Scot McCloughan becoming Commanders GM

[Eric_Boyer]

This isn't a quick fix. This, as SHF posted, is a have a good organization by 2017. All of the top teams in this league: Baltimore, Green Bay, New England, Seattle, all have stable, competent, personnel-based Front Offices. We have not had that in 20+ years.

Will it work? Who knows. If you're trying to not drink watching the Commanders and working for Dan Snyder might not be the best move. This could very well, blow up in our faces. But this is the type of move that the Commanders sorely need.

he has not stopped drinking. he claims to of given up vodka....we will see......

 

[Risen Star]

Seems like a good move to me for the Commanders.

But you have to wonder how much real power he'll have with the little tyrant around.

 

[Risen Star]

But, LOL @ the arguably the league's best talent evaluator line. Everybody knows that's Will McClay.

 

[NIBGoldenchild]

I think it's a good get for Washington, but it certainly begs the question of what exactly they're paying Bruce Allen to do?

If McCloughan is fully past his substance issues, he'll be a fine addition (and one that I had hoped we could somehow incorporate in Dallas).

But with Gruden as head coach and RGIII still there, I don't see any type of quick fix happening.

Allen is still Team President, he'll likely handle contract negotiations and other operational duties. You know, stuff he's actually good at.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

The front office is where is starts. You have to have a good front office in this league. Yes, you need a good coach--but you need good scouts and GM to identify good players.

As I've shown, repeatedly....this 'eye for good talent' concept is a myth.

The fact is, and we've seen this from numerous draft boards over the years from different teams, is that 99% of the players in the draft have virtually the same exact draft grade. You're just not going to see many players in the draft where a team gives a 2nd round grade and the rest of the league gives that player a 6th round grade. And even less so where you may see a player where half the league gives him a 2nd round grade and the other half gives that player a 6th round grade.

And if you do, it is usually because of either injury issues or character issues.

Ronald Leary is a good example. He went undrafted, but the Cowboys had a 3rd round grade on him. But, he went undrafted because he had a serious knee issue.

You mentioned Scot Pioli--with Andy Reid coming in and suddenly they're good. You really believe Pioli had nothing to do with that?

I really don't.

If he was so good, then why did they go 23-41 and finish with a 2-14 record in his final season? If the players are so good, why were the Chiefs so bad?

Justin Houson, for example, was drafted in the 3rd round in 2011,

Yes, and that was the grade he had on him from numerous services and draft boards that came out. It wasn't like he had a 7th round grade on him and the Chiefs were the only team with a 3rd round grade on him and they felt they had to make the move for Houston and they were right. He had a 2nd-3rd round grade on him and they happened to pick him and with Andy Reid as the HC, a coach that has routinely had excellent pass rushers on his team, and Bob Sutton...Houston became an All-Pro player. But under Romeo Crennel he was a pretty good player.

Pioli left in 2012, and from what I understand, it was personality based rather than personnel based.

Well, that and the 23-41 record and that Jovan Belcher incident.

Pioli, and that FO laid the ground work.

He did?

Alex Smith
Jamaal Charles
Dwayne Bowe
Travis Kelce
Tamba Hali
Derrick Johnson
Kurt Coleman

Extremely valuable players to KC and were not brought in by Pioli.

And if he was soooo good, why was hit team 23-41 including a 2-14 season in his last year?

The Cowboys didn't get over the hump until they stopped trading for people like Roy Williams, and started drafting people like Fredrick and Martin, and Murray stayed healthy.

Martin had a mid-first round grade on him. Frederick had a mid-2nd round grade, but we took him early since that was considered a poor draft class and everybody was taking interior O-Linemen and we badly needed a center. Murray had a 3rd round grade on him...and we took him there.

Frederick and Martin have arguably the best O-Line coach in football in Bill Callahan. Murray went from a straight line runner to a power-speed combo runner that cuts very well is a ferocious blocker and good receiver out of the backfield.

Did Garrett just suddenly become a great coach?

Who said he was a bad one?

We had a gazillion injuries in each of 2011, 2012 and 2013. We went thru 6 centers...all due to injuries in 2012. Our defense got injured even worse. And we still went 29-27 despite all of those injuries.

What we have done is gotten Garrett to do what he is good at...acting like the CEO for the team. He oversees the team and gives it the general vision and direction he wants for the team. Jerry, Stephen, McClay, etc. are like a Board of Directors. Linehan/Callahan are VPs of the offense. Marinelli/Kiffin are VPs of the defense. Garrett is no longer calling the plays as he's got Linehan to do that for him.

