Scout's Notebook: Early Thoughts On Left Guard, Gathers' Opportunity; More

[Stash]

It would be great if Chaz Green can win that job.


I think he's a pretty good football player but I just have no faith that he can stay healthy.

For me, that's why I don't want him in the starting lineup.

He gets hurt, as he usually does, and you're forced to shuffle.

I'd rather he be a backup. He probably stay healthier.

 

[Stash]

I have a question?

With Green playing LG, and Bell playing RG, who's getting the 2nd team snaps at RT?

I have yet to hear any reports about that.

 

[sbark]

Huh?

An OL guy can't pick up a blitz if he's engaged with another guy. That's where Emmitt was brilliant, and Zeke is, too. Perhaps the most critical part of any passing game, in fact.

I wonder how Ariz Card's scheme to get Johnson (rb) out in the pattern to catch as many balls as he does and still protect the qb..........I guess it would be a 3 step and out alot of times

to me...what is more wear and tear on Zeke who is already running the rock 24 plus a game.....

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

You flat out said that he was at a disadvantage. You then brought up how chipping was different than sustaining blocks. If you cannot see how your statement casts doubt on his ability to sustain that is on you. As it was I simply asked you a question to clarify and on cue you put yourself right up on the cross.

I never said it was easy. I imagine a person with marginal athletic talent playing small school football would struggle to do it. OTOH, Zeke is the best I have seen at it in a long time. Meanwhile you say you can find street players that can do it for $400k. In the real world Zeke is consistent in power and finish doing it.

You seem to not understand how defenses attack blocking schemes. The goal is to engage blockers and send extra defenders into the gaps. That is the whole thing with with stunts, twists, and overload blitzing. Sure it's easier to block someone right in front of you but it is not easier to block someone when you are already engaged. Sure we have a couple guys who can block two guys at once but you seemed completely obtuse to what I mean about passing things down the line.

Further the free linemen has to move backwards to move laterally across the line which is a much tougher angle and the move robs you of power. The back is much better suited to deal with attacking NFL defenses.

Finally, I have seen plenty of 7 and 8 man protections. Coughlin does it all the time and there are others. We don't see it often here because our OL has been the best in the league the past several years. We never really have to double team anyone and go with hot reads when people send more than 5 rushers.

He is at a disadvantage. Disadvantage doesn't translate to poor blocker. For all your education you always through out there, how is it that you can not make that simple distinction? Chipping is different then sustaining a block. Have you ever played? Have you ever coached the OL or RB position? If you had, then you would know that it's two completely different things.

I never said you can find guys off the street to do that job. You said that because you want to try and frame this discussion but I never said that. That is you making crap up again. I said you pay those guys who do that job 400K. I said you pay guys who are able to really catch in the passing scheme, guys who really are able to make catches and take them to the house, guys who can move the chains in the passing game Millions. That's what I said because that is a true statement. So you see, my statements only cast doubt if you refuse to actually read them and acknowledge what I am actually saying. As to cross discussion, I didn't realize you were a religious person. You know that's not a topic you can discuss on this board right?

I think you just don't get it. It's not about how well you do the job. It's about how best to use the player. Are there going to be times where Zeke will have to pick up the blitz? Absolutely, there will be those times but you don't use that as an excuse as to why he should not be incorporated into the passing game, which is what this discussion is about.

What is it that you think I don't understand about Defenses and how they attack Offenses? I'll tell you what I absolutely know. I know that a blitzing LB, lets say 240 or so (and that's generous because we know they come much bigger then that), with a head of steam is going to exact a certain amount of impact on a guy who is standing and pretty much waiting on the impact, at 225. Even if the player does a great job of stonewalling that guy, it's still going to take something out of you if you do that on a regular basis. What does a team do when they blitz and it gets picked up by the back? They change it up. They don't stop blitzing because even if you pick up the blitz, you've still stopped Zeke. He is no longer a threat to you. What they do is bring more exotic blitz packages and they force you to adjust and eventually, they beat you but more importantly, they have dictated to you, how you are going to use Zeke in passing situations. Doesn't even matter if Zeke never misses a block. They have still been successful in their objective. I mean, how do you not get this?

Your point about blitzing is interesting for two reasons. One, if we are as good at protection schemes as you suggest, then all more reason why you have to ask yourself, why keep Zeke in? Two, it's the QBs job to beat the free man. You do it by getting rid of the ball quickly enough or just rushing for good yardage or getting the ball to the hot in todays NFL. Max Protect is the last step to defeat if you have to rely on it. Losing teams, teams who can not keep the pressure of their QB go to this. Teams who threaten Offensively, teams that score points, they beat you buy running the ball or getting open guys down field. Not by max protecting.

You never answered the question. If keeping backs in are the best option, why don't you see Pro Set, split back kept in to block in the passing game anymore? Why don't you ever see that anymore?

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I wonder how Ariz Card's scheme to get Johnson (rb) out in the pattern to catch as many balls as he does and still protect the qb..........I guess it would be a 3 step and out alot of times

to me...what is more wear and tear on Zeke who is already running the rock 24 plus a game.....

