Scout's Notebook: Early Thoughts On Left Guard, Gathers' Opportunity; More

[ABQCOWBOY]

I'm just saying how important that trait is at the position some guys can't do it, Zeke can and it is an asset that bodes well for the Cowboys.

I understand and do not disagree. That's part of the game but the idea that he is too important in the blocking scheme and that this, somehow, is why he should not be used in the passing game, is nonsensical. The point you make is even more relevant if you context it into a discussion on how well he catches the ball, according to reports. If what we hear is true, he can run routes and catch the ball like a WR does. We didn't see a lot of that last year because he was not really used to exploit defenses in that way. But think about that, how rear is it to have that kind of ability coming out of the backfield? You can't just use the excuse that "he's too good a blocker". You can bring a guy in to do that. You can't bring a RB in to catch out of the backfield and actually threaten Safeties etc. That's really hard to find in a RB.

 

[Doomsday101]

I understand and do not disagree. That's part of the game but the idea that he is too important in the blocking scheme and that this, somehow, is why he should not be used in the passing game, is nonsensical. The point you make is even more relevant if you context it into a discussion on how well he catches the ball, according to reports. If what we hear is true, he can run routes and catch the ball like a WR does. We didn't see a lot of that last year because he was not really used to exploit defenses in that way. But think about that, how rear is it to have that kind of ability coming out of the backfield? You can't just use the excuse that "he's too good a blocker". You can bring a guy in to do that. You can't bring a RB in to catch out of the backfield and actually threaten Safeties etc. That's really hard to find in a RB.

I think he should be used in both capacity coming out of the back field and in terms of staying in and blocking. Keep defense off balance to me remains the key. Defenders have to be aware that he could chip the blitzer and swing outside for a dump off or middle screen. I'm not trying to limit Zeke at all but I have seen him and backs like him hold their own vs bigger defenders

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I think he should be used in both capacity coming out of the back field and in terms of staying in and blocking. Keep defense off balance to me remains the key. Defenders have to be aware that he could chip the blitzer and swing outside for a dump off or middle screen. I'm not trying to limit Zeke at all but I have seen him and backs like him hold their own vs bigger defenders

This is the problem with this entire thread. The idea that Zeke should not be used to block is just as ridiculous as the idea that he should only be used to block. The problem is not that Zeke can not block. I seem to be having to repeat this over and over again. Why, I don't know. I agree, Zeke is as good a blocking back, even at a young age, as there is in the league. However, it makes no sense to limit him, simply because he is good at it.

To me, that's like saying "Mike Trout is such a great hitter, but he bunts so well that we don't want to allow him to hit away."

On the face of that statement, it would be crazy. That is the problem. It's not that Zeke can't block or is not good at it. It's that it's stupid to use that as an excuse or even support that line of reasoning, as to why you wouldn't use him as a pass catcher or make him a bigger part of the passing game.

 

[Doomsday101]

This is the problem with this entire thread. The idea that Zeke should not be used to block is just as ridiculous as the idea that he should only be used to block. The problem is not that Zeke can not block. I seem to be having to repeat this over and over again. Why, I don't know. I agree, Zeke is as good a blocking back, even at a young age, as there is in the league. However, it makes no sense to limit him, simply because he is good at it.

To me, that's like saying "Mike Trout is such a great hitter, but he bunts so well that we don't want to allow him to hit away."

On the fact of that statement, it would be crazy. That is the problem. It's not that Zeke can't block or is not good at it. It's that it's stupid to use that as an excuse or even support that line of reasoning, as to why you wouldn't use him as a pass catcher or make him a bigger part of the passing game.

I don't disagree. I would not limit Zeke in terms of the passing game to be exclusively a blocker. Often times what Dak is seeing in terms of what the defense is doing will determine what Zeke role may be on any given pass play. I see Zeke as an all around RB who can run, catch and block and I want to use all those talents not limit him to any one thing.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I don't disagree. I would not limit Zeke in terms of the passing game to be exclusively a blocker. Often times what Dak is seeing in terms of what the defense is doing will determine what Zeke role may be on any given pass play. I see Zeke as an all around RB who can run, catch and block and I want to use all those talents not limit him to any one thing.

Exactly!

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Well this is interesting.
Carson Palmer was sacked 40 times last year.
Dak was sacked 25.

I think if you went back and looked Palmer too more big shots when getting sacked than Dak.

So somewhere you need to make sure your Number 1 player get's protected and not to making sure the RB gets a few more catches.

I think a few things factor into this thing. One, Cards don't have many weapons on Offense. If you keep him in, you take away a lot of your ability to sustain Offense. Two, Palmer is entering his 14th season in the league and he doesn't really move all that well anymore. Three, the Cards have nowhere close to the OL we do (I know everybody knows this).

