Review of DEs on the current roster

[DFWJC]

Remember when you could sign a Charles Haley and the team would always have enough cap room?

There was no NFL salary cap when we brought him in.

The cap started in 1994....but yes...odd how our rapid decline soon followed.

 

[theSHOW]

Yeah...good times. But that has nothing to do with my post. I didn't say we should/could have signed a Charles Haley esque player. My post was in response to xwalker saying the 2014 d line is comparable to 92's and us taking a DE early in this draft + Melton would be = to Russell Maryland and Charles Haley. Which is an absolutely ludicrous statement.

You said it your self...you can not predict the future. You seem bent on pouting about Melton not being solid. And fielding a Super bowl team for Romo. Most fans want that also but you seem to be reiterating that it is imposable. Maybe Melton will be better than Russell Maryland.

 

[theSHOW]

There was no NFL salary cap when we brought him in.

The cap started in 1994....but yes...odd how our rapid decline soon followed.

That (no cap) is my point

 

[DFWJC]

That (no cap) is my point

ahhhh
I'm a bit slow this morning.

 

[xwalker]

Yeah because an early draft pick is really going to be comparable to should be hall of famer Charles freaking Haley. If we had a Charles Haley esque player to go along with Melton no one would be complaining.

And you can't predict the future. No one knows what will happen. You seem to be trying to go with the mlb/nba version of you have to get worse before you get better rebuild. It's the nfl and its a win now league. Too many injury risks and too many things to go wrong to look into the future. Romo is here and making 20 mil a season for these next 3 years or so, can't squander any opportunities. Remember the dark ages of trying to find a QB before Romo came along?

The comparison was Haley to Melton with both being Pro Bowl type veteran players and Maryland to a top draft pick.

As the song says "know when to hold em know when to fold em". You have to be realistic. You can't completely make a team of free agents. See Commanders, Washington.

The Romo situation is probably the type of reasoning that Jerry has used every year while operating a method similar to how you want them to continue to operate. The Jerry/tm1119 method has proven to be a failure. It gets you 8-8, 8-8, 8-8 instead of 4-12, 10-6, 12-4.

 

[silver]

They shouldn't give up just because they haven't signed expensive free agent DLinemen or because they didn't draft DL at each pick in the top 3 rounds.

If there were internet message boards back in April or even July of 1992, people would have been freaking out because the Cowboys didn't have enough proven players at each position.
Similar status to Melton and an early draft pick:
67 Russell Maryland DT
94 Charles Haley DE

These guys would have been similar to Mincey and Selive
75 Tony Casillas DT - The equivalent of a street free agent that was cut by previous team
77 Jim Jeffcoat DE - over the hill veteran

All of these guys would have been called Jags on a message board:
95 Chad Hennings DT/DE
90 Tony Hill DE
97 Jimmie Jones DT
78 Leon Lett DT/DE
92 Tony Tolbert DE


What if you had the following options:

Option 1.
2014: 20% chance of being a playoff team
2015: 25% chance of being a playoff team

Option 2.
2014: 10% chance of being a playoff team
2015: 50% chance of being a playoff team.


Notice to other posters: This is just a theoretical question. The don't focus on the exact numbers, just the concept.

Revisionist history at its best. Casillas was a former top 5 draftee and he wasn't cut, we traded for him. Maryland was the 1st overall pick the previous year. Tolbert and Jones were fairly high draftees (4th in '89 and 3rd in '90). Jeffcoat was a former 1st rounder and career starter on his 10th yr. Lett was the steal of the 91' draft who dominated and was in the rotation from day one. Hennings, a rookie coming off a 4 yr break to to his Air Force commitment, was the Outland Trophy winner in '88 (hardly a JAG). And Haley was a beast @ San Francisco with 2 SB rings. So, no there is no comparison. Our best lineman today couldn't see the field in '92 or '91 for that matter.

 

[xwalker]

Yep.

No question they're in bad shape at DE.

Selvie shouldn't be a starter.

A early round DE would help matters some, but obviously more is needed.

Probably an early round DE this year and another next.

Hey if one of these "no-names" came on this season and put-up "Selvie" type of numbers that would be a plus– but I'm not counting on it.

Yes, I have everybody on the Strong Side in that sentence.

 

[xwalker]

Revisionist history at its best. Casillas was a former top 5 draftee and he wasn't cut, we traded for him. Maryland was the 1st overall pick the previous year. Tolbert and Jones were fairly high draftees (4th in '89 and 3rd in '90). Jeffcoat was a former 1st rounder and career starter on his 10th yr. Lett was the steal of the 91' draft who dominated and was in the rotation from day one. Hennings, a rookie coming off a 4 yr break to to his Air Force commitment, was the Outland Trophy winner in '88 (hardly a JAG). And Haley was a beast @ San Francisco with 2 SB rings. So, no there is no comparison. Our best lineman today couldn't see the field in '92 or '91 for that matter.