Yep. That's exactly it bark. A back has so many hits in them and then that's it. I would rather spend as many of those hits on plays that get 1st downs or TDs, as I can, rather then having my best Offensive player standing there while a guy who significantly outweighs him gets a head of steam up to punish him.

I mean yeah, he has to sometimes do that but it should not be a reason why you don't use him in the passing game. Heck, he may be a better pass catcher then he is a blocker. I mean, think about that for second. This guy is insanely talented for the position.

Just not smart football to me. I mean, if I'm a DC and I know that I can assign one guy to basically take out Zeke, by using the blitz, I'm sending it every play and sleeping well that night.. JMO

 

[erod]

I wonder how Ariz Card's scheme to get Johnson (rb) out in the pattern to catch as many balls as he does and still protect the qb..........I guess it would be a 3 step and out alot of times

to me...what is more wear and tear on Zeke who is already running the rock 24 plus a game.....

Easy. They don't. Palmer takes an absolute beating there.

Plus, Johnson isn't good at it. Zeke is a stone wall. That extra second or two is crucial for receivers on deeper routes.

 

[erod]

Yep. That's exactly it bark. A back has so many hits in them and then that's it. I would rather spend as many of those hits on plays that get 1st downs or TDs, as I can, rather then having my best Offensive player standing there while a guy who significantly outweighs him gets a head of steam up to punish him.

I mean yeah, he has to sometimes do that but it should not be a reason why you don't use him in the passing game. Heck, he may be a better pass catcher then he is a blocker. I mean, think about that for second. This guy is insanely talented for the position.

Just not smart football to me. I mean, if I'm a DC and I know that I can assign one guy to basically take out Zeke, by using the blitz, I'm sending it every play and sleeping well that night.. JMO

Man......LOL. I don't know what to say.

These aren't big hits. It's pass protection, and Zeke isn't blocking defensive ends. That's what the linemen do. He's taking on linebackers and DBs that are generally trying to juke him. It's not a big deal.

Pass protection is a huge part of the job. Demarco Murray is good at it. So are most of the great backs.

 

[Zimmy Lives]

Man......LOL. I don't know what to say.

These aren't big hits. It's pass protection, and Zeke isn't blocking defensive ends. That's what the linemen do. He's taking on linebackers and DBs that are generally trying to juke him. It's not a big deal.

Pass protection is a huge part of the job. Demarco Murray is good at it. So are most of the great backs.

This.

BB made an astute observation; I do not see the need to call his opinion stupid or dumb. He was merely stating EE is very good at pass protection/blitz pick-up and the Cowboys should make good use of it.

 

[aikemirv]

I actually think Broaddus has no point at all there. I mean, Elliott might be a heck of a blocking back but he's still a back. He still checks in at 225 or so and he is still at a disadvantage in picking up blocks because he has to find the free man and then has to get there and have the proper angle to get a block. Even if you are really good at picking up blocks, as a running back, you are still at a disadvantage because a TE or an OL is going to have size, length and much better angles to reach the block from. IMO, it's down right stupid to try and say that he is too important to the scheme as a blocker to be used in the passing game.

Here is the thing about Football. Either you attack or you defend. Doesn't matter which side of the ball, this is real for Offense or Defense. Aggressors are usually in a more advantageous situation. It's almost always better to force your opponent to adjust, rather then sitting back and waiting for it. If you use Zeke in the manner suggested, you are not attacking. You are adjusting and that's not how he should be used IMO. He is a weapon with a shelf life. You better be smart enough to understand this and use him to full advantage.

Emmitt was great in protection as well but he was used a great deal in the passing game. I agree with you, he really has no point here. He should be in on passing downs and he should pick up blitzes but if no blitz assignment he goes out into the route.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

He is at a disadvantage. Disadvantage doesn't translate to poor blocker. For all your education you always through out there, how is it that you can not make that simple distinction? Chipping is different then sustaining a block. Have you ever played? Have you ever coached the OL or RB position? If you had, then you would know that it's two completely different things.

I never said you can find guys off the street to do that job. You said that because you want to try and frame this discussion but I never said that. That is you making crap up again. I said you pay those guys who do that job 400K. I said you pay guys who are able to really catch in the passing scheme, guys who really are able to make catches and take them to the house, guys who can move the chains in the passing game Millions. That's what I said because that is a true statement. So you see, my statements only cast doubt if you refuse to actually read them and acknowledge what I am actually saying. As to cross discussion, I didn't realize you were a religious person. You know that's not a topic you can discuss on this board right?

I think you just don't get it. It's not about how well you do the job. It's about how best to use the player. Are there going to be times where Zeke will have to pick up the blitz? Absolutely, there will be those times but you don't use that as an excuse as to why he should not be incorporated into the passing game, which is what this discussion is about.