You mentioned all the GMs that struggle to find talent in other places--but there is a longer list of coaches who have success with one team, only to struggle other places. You really think Pete Carroll is that good of a coach?

I think Pete Carroll is an exceptional coach.

For all of the talk about New England, he still had a good record there. Part of the issue was that he was young and needed to mature as a HC.

He then went to USC and DOMINATED the entire NCAA. To the point where no other coach can, even Nick Saban cannot dominate college like Carroll did.

And then he comes to Seattle....and they INSTANTLY get better. And they end up having an elite defense. I know this may be over a Skins fan head, but is it really crazy to think that the Seahawks became a great defense because their coach, a well respected defensive minded coach...is coaching them to be a great defense?

We'll see what happens, but, there is no comparison between Allen and McCloughan. You can keep saying that Allen was supposed to be a "real GM,"

I didn't say that Allen was a 'real GM.' It was Skins fans like yourself that were singing his praises and claiming he was that final piece to the puzzle. And then when that falls flat on your face...you go to claiming that the next person is going to be the final piece of the puzzle and we should really believe you this time, even though you've been wrong for the last 20 years.

but: 1. After 9 years of Cerrato, ANYONE is a real GM.

So, I'm supposed to believe you now that McCloughan is the final missing piece?

3. Allen's background is in contracts and cap, not personnel.

Wrong.

Allen was a GM responsible for personnel decisions going back to his days in the USFL.

McCloughan grew up in Green Bay under Ron Wolf, and has built two Super Bowl contenders.

Yes, he also had a coaching staff of Mike Holmgren, Jon Gruden, Andy Reid and Steve Mariucci. The Niners had 8-straight losing seasons and then Jim Harbaugh comes along and they go 44-19-1 in four seasons. In fact, they went 21-27 when McCloughan was GM and Mike Singletary was the head coach. Guess his 'eye for talent' just wasn't up to par those years.





YR

 

[SkinsHokieFan]

Seems like a good move to me for the Commanders.

But you have to wonder how much real power he'll have with the little tyrant around.

I think that is a legit point.

Good talent evaluator. Can find talent.

Will he be allowed to do what he can do?

 

[Sonny#9]

Seems like a good move to me for the Commanders.

But you have to wonder how much real power he'll have with the little tyrant around.

He turned down the Raiders because he did not want to work under Reggie McKenzie; total control was a requirement

 

[NIBGoldenchild]

I think the sooner you move on from Gruden and Griffin, the sooner that happens.

What say you?

If Scot wants to fire Gruden than I'm all for it. I was non-plussed with the Gruden hire to begin with, and I feel with this guy in charge and garnering the amount of respect that he does, we could get a better HC in here to build this team up.

 

[NIBGoldenchild]

Even then, the talent level is so bad, this is going to take several years

Right now I have 6 legit NFL players on this roster- Trent Williams, Desean Jackson, Alfred Morris, Ryan Kerrigan, Kennan Robinson, Baushad Breeland. Maybe Jordan Reed.

After that its garbage. Need to find 45 more guys who are NFL talent

I'd add Pierre Garcon to that list. You don't catch more passes than anyone else in 2013 and not be an NFL talent.

 

[Sonny#9]

Long post, missing the point

Go back and look what I said. You need good coaches. But you need good players on the field as well--you need a good GM, a good front office, and good scouts identifying talent. You can have great coaches, but if you have a boob in the front office, it isn't going to work. Gibbs was under .500 in his second stint. Belicheck failed in Cleveland. I can go on, but really, it'd just be the same arguments over and over again.

Add to that, I never said this was definitely going to work. Please go back and look at what I said, again. I said this is the right move, right now. I repeatedly said I have no idea how this is going to turn out, and the Commanders could very well screw this up. I said all skepticsm is warranted. But he is the type of hire we have never made. Ever. Every report says he is a highly-respected, personnel expert. Can you say that about Allen when he was hired? Absolutley not. There were many questions about his ability to build a roster--especially in Tampa. I love the hire, I love the move. Will it work? WE WILL SEE.

Finally, if you're going to throw insults "this maybe over a Skins fan head", I have no interest in continuing this conversation. I was being civil, if you're incapable of that, I will be more than happy to put you on the ignore list and be happy about it.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

This is a players league

The very design of the league makes it *not* a player's league outside of the QB position.

