Romo or Brees

Super_Kazuya said:
If unlike the MarcusRock troll you are brave enough to take the bet, I am completely open minded to any suggestion you may have to appeal to an authority. I don’t have the slightest doubt his assertion about Romo’s statistics are rubbbish. It’s up to you.
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One thing MArcus has proven he is not is a troll. Disagreeing with you is not the definition of a troll.
 
percyhoward said:
That's basically what I did, and there's little difference in win correlation between ANY/A and passer rating, as they're both efficiency stats anyway.

Where I differ from the person who came up with the stats you're using is that person is looking at the player's entire career, which I think is a mistake. Players are remembered for their best five years or so -- sometimes less. A player's 9th-best year has no effect on his legacy one way or the other.

Anything that factors in era is appreciated, though.
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I got the stats from the Play Index on Pro football reference so I guess I'm the person who chose to look at the entire career. My reasoning is that if you can look at all the data it's better than a more limited set. Obviously that is a preference not an objectively better or worse method. It would also be a lot more difficult and time consuming to extract just the 5 best years using football ref.

I don't know that I'd agree that the 9th best year has no effect on a players legacy. There are a number of players that are in the HOF based on longevity more than peak performance. (Art Monk and Jerome Bettis come to mind.)
 
Super_Kazuya said:
Yes, that’s a fine excuse for your cowardice. You were challenged and you backed down into a corner, and now you and the MarcusRock troll have deluded yourselves into thinking everyone agrees with you, instead of laughing at you.

The man literally said it’s easier for Romo to have a higher completion percentage than Brees, despite Romo throwing 4000 passes of sample size. All you can do is laugh at the stupidity.
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What I've been saying is that it is easier for Romo to have a better completion % when he throws less in a season, it's his style, circumstances and offense that suggest that. Romo plays in a rushing centered offense, his passing offense was based primarily down field based. Romo especially when compared to Brees, throws significantly less to RBs which are shorter, safer and higher % throws to make. If Romo is attempting more passes, he's attempting more longer passes, based on our offensive scheme. Those additional passes are not suddenly going to all be short pass routes based on our offense, which would afford better completion %. The difference in attempts between Romo and Brees is that Brees is throwing more short routes based on their offensive philosophy.

The offensive philosophy is different for each team. The Cowboys are run based and if the running game is successful it doesn't require Tony to throw as often. It also means more favorable down and distance scenarios, less long yardage situations, more pocket time and makes plays like PA more effective. Tony is in a more favorable pass % situation. If Tony is having to throw more, it usually means that the running game is not as effective, so then he faces less favorable circumstances, longer down and distance and more nickel/dime coverage, blitzes etc, all of which will have an effect on his pass %. If Tony doesn't have to throw as often, he can pick his spots versus being forced to make plays because of lack of team support.

The Saints offense is different, they are not as dependent on the rushing game as ours. The Saints use short passes to their RBs, which in effect are long handoffs, they are high % throws. Brees is already an accurate passer, but it is galvanized by the short high % passing game they employ. If Romo is throwing more passes it's not by design, but need, which usually means more adverse conditions, inherently lower % conditions. If Romo is having to throw 40-45 passes a game, it's generally not a good sign because our offense isn't designed for that kind of frequency.

These stats are not derived in a vacuum, nor is each QB in the same team situation or philosophy. Romo may be capable of throwing more passes just as efficiently in a different offense, but in the offense he played in that would likely spell trouble, it's not designed to be that way.
 
percyhoward said:
Romo's "slow starts" separate him from all the elites, including Brees.

Career 1st quarter
Rodgers 107.9
Manning 101.2
Brees 97.7
Brady 97.6
Romo 83.4

Career rest of game (diff)
Rodgers 102.6 (-5.3)
Romo 100.8 (+17.4)
Brady 96.9 (-0.7)
Brees 96.3 (-1.4)
Manning 95.0 (-6.2)
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I blame that on JG and his game planning and play calling. It seems like way to many times our offense was stagnant early in games and it took Romo going into playground mode to jump start the offense. Unfortunately, that ability could be a blessing or a curse, but at least it was always exciting! :p
 
Roadtrip635 said:
What I've been saying is that it is easier for Romo to have a better completion % when he throws less in a season, it's his style, circumstances and offense that suggest that. Romo plays in a rushing centered offense, his passing offense was based primarily down field based. Romo especially when compared to Brees, throws significantly less to RBs which are shorter, safer and higher % throws to make. If Romo is attempting more passes, he's attempting more longer passes, based on our offensive scheme. Those additional passes are not suddenly going to all be short pass routes based on our offense, which would afford better completion %. The difference in attempts between Romo and Brees is that Brees is throwing more short routes based on their offensive philosophy.

The offensive philosophy is different for each team. The Cowboys are run based and if the running game is successful it doesn't require Tony to throw as often. It also means more favorable down and distance scenarios, less long yardage situations, more pocket time and makes plays like PA more effective. Tony is in a more favorable pass % situation. If Tony is having to throw more, it usually means that the running game is not as effective, so then he faces less favorable circumstances, longer down and distance and more nickel/dime coverage, blitzes etc, all of which will have an effect on his pass %. If Tony doesn't have to throw as often, he can pick his spots versus being forced to make plays because of lack of team support.

