Safety... The Defensive Equivalent of the Fading Role of Fullback

Hostile

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The NFL evolves all the time. Occasionally it will run in cycles where something from the past comes back, and then it goes away again gradually. Like the 46 Defense. It was huge, then defunct, now it is returning in bits and pieces and will likely fade away again. We'll see the same with the Wildcat Offenses.

We've all noted that Fullback is a position in the NFL just isn't the same as it used to be. There are very few Moose Johnston's anymore. Lorenzo Neal had as much to do with LaDanian Tomlinson's success as Moose did for Emmitt, but FBs like that are not high on priority lists much any more.

Safeties are the Defensive equivalent. They are going to gradually fade from importance. Mainly because very few of them can cover like a CB and many of them are going to follow the path of Rod Woodson from CB to Safety.

That is why I really wasn't upset when Antrel Rolle signed in New York with the Giants. Like Woodson, he is a CB who has moved to Safety. The money he commanded is the number one reason why I am not upset we missed out on him. I feel like we could move Terence Newman to Safety just like we have Alan Ball and be fine. Scandrick is more than capable of being a starting LCB.

That is also why I am not all that high on Bethea, or Atogwe, or any other option where we have to pay a team. The Cardinals got a great deal on Kerry Rhodes. I doubt you will see a huge drop off in production from Rolle to Rhodes for them. So they ended up with a bargain. Yet I still wouldn't want to pay the prices they did.

It is also why I don't want to pay the price of a Safety with our 1st or 2nd round pick. Not even for Earl Thomas if he is there. I just see it as an unnecessary luxury anymore. It is rare to find an Ed Reed or a Troy Palumalu and Earl Thomas may be that rare breed, but relying on them to stay healthy because the drop off if they don't is so severe that it just doesn't make it seem worthwhile.

Pass Offenses have become so sophisticated that coverage skills outweigh tackling skills at Safety. That is why a phenomenal athlete like Taylor Mays is being looked at more as a LB. That is why a Roy Williams could go from difference maker to liability in such a shirt time. The position is evolving and teams have to evolve with it.

I think you will see a time coming where teams play with only one Safety, who acts like a Center Fielder looking to cover to either side and the middle. You hardly even see Safety blitzes any more, but Corner blitzes still get called.

Dallas wanted to be ahead of this curve when they talked about using Scandrick in the "Star" position. In reality this was merely a recycling of the way Tom Landry used to use Cornell Green. Cornell remains one of the more under appreciated unsung heroes in the History of our team. He was a tremendous difference maker for a long time. I believe Newman, Ball or Scandrick could handle that role just fine if need be.

When Ball got drafted he weighed 172 pounds. I doubt he is 6 feet tall. I remember joking that he needed to step away from the salad bar. I doubt that today he is pushing 200. Yet he played Safety for us in 2009 and did a fairly good job of it. Why? Because his coverage skills as a CB benefited the way the NFL is evolving.

For this reason, I put more importance on CB in the 2010 Draft than I would Safety. Yeah, I'd take Earl Thomas if he falls to us. You don't pass on rare ability. But I don't think Safety is as big a need as people assume. Coverage ability is, which is why I think we will keep Sensabaugh ultimately but might let Ken Hamlin go.

If we want more INTs, and I think we all do, there are two ways that will happen. More pressure, and I think that arrives with a healthy Ware and a ready Spencer, and better coverage.
 

miamicowboy21

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I think the one dimensional Roy Willams type safety is a dying breed. You better be able to play in the box and cover.
 
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I totally agree with you Hostile. It's a pass first league these days, and you basically need your safeties to cover like corners. Safeties used to be crucial for stopping the run, but that was more in the days of bruising runners. In today's NFL, your D-Linemen and linebackers are the ones who have to stop the run, and safeties aren't needed nearly as much in that respect. Plus, good tackling is not about size anyway. Terence Newman is probably a better tackler at 190 pounds than many safeties who are 20 pounds heavier.