What is it that you think I don't understand about Defenses and how they attack Offenses? I'll tell you what I absolutely know. I know that a blitzing LB, lets say 240 or so (and that's generous because we know they come much bigger then that), with a head of steam is going to exact a certain amount of impact on a guy who is standing and pretty much waiting on the impact, at 225. Even if the player does a great job of stonewalling that guy, it's still going to take something out of you if you do that on a regular basis. What does a team do when they blitz and it gets picked up by the back? They change it up. They don't stop blitzing because even if you pick up the blitz, you've still stopped Zeke. He is no longer a threat to you. What they do is bring more exotic blitz packages and they force you to adjust and eventually, they beat you but more importantly, they have dictated to you, how you are going to use Zeke in passing situations. Doesn't even matter if Zeke never misses a block. They have still been successful in their objective. I mean, how do you not get this?

Your point about blitzing is interesting for two reasons. One, if we are as good at protection schemes as you suggest, then all more reason why you have to ask yourself, why keep Zeke in? Two, it's the QBs job to beat the free man. You do it by getting rid of the ball quickly enough or just rushing for good yardage or getting the ball to the hot in todays NFL. Max Protect is the last step to defeat if you have to rely on it. Losing teams, teams who can not keep the pressure of their QB go to this. Teams who threaten Offensively, teams that score points, they beat you buy running the ball or getting open guys down field. Not by max protecting.

You never answered the question. If keeping backs in are the best option, why don't you see Pro Set, split back kept in to block in the passing game anymore? Why don't you ever see that anymore?

All that and you never once addressed my point about how DCs engage blockers and attack gaps beyond to restate my words and talk about something else. Maybe you played 40 years ago but your capacity to speak an informed opinion is limited.

At the end of the day a TE is not more suited to pass protection than a back behind the line when dealing with overloads on the weak side.

You said no one max protected and Coughlin was using max protection against D Ware and co regularly on his way to championships. Your narrative does not bear out to reality.

Because of the nature of spreading defenses with receivers on the flanks. A TE or H-back flanked outside is a better passing threat than a back lined up 7 yards behind the OL. You can use one back to take out the extra middle rusher and hot reads for the guys outside.

 

[Fletch]

I think Broaddus has a valid point about Zeke in pass protection but he needs the ball in his hands in most situations as play makers do.

I get the argument by Broaddus, but to pigeon-hole a transcendent player is moronic. Careful what ya wish for Bryan!

Zeke can still be a help along the trenches, but don't minimize the talent. Open it up! Were we not all witnesses to what he did in Pittsburgh on an 80-something yard screen pass that got us immediately back in the game?

Yeah, Zeke needs the ball in the running game and passing game. Kid can do it all!

 

[TwoDeep3]

• There’s been a lot of talk during the offseason about getting Ezekiel Elliott more involved in the passing game as a receiver. As much as I like that idea, I could also see where the coaches want to find some balance there and I will explain why. Watching Elliott sort blitzes correctly and step up to execute his assignment made me stop and reflect how important he is to scheme in that area of the passing game. To quote Col. Nathan Jessup in the movie “A Few Good Men” -- "You want me on that wall. You need me on that wall". This is the way I feel about Elliott. You need him in pass protection because he is just as much of a weapon in that area as he is as a receiver. We all have to be careful what we wish for.

http://www.dallascowboys.com/news/2...-guard-gathers-opportunity-more?sf100724736=1

And yet when teams scout them, and Zeke is not a passing weapon but a 25 million dollar 6th lineman, the opposing team will never suspect he will take it to the house.

Post 2016 Pittsburgh game video here - - the longest pass from scrimmage, Dak to Zeke to endzone.

I'm in favor of him blocking and protecting Dak, but this guy has so much playmaker talent, how can you not take that car for a healthy drive?

Do not leave meat on the bone, money on the table, points on the field.

 

[diefree666]

the boys should use Zeke exactly the same way as they used Emmitt.

 

[NEODOG]

I have a question?

With Green playing LG, and Bell playing RG, who's getting the 2nd team snaps at RT?

I have yet to hear any reports about that.

Being open.... I foresee Green going to RT & Cooper to LG, if Collins gets injured in a pinch.

 

[diefree666]

Seeing that Green's injury history has been with him since his first year of college I do not see the Boys wanting him starting anywhere.

 

[BotchedLobotomy]

Green has made to thru a day of training camp and he's still healthy.....so he has that going for him.

 

[NEODOG]

Seeing that Green's injury history has been with him since his first year of college I do not see the Boys wanting him starting anywhere.

You mean like Cooper? Cause he can't stay on the field either.... Not to mention this is his 3rd team

Zzziiiinnnnggggg.... Next argument

 

[diefree666]

You mean like Cooper? Cause he can't stay on the field either.... Not to mention this is his 3rd team

Zzziiiinnnnggggg.... Next argument

and once again you fail. What was coopers injury history in college like? Really should not lead with your chin if you don't want to get knocked out.

 

[CT Dal Fan]

I have a question?

With Green playing LG, and Bell playing RG, who's getting the 2nd team snaps at RT?

I have yet to hear any reports about that.

Emmett Cleary is probably the 2nd team RT now. The Cowboys probably move Bell outside for some reps, too. They like to try the backup o-linemen at different spots to evaluate them for flexibility.

 

[NEODOG]

and once again you fail. What was coopers injury history in college like? Really should not lead with your chin if you don't want to get knocked out.

Oh, now we talkin bout college.....like Demarco Murray at OU?

Whats in your head?