I don't think you can really use sacks as a comparison here because Dak has way too many advantages in this area. He's young and mobile. Palmer is neither of those things anymore. Dak has the best OL in the league. Palmer does not. Dak's Offense is loaded. Palmer has two guys, and one is also entering his 14th season, in Fitz. The problem with Palmer is that, while he still can throw the ball and read defenses, he's to stationary and he has too few offensive threats to really get rid of the ball and avoid the rush, while still move the ball against good defenses.

I mean, the stats don't lie but the comparison is flawed because the Cowboys Offense has a QB that can move around, scramble and actually account for the free man. Az has a fence post and a very limited personnel package on Offense.

 

[robbieruff]

I think Broaddus has a valid point about Zeke in pass protection but he needs the ball in his hands in most situations as play makers do.

Exactly...Emmitt was an all-time great blocker in blitz pick-up, in my view, but that didn't impede him from catching 50-60 balls during his most dominant years. Zeke will be a beast catching the ball in space (see Pittsburg game highlights) and we need to double down in that area.

 

[Longboysfan]

I think a few things factor into this thing. One, Cards don't have many weapons on Offense. If you keep him in, you take away a lot of your ability to sustain Offense. Two, Palmer is entering his 14th season in the league and he doesn't really move all that well anymore. Three, the Cards have nowhere close to the OL we do (I know everybody knows this).

I don't think you can really use sacks as a comparison here because Dak has way too many advantages in this area. He's young and mobile. Palmer is neither of those things anymore. Dak has the best OL in the league. Palmer does not. Dak's Offense is loaded. Palmer has two guys, and one is also entering his 14th season, in Fitz. The problem with Palmer is that, while he still can throw the ball and read defenses, he's to stationary and he has too few offensive threats to really get rid of the ball and avoid the rush, while still move the ball against good defenses.

I mean, the stats don't lie but the comparison is flawed because the Cowboys Offense has a QB that can move around, scramble and actually account for the free man. Az has a fence post and a very limited personnel package on Offense.

What I tried to get at is the Cowboys held him in to block more times.

The Cards did not seem to do that with Palmer. And Yes. Fence post.
But you still need to protect that fence post.

 

[JoeyBoy718]

Seems strange that LCollins is starting out at RT and CGreen is at LG

I think they both can succeed at their new positions but staying put seemed like the easier path

Not like either of them had done much at their original positions. In fact, Green and Cooper haven't done anything. That's where they were projected to be best fits coming out of college. I'm fine with it. I'd rather have the better player at RT where he doesn't have two All Pros surrounding him.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

What I tried to get at is the Cowboys held him in to block more times.

The Cards did not seem to do that with Palmer. And Yes. Fence post.
But you still need to protect that fence post.

I understand, but the problem with the Cards is different. You can't use there situation to justify the position we have with Zeke and Dak. Dak can make you pay for the blitz with his arm or his feet. That's a very different situation then what the Cards have with Palmer. I am not saying that this is what you are doing because I have not really been involved with your conversation, other then to respond to the one post. What I am saying is that the Cards, at this point, have an Offense that will work against the bottom two thirds of the NFL but against the top third or teams with quality defenses, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they Keep Johnson in, then they are pretty much limited to Fitz and that's it. If they send him out, then they struggle with protection. There idea is to tread water until they can secure a better, younger option at QB.

With us, we have a Strong, Smart young QB who can run around you, throw over you or run through you. We have mutliple weapons on Offense and we have the best OL in the business. We can dictate to Defense, pretty successfully, if we are smart. Absolutely no reason we should allow other teams to dictate to us.

 

[dallasdave]

I understand, but the problem with the Cards is different. You can't use there situation to justify the position we have with Zeke and Dak. Dak can make you pay for the blitz with his arm or his feet. That's a very different situation then what the Cards have with Palmer. I am not saying that this is what you are doing because I have not really been involved with your conversation, other then to respond to the one post. What I am saying is that the Cards, at this point, have an Offense that will work against the bottom two thirds of the NFL but against the top third or teams with quality defenses, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they Keep Johnson in, then they are pretty much limited to Fitz and that's it. If they send him out, then they struggle with protection. There idea is to tread water until they can secure a better, younger option at QB.

With us, we have a Strong, Smart young QB who can run around you, throw over you or run through you. We have mutliple weapons on Offense and we have the best OL in the business. We can dictate to Defense, pretty successfully, if we are smart. Absolutely no reason we should allow other teams to dictate to us.

Well said indeed SIR

 

[dallasdave]

OK, stop the bus. Show where I ever said that Zeke's blocking is problematic. This is what you always do. You try and change the discussion. The problem is not that Zeke can not block. The problem is that it's stupid to say that you should not use him in passing situations because his blocking is to vital to the scheme. That's utterly stupid.