Hell, Antoine Winfield is like 5'9" 180, and he is one of the better tackling DBs in the league.
 

sonnyboy

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I agree Hos.

I've felt for some time now that College Safety prospects should have CB type skills if not actual game experience playing CB.


I also feel the FB roster spot may go the way of the Dodo.

Too many alternate formations that do not utilize a FB:
3WRs, 1TE, 1RB
2WRs, 2TE, 1RB
4WRs, 1RB

A team could easily run 90% or more of it's plays without a true FB or 2nd RB needed as a lead blocker.

If I ran a team, I'd carry a 4th TE over a FB.
I'd have the role of FB covered by my 3rd RB, one or more of my TEs and perhaps one or more of my LBs.
 

jobberone

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CBs have moved to S in the past. Charlie Waters and Herb Adderley come to mind. It just became passe when big box safeties came into vogue. Now you'll see it become commonplace again. Five CB formations have been around for the last few years as well.
 

Big Country

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That's a very nice post Hos. It certainly is a pass first league now and you have to be able to build a tremendous defense through great pressure and superior coverage skills. Last year (the 2nd half) I was totally confident in this defense's ability to be outstanding. I have waited for that kind of defense for years.

Last year, one of my sleeper players came to life, Anthony Spencer. He provided the complement to Ware that I thought Ellis never really could. Yes Ellis gave us one double digit sack season and he was a player that year, but I was never ever really high on Ellis. Ever! I liked him because he was a Cowboy, yes he was a savvy vet, yes he made some plays in his career, but he never developed into the scary dominant player that offensive coordinators have nightmares about planning for though. Ware is that kind of player, and Spencer can be that kind of player too. Spencer is strong as an ox and he also has speed to boot. Ellis was always average at speed to the ball.

Our coverage in the backfield is now up to par with some of the best defenses in the league. We are a top 5 coverage defense now and I can't wait to see how that can be applied next year. As Hos once said before, complete larceny of the ball is what this defense lacks and I think that is right around the corner. Our offense is super efficient and now with a defense getting turnovers and multiple opportunities for an already potent offense, we can wear teams out and get way up on them by the second half so they will be forced to throw the ball. That plays right into a great defense's hands.
 

Oh_Canada

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I think safety's are becoming more important than ever...look at the difference ball hawking safety's make to a defense especially so when they go missing from the lineup. MiamiCowboy hit it on the head, if you qualified this by saying bruising one dimensional safeties are a dying breed fine, but good cover safeties with playmaking ability are game changers.

Troy Polamalu
Bob Sanders
Ed Reed
Kenny Phillips

Those defenses are not the same without them and the difference is significant.
 

Hostile

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Joshmvii;3299480 said:
I totally agree with you Hostile. It's a pass first league these days, and you basically need your safeties to cover like corners. Safeties used to be crucial for stopping the run, but that was more in the days of bruising runners. In today's NFL, your D-Linemen and linebackers are the ones who have to stop the run, and safeties aren't needed nearly as much in that respect. Plus, good tackling is not about size anyway. Terence Newman is probably a better tackler at 190 pounds than many safeties who are 20 pounds heavier.

Hell, Antoine Winfield is like 5'9" 180, and he is one of the better tackling DBs in the league.
This is exactly why I posted this thread. It is a pass first league now, and as such coverage skills in a Safety is more important than skills stopping the run. Years ago, teams only threw on 3rd down. They mixed things up as all teams do, but primarily you had to stop the run. Tackling and hitting from a Safety was crucial to stopping a team. So you had hard hitting, sure tackling Safeties just about everywhere.

Now, you face teams who are going to throw the ball 50 times in one game. Coverage is more crucial than tackling. You need someone who can knock that ball away more than you need them to knock a receiver into next week.

Fewer and fewer teams are bulldozer running attacks too. So tackling up the middle, where the Safeties play is just less critical. But how many teams dump off over the middle? Almost all of them do now and coverage is key.
 
