There's a difference between having the time and inclination to do this and understanding what you're seeing play out. Nothing personal here.

Now that we've got the, "shoot the messenger," stuff out of the way, let's get back to the argument.



Couple things right off-

No image of the presnap look. No citation for the play.

Green Bay is in a 3-4, so there's no way for me to tell if they're even using a 1-technique. My assumption is the NG is head up on the center. If that's the case, there's no reach block in your image. It looks like the C is 1 on 1 with the nose while the LG and LT are doubling the RE.

Lastly, it doesn't appear to be zone blocking on that play either. The LT is clearly blocking down with the LG likely with the intent of releasing to the 2nd level.

P.S. When I say, "nothing personal," I truly mean it. Just hashing out a disagreement here.

The reach block in the 49ers play is by the OC.
- The point is to show the TE/FB come back across to clean up. He scrapes down the line from left to right looking to clean up any issues.
- The 2nd point is that the LG could have helped but they wanted to double the play-side Defender the same way the Cowboys doubled with Looney/Martin.

 

[buybuydandavis]

They can't change the call every time. DL would just keep shifting.

They had a clean up blocker (TE) designed into the scheme but he made the wrong block.

Connor Williams only had 3 blocks that were even questionable in the entire game.

Fans think their team should win every snap.

The other teams get paid also...

If dlines can shift, olines can change their calls. It's the same coordination problem. I'd hope they have built in options to their calls.

 

[xwalker]

No offense, but that seems irrelevant to our discussion. As I recall, I was asking for an example of a clean up blocker helping on a 1 tech. And yes- I understand how zone run schemes depend on a RB making a read and picking a hole.



So you concede here that the premise of this thread was incorrect. Namely, that the offense was unable to adjust their blocking scheme because the defense shifted. You're acknowledging that the RB could have made a poor read for not cutting back.

You're also undermining your point about whether or not Williams failed in his assignment.



Or... if he was meant to get that backside LB.



When I say, "1 tech," I'm referring to the technique, not the player.

Zone Blocking schemes are not all identical.

The premise of the thread was that Connor Williams should not be expected to make that block.
- At least not in the way people that see the 1tech win in the play-side gap think that he should have made it.

CW did not "fail". There is no undermining of that fact.

A good Zone Blocking is designed such that it is OK if an OL can't make a reach block.
- Other options are built into the scheme.
- On the play in question either the TE should have blocked the immediate threat or Zeke should have cut behind the 1tech.
- The Rams love it when the 1tech takes himself out of the middle by "beating" a reach block.

 

[Haimerej]

If dlines can shift, olines can change their calls. It's the same coordination problem. I'd hope they have built in options to their calls.

There shouldn't be a need to change a call. It's a zone blocking scheme and the defense did what every defense playing those techniques does in that situation- moved their 3 tech and 1 tech as the strong side of the offensive line changed.

 

[xwalker]

If dlines can shift, olines can change their calls. It's the same coordination problem. I'd hope they have built in options to their calls.

If the OC changes the blocking every time a DL shifts, the DL would just keep shifting until the play clock expired.

The Zone Blocking scheme has the possibility of DL shifts built into the scheme.

The Rams favorite play against the Cowboys in the playoff game was to let the 1tech "win" against the reach block.
- The RB would read the 1tech who has taken himself out of the middle if he is "winning" against a reach block.

There is a reason that the Rams and 49ers made it to the Super Bowl in large part due to their Zone Blocking schemes when both teams were far from the most talented rosters in their conference.

 

[Haimerej]

The reach block in the 49ers play is by the OC.

Citation please. Again- if the NT of the 3-4 is head up on the center there is no reach block. If he's shaded over playing a 1 tech then, yes.

- The point is to show the TE/FB come back across to clean up. He scrapes down the line from left to right looking to clean up any issues.

So... who did they clean up?

- The 2nd point is that the LG could have helped but they wanted to double the play-side Defender the same way the Cowboys doubled with Looney/Martin.

Ok

 

[buybuydandavis]

There shouldn't be a need to change a call. It's a zone blocking scheme and the defense did what every defense playing those techniques does in that situation- moved their 3 tech and 1 tech as the strong side of the offensive line changed.

You can say there shouldn't have been a need, but there was. We had 3 olinemen doing nothing useful.

 

[Haimerej]

Zone Blocking schemes are not all identical.

Maybe you should explain your understanding of a zone blocking scheme.

The premise of the thread was that Connor Williams should not be expected to make that block.
- At least not in the way people that see the 1tech win in the play-side gap think that he should have made it.

It's typical to reach block a 1 tech with the weakside G on a zone run. It's not typical to have a TE, "clean up," by coming across the zone. Do you see how that would cause a problem with the RB's read?

CW did not "fail". There is no undermining of that fact.

You undermined the point by presenting your either/or scenario. You said the TE should've helped or the RB should have made the zone blocking read. Can't have it both ways.

A good Zone Blocking is designed such that it is OK if an OL can't make a reach block.

Exactly. The RB makes the read. So why would they need a "clean up" blocker?

- Other options are built into the scheme.
- On the play in question either the TE should have blocked the immediate threat or Zeke should have cut behind the 1tech.
- The Rams love it when the 1tech takes himself out of the middle by "beating" a reach block.

So you're presenting a conflicting story. Your scenario makes the RB's job indecipherable. The RB is caught between, "cut back off the G's block," as you would expect in a zone or, "anticipate the TE will clean this up."

 

[Haimerej]

You can say there shouldn't have been a need, but there was. We had 3 olinemen doing nothing useful.

If our veteran offensive linemen can't handle something as basic as a defense adjusting to a shifted strongside, then we might as well forfeit the rest of the season.

If the OC changes the blocking every time a DL shifts, the DL would just keep shifting until the play clock expired.

The Zone Blocking scheme has the possibility of DL shifts built into the scheme.

Exactly

 

[Haimerej]

Well... guess you guys are done?

For anyone interested, here's a source that backs up all the stuff I've been saying. Probably should've started with this but thought I could simply point it out. Live and learn, I guess. Thanks for the discussion. It's rare around here that anyone actually talks football.