The league is designed for parity and outside of this season, it runs on high octane parity.

and in particular find cheap players in the draft league and have 30 guys on your team under their first contract league.

Every team can find cheap players in the draft. Dallas drafted Jay Ratliff in the 7th round. But, that's where his draft grade was at. Had he gone to Washington, he may have stunk despite being drafted in the 7th round. But, his career wasn't made until he started playing for Wade Phillips who has a track record of developing great NT's.

If you can't find players (which the Commanders never can besides a guy here and there) you are screwed because of how much you rely on FA and thusly have no depth.

The Skins don't draft much. Tough to find players in the draft if you're not drafting.

One of your former coaches is a good example. The Saints were a joke of a franchise under Haslett. In just *1* year, Sean Payton turns them into a NFC Conference Championship team. 3 years later they win the Super Bowl. Did Mickey Loomis suddenly become a great GM? Did Tom Benson become a great owner? Or did they just get a far better head coach who is an offensive mastermind?

This is a guy who pretty much put together the teams on the field in the NFC title game last year.

Yes, the Niners went 21-27 under McCloughan's 'eye for talent.' Then they hired Jim Harbaugh and suddenly they go 13-3, 11-4-1, and 12-4. Couldn't be a coincidence? Nah, McCloughan just happened to 'lay the ground work.' Ask Pete Carroll if he's more worried about McCloughan leaving or happier about Jim Harbaugh leaving.

Did Jimmy Johnson suddenly forget how to coach in Miami? Parcells in Dallas? Gibbs in Washington 2.0?

Parcells and Gibbs greatly improved their teams. I guess that flies over your head, but you're a Skins fan so that is expected...even if you're talking about your own demigod coach for your own team.

The Dolphins stayed the same under Jimmy as they were in the last few years under Shula.

And supposedly Jimmy had 'total control' in Dallas and total control in Miami. So by default, that kills your argument about how important the GM position is because if Jimmy was soooo great of a scout for talent, then he must have 'lost that eye for talent' in the Miami sun.






YR

 

[yimyammer]

was kind of hoping Dallas would tap that resource for player evaluation

article about him ---> http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/sto...l-best-talent-scout-self-employed-living-farm

 

[Sonny#9]

The very design of the league makes it *not* a player's league outside of the QB position.

The league is designed for parity and outside of this season, it runs on high octane parity.



Every team can find cheap players in the draft. Dallas drafted Jay Ratliff in the 7th round. But, that's where his draft grade was at. Had he gone to Washington, he may have stunk despite being drafted in the 7th round. But, his career wasn't made until he started playing for Wade Phillips who has a track record of developing great NT's.

Who identifies and finds those players?

One of your former coaches is a good example. The Saints were a joke of a franchise under Haslett. In just *1* year, Sean Payton turns them into a NFC Conference Championship team. 3 years later they win the Super Bowl. Did Mickey Loomis suddenly become a great GM? Did Tom Benson become a great owner? Or did they just get a far better head coach who is an offensive mastermind?

Well, Drew Brees kinda had something to do with that, as well. Again,who was responsible for him going to NO? Probably a combined effort of the coach and the GM and front office.

Yes, the Niners went 21-27 under McCloughan's 'eye for talent.' Then they hired Jim Harbaugh and suddenly they go 13-3, 11-4-1, and 12-4. Couldn't be a coincidence? Nah, McCloughan just happened to 'lay the ground work.' Ask Pete Carroll if he's more worried about McCloughan leaving or happier about Jim Harbaugh leaving.

I'd rather ask John Schneider what he thinks, since McLoughan was on the Seattle Staff when they brought in Carroll. And all of a sudden they are one of the best drafting teams in the league.

Parcells and Gibbs greatly improved their teams. I guess that flies over your head, but you're a Skins fan so that is expected...even if you're talking about your own demigod coach for your own team.

The Dolphins stayed the same under Jimmy as they were in the last few years under Shula.

Right, because they're good coaches. You're missing the point: good coaches are necessary, but you need good players. You need players who have the ability to play the game.

And supposedly Jimmy had 'total control' in Dallas and total control in Miami. So by default, that kills your argument about how important the GM position is because if Jimmy was soooo great of a scout for talent, then he must have 'lost that eye for talent' in the Miami sun.

So, did he just forget how to coach too?

Look, the McCloghan hire is a great hire, on the surface. It is a step in the right direction--one step in a marathon of fixing this team. And it's never one guy who fails or succeeds, its everyone: coaches, scouts, GMs, financial experts. It's a team effort--minimizing or glorifying one group over the other is narrow-sighted at best.