It's not a direct comparison. It's what message board posters would be saying if we had the internet back then.

 

[tm1119]

It's not a direct comparison. It's what message board posters would be saying if we had the internet back then.

Lol no, its not what anybody would have said. You're comparing UDFA's and guys cut from other teams to all highly regarded players. He just completely proved you wrong.

And call me crazy, but I thought we were 8-8 last because there was a severe lack of talent on the defense. Good thing we have the likes of Nick Hayden, Ben Bass, Jeremy Mincey, McClain, Ceaser Rayford/Martez Wilson, Kyle Wilber, and JJ Wilcox/Jeff Heath to save the day. Sounds like a really solid plan.

 

[tm1119]

You said it your self...you can not predict the future. You seem bent on pouting about Melton not being solid. And fielding a Super bowl team for Romo. Most fans want that also but you seem to be reiterating that it is imposable. Maybe Melton will be better than Russell Maryland.

Show me a single post where I said Melton wasn't going to be good. I'm talking about all of the other marginal talent that is going to fill out the line, front 7, and S positions.

 

[xwalker]

Lol no, its not what anybody would have said. You're comparing UDFA's and guys cut from other teams to all highly regarded players. He just completely proved you wrong.

And call me crazy, but I thought we were 8-8 last because there was a severe lack of talent on the defense. Good thing we have the likes of Nick Hayden, Ben Bass, Jeremy Mincey, McClain, Ceaser Rayford/Martez Wilson, Kyle Wilber, and JJ Wilcox/Jeff Heath to save the day. Sounds like a really solid plan.

If there were internet message boards back in April or even July of 1992, people would have been freaking out because the Cowboys didn't have enough proven players at each position.

This is my statement in that post, before I listed the players. If you can read, you can see that I was comparing them in terms of what message board posters would have said about them.

 

[tm1119]

This is my statement in that post, before I listed the players. If you can read, you can see that I was comparing them in terms of what message board posters would have said about them.

I fully understand what you're saying and it's still completely wrong. He just proved to you that they were all for the most part highly regarded players that aren't even comparable to the scrap parts we currently have. That is if you are capable of reading of course.

But I'm done with this argument. If you want to pretend like every player on the Cowboys roster is better than they actually are you can go right ahead. I personally choose not to live that lie.

 

[Oh_Canada]

Great analysis as per usual Walker.

I like Wilson best of the bunch, and have a feeling the Cowboys do as well. If he can put on five pounds or so he could be a guy that can contribute.

Rayford didn't show me much but that could be because he was hurt and was forced at times to rush from an inside position as the team was so limited by injuries.

Agree with Walker they need someone outside of Selvie and maybe Mincey to show something or they may have depth problems once again even if they draft one or two ends.

 

[visionary]

I fully understand what you're saying and it's still completely wrong. He just proved to you that they were all for the most part highly regarded players that aren't even comparable to the scrap parts we currently have. That is if you are capable of reading of course.

But I'm done with this argument. If you want to pretend like every player on the Cowboys roster is better than they actually are you can go right ahead. I personally choose not to live that lie.

agree with you tm
xwalker usually brings up great points in his posts (which i appreciate) but in this case, it is an apples to oranges comparison
the only halfway decent DE we have on the roster is Crawford and he almost a complete unknown at the NFL level

MAJOR upgrade is needed

 

[xwalker]

I fully understand what you're saying and it's still completely wrong. He just proved to you that they were all for the most part highly regarded players that aren't even comparable to the scrap parts we currently have. That is if you are capable of reading of course.

But I'm done with this argument. If you want to pretend like every player on the Cowboys roster is better than they actually are you can go right ahead. I personally choose not to live that lie.

There were only 4 players of any regard
Haley
Casillis
Jeffcoat
Maryland

Jimmie Jones was the highest draft pick of the other players as a 3rd. McClain was the 1st pick in the 3rd round. Jimmie Jones and the players other than the ones listed above would have been considered by internet fans similar to how they consider guys like McClain.

Fan expectations are probably similar for Melton as they would have been for Casillis.

Jeffcoat's career was winding down. Based on Jeffcoat's 1991 season and Selvie's 2013 season, fans would have a similar view of them.

Maryland was a 1st round draft pick on DL. The Cowboys are expected to draft a DL in the 1st round. If they get Donald, then fans would have a similar view of Donald as they had of Maryland.