The Saints offense is different, they are not as dependent on the rushing game as ours. The Saints use short passes to their RBs, which in effect are long handoffs, they are high % throws. Brees is already an accurate passer, but it is galvanized by the short high % passing game they employ. If Romo is throwing more passes it's not by design, but need, which usually means more adverse conditions, inherently lower % conditions. If Romo is having to throw 40-45 passes a game, it's generally not a good sign because our offense isn't designed for that kind of frequency.

These stats are not derived in a vacuum, nor is each QB in the same team situation or philosophy. Romo may be capable of throwing more passes just as efficiently in a different offense, but in the offense he played in that would likely spell trouble, it's not designed to be that way.
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You are reading way too much into this. That’s not to say that what you are saying isn’t logical. But there is no way to sit here and anecdotally account for the style of offense that they both had for every year in their career. Nor is it even necessary.
The MarcusRock troll was making a purely mathematical argument. He was saying whatever you do, whether it’s football, horseshoes or throwing beer cans, that it is easier to be more successful at it if you do it less. Period. He was not thinking the way you are.
 
Roadtrip635 said:
I blame that on JG and his game planning and play calling. It seems like way to many times our offense was stagnant early in games and it took Romo going into playground mode to jump start the offense. Unfortunately, that ability could be a blessing or a curse, but at least it was always exciting! :p
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Here's a few other guys thrown in, just to show 1) how unusual it was for their first quarter not to be their best quarter, and 2) how Romo was vastly so much better after the first quarter. There was definitely some kind of dynamic regarding Romo, week-long preparation, and in-game adjustments that did not apply to any other successful QB.

Career 1st quarter
Rodgers 107.9
Ryan 102.5
Manning 101.2
Brees 97.7
Brady 97.6
Rthlsbrgr 96.9
Rivers 96.3
Romo 83.4

Career rest of game (diff)
Rodgers 102.6 (-5.3)
Romo 100.8 (+17.4)
Brady 96.9 (-0.7)
Brees 96.3 (-1.4)
Manning 95.0 (-6.2)
Rivers 94.3 (-2.0)
Rthlsbrgr 93.0 (-3.9)
Ryan 90.7 (-11.8)
 
Cowboy89 said:
Keep in mind that football is a team sport. Thus, Brees may have more playoff wins, yet it doesn't automatically= " Better".

In their prime, who would you rather have? Furthermore, who was better in your opinion?
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I think they were about equal. Seriously, both should be in the hall of fame.
 
percyhoward said:
Here's a few other guys thrown in, just to show 1) how unusual it was for their first quarter not to be their best quarter, and 2) how Romo was vastly so much better after the first quarter. There was definitely some kind of dynamic regarding Romo, week-long preparation, and in-game adjustments that did not apply to any other successful QB.

Career 1st quarter
Rodgers 107.9
Ryan 102.5
Manning 101.2
Brees 97.7
Brady 97.6
Rthlsbrgr 96.9
Rivers 96.3
Romo 83.4

Career rest of game (diff)
Rodgers 102.6 (-5.3)
Romo 100.8 (+17.4)
Brady 96.9 (-0.7)
Brees 96.3 (-1.4)
Manning 95.0 (-6.2)
Rivers 94.3 (-2.0)
Rthlsbrgr 93.0 (-3.9)
Ryan 90.7 (-11.8)
Click to expand...


In horse racing terms, Romo would be classified as a closer. You got the front runners that bolt out of the gate and set the pace, you have the stalkers that run just behind the pace setters and then you have the closers that run at the back of the pack and make a big push at the end.
 
Verdict said:
I think they were about equal. Seriously, both should be in the hall of fame.
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If Romo’s career had the longevity of Brees with the consistent numbers he was putting up I think Romo would definitely have to be considered but his career was cut short and without more team success he’ll never get in. And I certainly can’t present an argument he should be.

If Merideth doesn’t deserve consideration then Romo certainly doesn’t either and why Romo will probably join Dandy in Ring. Their careers just werent sustained long enough without more team success.
 
Super_Kazuya said:
If unlike the MarcusRock troll you are brave enough to take the bet, I am completely open minded to any suggestion you may have to appeal to an authority. I don’t have the slightest doubt his assertion about Romo’s statistics are rubbbish. It’s up to you.
Click to expand...
Seems like you might want to pick a different bet, didn't you lose the profile pic bet? How much more of a whooping do you need to take before you tap out?
 
OmerV said:
One thing MArcus has proven he is not is a troll. Disagreeing with you is not the definition of a troll.
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Thanks OmerV. I can handle being called a troll but there was a guy on here who once accused me of being an Eagles fan. That one hurt. 40 minute steaming shower and called my therapist to get me through that day. Finally turned a corner after 3 months.
 
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