 

[SkinsHokieFan]

You win with good players.

Exhibit 1: Mike Shanahan

Exhibit 2: Barry Switzer


Most importantly this represents a shift in Snyder's insulated world of "I am smarter then everyone else and will do things my way" line of thought.

Good teams have good talent evaluator. McCloughan is a an excellent elevator

 

[CowboyChris]

I am in agreement that McCloughan could be a great hire for you guys, but i have alot of concerns.

1. Is Jay Gruden the right coach?

2. Is RG3 your franchise QB going forward?

Its no secret that Gruden and RG3 are at odds, and most likely one will go.

3. Will the fanbase and FO be patient enough to see this through? i saw alot of people wanting Gruden gone after this year, former coaches canned early and often.

4. How much control will he have? You got Synder, Allen, Gruden, AJ Smith (I think is still a consultant) who will WANT to have input on players.

5. Will the draft philosphy change? The Commanders have almost never cared about the draft..... instead focusing on bigtime splash free agents and major trades in the draft.... resulting in alot of less picks.

6. Will he hire new scouts? Does he keep Scott Campbell?

these would be my concerns going forward, not too mention the Fans and Media will want to see results immediately. Good Luck.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Well, Drew Brees kinda had something to do with that, as well. Again,who was responsible for him going to NO? Probably a combined effort of the coach and the GM and front office.

If Sean Payton wasn't in New Orleans, the only way Drew Brees was coming there is if he had nowhere else to go. Remember, Brees was all set to go to Miami, but didn't pass their physical as well. But, there's no way Brees is coming there if Haslett was still the coach.

I'd rather ask John Schneider what he thinks, since McLoughan was on the Seattle Staff when they brought in Carroll. And all of a sudden they are one of the best drafting teams in the league.

I'd rather ask Schneider as well....is he more scared of McLoughan leaving or happy that Harbaugh is leaving? I'm guessing he would agree with his head coach.

Right, because they're good coaches. You're missing the point: good coaches are necessary, but you need good players. You need players who have the ability to play the game.

You're missing the point.

You're not likely going to find a player that the rest of the league doesn't know about.

If I select a player in the 2nd round, it's almost certain that player had a grade of right around a 2nd round pick. And that your team and the other 30 teams probably gave that same player the same grade. So for him to be drafted, it usually means that it was a matter of circumstance. He fits the scheme and the type of player that the coach feels he can work with.

If the coach isn't very good (or if the coach struggles to develop the position the player plays), it's likely that that player isn't going to perform very well. But, if the coach is good (or is good at developing players at that position), it's likely that the player will perform well (provided he stays healthy).

Is that an 'eye for talent?' You and EVERY OTHER TEAM IN THE LEAGUE has given him the virtually the *same* grade.

Or is it the coach and the coaching staff's ability to develop players, particularly at that position.

So, did he just forget how to coach too?

Answer my question first.








YR

 

[Yakuza Rich]

You win with good players.

Exhibit 1: Mike Shanahan

Exhibit 2: Barry Switzer

Again, it just flies over Skins fans heads.

If you have a great coach that is great at developing talent and then that coach leaves, there's going to be some positive residual effect no matter who the coach is.

Switzer and Wade both proved that.

Did Jerry get better at evaluating talent in the Parcells years? Did he become extremely good at evaluating talent...even better than under Parcells...from 2007-2009 when he went 33-15?

Or was it that Parcells was a great developer of talent that had to work thru the crap that Campo left him (in part due to Jerry putting Campo in salary cap hell, but Campo was a terrible coach).

And was it that Wade came along and started to get all of the talent that Parcells had *developed* and put together that 33-15 record until 2010 when the years of Wade and his poor development of players landed him with a 1-7 record to start 2010. And then Garrett had to work thru the crap that Wade was unable to develop?

Or is Jerry completely bi-polar when it comes to talent? Having horrible years of 'drafting' and then excellent years?

Good teams have good talent evaluator. McCloughan is a an excellent elevator

Nah.

Good teams have good coaches. They bring in a steady influx of talent and don't throw away drafts for FA's and don't sign guys going north of 30 to large contracts because you can't bring in personnel.

For the most part, every team in each draft has the same grade on almost every single player. The players are usually drafted more thru circumstance than anything else (position needs, fitting the scheme, etc).