Haley was just acquired in 1992 and the 49ers were eager to get rid of him. If the Cowboys had acquired a similar player this off-season, the fans would have said that Jerry got ripped off in the trade.

In June of 1992 if the internet was as it is today, message board fans would have been screaming that the Cowboys needed to get somebody like Reggie White or the season would be doomed.

 

[thunderpimp91]

agree with you tm
xwalker usually brings up great points in his posts (which i appreciate) but in this case, it is an apples to oranges comparison
the only halfway decent DE we have on the roster is Crawford and he almost a complete unknown at the NFL level

MAJOR upgrade is needed

You guys might be in for a big surprise. This line was atrocious a year ago, but you have a lot of talent here, and you're about to add a first round talent to that. Is a lot of that talent unproven? Yes, but talent none the less. Now if the injury bug hits us as bad as last season, we are in a whole lot of trouble..... but then again so would Seattle if they lost what we did last season.

 

[visionary]

You guys might be in for a big surprise. This line was atrocious a year ago, but you have a lot of talent here, and you're about to add a first round talent to that. Is a lot of that talent unproven? Yes, but talent none the less. Now if the injury bug hits us as bad as last season, we are in a whole lot of trouble..... but then again so would Seattle if they lost what we did last season.

you may be correct and i certainly hope that you are, the issue is that a review of the previous few years does not give any confidence that our decision-makers have any idea what they are doing

 

[thunderpimp91]

you may be correct and i certainly hope that you are, the issue is that a review of the previous few years does not give any confidence that our decision-makers have any idea what they are doing

Well I can't argue that too much. A lot of my optimism is based on us hitting on a 1st round Dine prospect. We miss there and see a guy like Melton go down with injury its gonna be along season. But if we can stay healthy we have a pretty good rotation, just can't have guys like Hayden playing every down again.

 

[Alexander]

Jeffcoat's career was winding down. Based on Jeffcoat's 1991 season and Selvie's 2013 season, fans would have a similar view of them.

Jeffcoat was an eight year vet at the time with 70 career sacks. Selvie is a four year player with 11.5 in his entire career, including last year which still could be described as a fluke. And you expect people to view him the same? How is that even possible?

Jeffcoat registered 24 sacks while starting only six games in the following three years before he left for Buffalo. If we demote Selvie and he records that kind of production, I think everybody would be pretty pleased. But I think there is a big difference between a proven veteran and a never-was one year wonder in terms of perception.

Haley was just acquired in 1992 and the 49ers were eager to get rid of him. If the Cowboys had acquired a similar player this off-season, the fans would have said that Jerry got ripped off in the trade.

Were you even aware of how fans felt at that time? The 49ers were eager to get rid of someone that they wanted out, but Haley was hailed as a huge difference maker, much like Desean Jackson is viewed now by Commanders fans. The fact the 49ers were eager to get rid of him has nothing to do with how excited the Cowboys and the fan base was. His first game in a Cowboy uniform shortly after being acquired against the Commanders was electric and an instant shot in the arm.

 

[xwalker]

Le

Jeffcoat was an eight year vet at the time with 70 career sacks. Selvie is a four year player with 11.5 in his entire career, including last year which still could be described as a fluke. And you expect people to view him the same? How is that even possible?

Jeffcoat registered 24 sacks while starting only six games in the following three years before he left for Buffalo. If we demote Selvie and he records that kind of production, I think everybody would be pretty pleased. But I think there is a big difference between a proven veteran and a never-was one year wonder in terms of perception.



Were you even aware of how fans felt at that time? The 49ers were eager to get rid of someone that they wanted out, but Haley was hailed as a huge difference maker, much like Desean Jackson is viewed now by Commanders fans. The fact the 49ers were eager to get rid of him has nothing to do with how excited the Cowboys and the fan base was. His first game in a Cowboy uniform shortly after being acquired against the Commanders was electric and an instant shot in the arm.

I followed the Cowboys just a closely then as I do now.

The pessimist fans in June 1992 still thought that the Cowboys sucked.

People were not happy with Jeffcoat back then because he had been around during some terrible seasons. He was tne Greg Ellis of that era.

With regards to Haley, this discussion is about fan perception prior to the season, not what actually happened when the season started.

Obviously, everything was different with fan perception of that roster when they saw them during that winning season.

Again this started as a comparison of fans perception not an actual comparison of players.

Pessimist fans:
1993 not excited about Haley
2014 not excited about Melton

Optimistic fans:
1993 were excited about Haley
2014 are excited about Melton