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Hostile;3299475 said:
The NFL evolves all the time. Occasionally it will run in cycles where something from the past comes back, and then it goes away again gradually. Like the 46 Defense. It was huge, then defunct, now it is returning in bits and pieces and will likely fade away again. We'll see the same with the Wildcat Offenses.

We've all noted that Fullback is a position in the NFL just isn't the same as it used to be. There are very few Moose Johnston's anymore. Lorenzo Neal had as much to do with LaDanian Tomlinson's success as Moose did for Emmitt, but FBs like that are not high on priority lists much any more.

Safeties are the Defensive equivalent. They are going to gradually fade from importance. Mainly because very few of them can cover like a CB and many of them are going to follow the path of Rod Woodson from CB to Safety.

That is why I really wasn't upset when Antrel Rolle signed in New York with the Giants. Like Woodson, he is a CB who has moved to Safety. The money he commanded is the number one reason why I am not upset we missed out on him. I feel like we could move Terence Newman to Safety just like we have Alan Ball and be fine. Scandrick is more than capable of being a starting LCB.

That is also why I am not all that high on Bethea, or Atogwe, or any other option where we have to pay a team. The Cardinals got a great deal on Kerry Rhodes. I doubt you will see a huge drop off in production from Rolle to Rhodes for them. So they ended up with a bargain. Yet I still wouldn't want to pay the prices they did.

It is also why I don't want to pay the price of a Safety with our 1st or 2nd round pick. Not even for Earl Thomas if he is there. I just see it as an unnecessary luxury anymore. It is rare to find an Ed Reed or a Troy Palumalu and Earl Thomas may be that rare breed, but relying on them to stay healthy because the drop off if they don't is so severe that it just doesn't make it seem worthwhile.

Pass Offenses have become so sophisticated that coverage skills outweigh tackling skills at Safety. That is why a phenomenal athlete like Taylor Mays is being looked at more as a LB. That is why a Roy Williams could go from difference maker to liability in such a shirt time. The position is evolving and teams have to evolve with it.

I think you will see a time coming where teams play with only one Safety, who acts like a Center Fielder looking to cover to either side and the middle. You hardly even see Safety blitzes any more, but Corner blitzes still get called.

Dallas wanted to be ahead of this curve when they talked about using Scandrick in the "Star" position. In reality this was merely a recycling of the way Tom Landry used to use Cornell Green. Cornell remains one of the more under appreciated unsung heroes in the History of our team. He was a tremendous difference maker for a long time. I believe Newman, Ball or Scandrick could handle that role just fine if need be.

When Ball got drafted he weighed 172 pounds. I doubt he is 6 feet tall. I remember joking that he needed to step away from the salad bar. I doubt that today he is pushing 200. Yet he played Safety for us in 2009 and did a fairly good job of it. Why? Because his coverage skills as a CB benefited the way the NFL is evolving.

For this reason, I put more importance on CB in the 2010 Draft than I would Safety. Yeah, I'd take Earl Thomas if he falls to us. You don't pass on rare ability. But I don't think Safety is as big a need as people assume. Coverage ability is, which is why I think we will keep Sensabaugh ultimately but might let Ken Hamlin go.

If we want more INTs, and I think we all do, there are two ways that will happen. More pressure, and I think that arrives with a healthy Ware and a ready Spencer, and better coverage.




good post, but I'm a little lost. So if not Hamlin, who do you want to be the starting FS next year? Also, Wades scheme rarely asks the FS to man cover, but more of a centerfielder/zone coverage, so I wouldn't be upset if we got Atogwe because thats what he excels at, I agree though that he cant man cover. But I'm pretty sure Bethea is very good in man? I might be mistaken.
 

Hostile

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Oh_Canada;3299511 said:
I think safety's are becoming more important than ever...look at the difference ball hawking safety's make to a defense especially so when they go missing from the lineup. MiamiCowboy hit it on the head, if you qualified this by saying bruising one dimensional safeties are a dying breed fine, but good cover safeties with playmaking ability are game changers.