Scouts, Personnel execs and GM's love to make themselves look smart so they look important and keep their job and get future jobs that pay more. But, the dirty little secret is that the coach has far more to do with a team's success than they ever will.







YR

 

[SkinsHokieFan]

I am in agreement that McCloughan could be a great hire for you guys, but i have alot of concerns.

1. Is Jay Gruden the right coach?

2. Is RG3 your franchise QB going forward?

Its no secret that Gruden and RG3 are at odds, and most likely one will go.

3. Will the fanbase and FO be patient enough to see this through? i saw alot of people wanting Gruden gone after this year, former coaches canned early and often.

4. How much control will he have? You got Synder, Allen, Gruden, AJ Smith (I think is still a consultant) who will WANT to have input on players.

5. Will the draft philosphy change? The Commanders have almost never cared about the draft..... instead focusing on bigtime splash free agents and major trades in the draft.... resulting in alot of less picks.

6. Will he hire new scouts? Does he keep Scott Campbell?

these would be my concerns going forward, not too mention the Fans and Media will want to see results immediately. Good Luck.

All valid thoughts and concerns. Those are my questions as well

1) No idea. Time will tell and I am far from sold on Gruden

2) Probably not. I expect, based on McCloughan's track record in SF, that he will bring in competition and take a flier on a QB late in the draft

3) This should not matter, but it does to Snyder. Again, a valid thought

4) By the sounds of it McCloughan will have full control. Again, not sure yet and this is critical. Having him contractually in charge of buying the groceries is vital IMO

5) I would imagine so. As I posted earlier, McCloughan has been someone who makes lots of picks. in 6 years he had 9 first round picks while the Commanders have had 9 first round picks in 13 years

6) Again, by the sounds of it, he will. No confirmation yet. Does SC stay? No idea

 

[Sonny#9]

I'd rather ask Schneider as well....is he more scared of McLoughan leaving or happy that Harbaugh is leaving? I'm guessing he would agree with his head coach.

Well, Harbaugh left after not getting along with Baalke and other front office staff. Meanwhile, Chip Kelly just won a power struggle with the GM.

You're not likely going to find a player that the rest of the league doesn't know about.

If I select a player in the 2nd round, it's almost certain that player had a grade of right around a 2nd round pick. And that your team and the other 30 teams probably gave that same player the same grade. So for him to be drafted, it usually means that it was a matter of circumstance. He fits the scheme and the type of player that the coach feels he can work with.

If the coach isn't very good (or if the coach struggles to develop the position the player plays), it's likely that that player isn't going to perform very well. But, if the coach is good (or is good at developing players at that position), it's likely that the player will perform well (provided he stays healthy).

Is that an 'eye for talent?' You and EVERY OTHER TEAM IN THE LEAGUE has given him the virtually the *same* grade.

Or is it the coach and the coaching staff's ability to develop players, particularly at that position.

This is where we disagree. The difference between having a good front office is the ability to find that player that very few people know about--not everyone is going to have the same grade on the same player. Cerrato and the Commanders drafted Malcom Kelly in the 2nd round, many teams had him on their do not draft list. The Seahawks took Bruce Irvin in the 1st round, the Commanders had a 7th round grade on him. The Raiders took Mike Mitchell in the 2nd round--many teams didn't have a scouting report on him. Yes, I agree 100% that it takes a good coaching staff to develop that player--but you need a talented staff--General Manager on down throughout the organization, to identify the type of player the coach is looking for. Would Richard Sherman be worth a **** in Washington? Maybe, maybe not. We'll never know because our talent evaluators took Dejon Gomes instead, who is out of the league. Is that coaching or talent evaluation?

Answer my question first.

Honestly, I have no idea why Jimmy Johnson failed in Miami. I am willing bet, thought, he probably didn't have the same support structure he had in Dallas, as far as scouts, etc. However--his case speaks directly to my point. If identifying players was so easy, every coach/gm should have succeeded, when most fail. Why is that? Because there is far too much work that goes into both for one person to do.

Add to that, Barry Switzer is a complete moron, but had a roster full of future HOFers, and won a Super Bowl. Is he a better coach, then say Andy Reid?

 

[Stash]

If Scot wants to fire Gruden than I'm all for it. I was non-plussed with the Gruden hire to begin with, and I feel with this guy in charge and garnering the amount of respect that he does, we could get a better HC in here to build this team up.

I agree. As a Cowboys fan, I was both surprised and happy with the move as I don't think much of Gruden. And after this season, I think even less. Not only did he not fix anything, he looks to have made everything that much worse.