Troy Polamalu
Bob Sanders
Ed Reed
Kenny Phillips

Those defenses are not the same without them and the difference is significant.
I covered that by saying CBs moving to Safety because of coverage skills. Whether we want to admit it or not, there aren't many Ed Reed's out there. You stand a better chance to adapt by moving a CB to S than to find an Ed Reed. I said Earl Thomas may be the next.

I covered this.
 

Four

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Once all the teams convert their defenses to cover the pass then teams will start running again.
 

Hostile

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CanuckCowboysFan;3299516 said:
good post, but I'm a little lost. So if not Hamlin, who do you want to be the starting FS next year? Also, Wades scheme rarely asks the FS to man cover, but more of a centerfielder/zone coverage, so I wouldn't be upset if we got Atogwe because thats what he excels at, I agree though that he cant man cover. But I'm pretty sure Bethea is very good in man? I might be mistaken.
I suppose if I had my choice it would be Newman. He's 31, decent hitter when you need, top notch coverage skills, especially when he can wait on the ball like Safeties can. His speed would be an asset.

It also allows us to start Scandrick, who I think is a top notch young player who when trusted will develop into a very good CB. We can draft a CB for the slot if we need to and get better coverage skills than most Safeties can provide.

I would move towards carrying more CBs and fewer Safeties and focus that move on coverage skills.
 

Hostile

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Four;3299518 said:
Once all the teams convert their defenses to cover the pass then teams will start running again.
Absolutely correct. As I said in the very first paragraph, these things run in cycles.
 

Oh_Canada

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Hostile;3299517 said:
I covered that by saying CBs moving to Safety because of coverage skills. Whether we want to admit it or not, there aren't many Ed Reed's out there. You stand a better chance to adapt by moving a CB to S than to find an Ed Reed. I said Earl Thomas may be the next.

I covered this.

Ok, misunderstood the point. I agree that the traditional safety is a dying breed, you will be seeing more and more Jarius Byrd's converting to safety and making an impact.
 

SkinsHokieFan

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Hos

I agree in general but I think you need to be more specific. The in the box, tackling machiene strong safety is going the way of the fullback

However, you still need a dynamite cover free safety, who is versatile, and more importantly smart.

Guys who are the old school typical strong safety who played the run and tackled first, and were essentially a 4th linebacker are now a thing of the past. However a smart, versatile free safety that can cover and basically act as a 3rd corner is the future
 

Hostile

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Oh_Canada;3299527 said:
Ok, misunderstood the point. I agree that the traditional safety is a dying breed, you will be seeing more and more Jarius Byrd's converting to safety and making an impact.
Really great example. Thank you.
 

VACowboy

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This why my pick at #27 is Kyle Wilson. People say, "No way. Safety is a bigger need than corner." And my answer is, this day and age, I'd rather have a ballhawking cover guy like Wilson at "safety" than any "safety" we can sign in FA or will have a chance to draft.
 

Hostile

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SkinsHokieFan;3299529 said:
Hos

I agree in general but I think you need to be more specific. The in the box, tackling machiene strong safety is going the way of the fullback

However, you still need a dynamite cover free safety, who is versatile, and more importantly smart.

Guys who are the old school typical strong safety who played the run and tackled first, and were essentially a 4th linebacker are now a thing of the past. However a smart, versatile free safety that can cover and basically act as a 3rd corner is the future
Again, I covered this.

Hostile said:
I think you will see a time coming where teams play with only one Safety, who acts like a Center Fielder looking to cover to either side and the middle.
 

Hostile

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VACowboy;3299536 said:
This why my pick at #27 is Kyle Wilson. People say, "No way. Safety is a bigger need than corner." And my answer is, this day and age, I'd rather have a ballhawking cover guy like Wilson at "safety" than any "safety" we can sign in FA or will have a chance to draft.
I think we need OL in the 1st and CB more than Safety. JMO.
 
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