As to your statement about backs picking up blocks, it's all wrong. You think that because a back can move to any point of attack, it's easier but it's not. First of all, you don't know if there is one free guy or two or a blitz or a zone blitz. It's always easier to assign a block and use multiple bigger stronger players to provide protection. The angles are much better because you are closer and you have the ability to get your hands on the rusher before he gets a head of steam. Everything you say there is wrong. Why don't you ever see Pro Set max protection anymore if backs are so much more effective at picking up blocks? Because it's not more effective but more then that, it's a bad idea to take your most effective Offensive weapons out of the game by using them to block.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

I actually think Broaddus has no point at all there. I mean, Elliott might be a heck of a blocking back but he's still a back. He still checks in at 225 or so and he is still at a disadvantage in picking up blocks because he has to find the free man and then has to get there and have the proper angle to get a block. Even if you are really good at picking up blocks, as a running back, you are still at a disadvantage because a TE or an OL is going to have size, length and much better angles to reach the block from. IMO, it's down right stupid to try and say that he is too important to the scheme as a blocker to be used in the passing game.

Here is the thing about Football. Either you attack or you defend. Doesn't matter which side of the ball, this is real for Offense or Defense. Aggressors are usually in a more advantageous situation. It's almost always better to force your opponent to adjust, rather then sitting back and waiting for it. If you use Zeke in the manner suggested, you are not attacking. You are adjusting and that's not how he should be used IMO. He is a weapon with a shelf life. You better be smart enough to understand this and use him to full advantage.

Zeke will get his opportunities as a receiver but ignoring that part of what makes a workhorse back a complete back who is worthy of a top 4 picks is his ability to block or catch on 3rd down. If Zeke could not block well his value is significantly diminished and you not only lower the ceiling of your offense but you raise the risk of injury on your quarterback.

Bryan merely pointed out that there is nuance to this conversation.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

I don't agree. I played the position. You are not going to have the advantage because, you are always going to be the shortest guy and it is always going to be hard to locate where the free guy comes from.

The fact that a it's hard is what makes it a great skill for someone to have.

Thank you for agreeing.

 

[Longboysfan]

I understand, but the problem with the Cards is different. You can't use there situation to justify the position we have with Zeke and Dak. Dak can make you pay for the blitz with his arm or his feet. That's a very different situation then what the Cards have with Palmer. I am not saying that this is what you are doing because I have not really been involved with your conversation, other then to respond to the one post. What I am saying is that the Cards, at this point, have an Offense that will work against the bottom two thirds of the NFL but against the top third or teams with quality defenses, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they Keep Johnson in, then they are pretty much limited to Fitz and that's it. If they send him out, then they struggle with protection. There idea is to tread water until they can secure a better, younger option at QB.

With us, we have a Strong, Smart young QB who can run around you, throw over you or run through you. We have mutliple weapons on Offense and we have the best OL in the business. We can dictate to Defense, pretty successfully, if we are smart. Absolutely no reason we should allow other teams to dictate to us.

Agreed.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

The fact that a it's hard is what makes it a great skill for someone to have.

Thank you for agreeing.

I am assuming that you are attempting to misrepresent my position here. While I agree that it is a very tough thing to do well, I don't believe that it's the most important job Zeke can do for the team.

Thank you for twisting my words instead of simply engaging in honest discussion. I really appreciate that.

If I am reading this wrong and somehow have gotten the wrong impression, please accept my apology.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Zeke will get his opportunities as a receiver but ignoring that part of what makes a workhorse back a complete back who is worthy of a top 4 picks is his ability to block or catch on 3rd down. If Zeke could not block well his value is significantly diminished and you not only lower the ceiling of your offense but you raise the risk of injury on your quarterback.

Bryan merely pointed out that there is nuance to this conversation.

I agree with just about all of this post. I can't say I agree with your last sentence. It would be easy enough to say exactly what you stated here but I didn't get that from BB.

 

[sideon]

I actually think Broaddus has no point at all there. I mean, Elliott might be a heck of a blocking back but he's still a back. He still checks in at 225 or so and he is still at a disadvantage in picking up blocks because he has to find the free man and then has to get there and have the proper angle to get a block. Even if you are really good at picking up blocks, as a running back, you are still at a disadvantage because a TE or an OL is going to have size, length and much better angles to reach the block from. IMO, it's down right stupid to try and say that he is too important to the scheme as a blocker to be used in the passing game.

Here is the thing about Football. Either you attack or you defend. Doesn't matter which side of the ball, this is real for Offense or Defense. Aggressors are usually in a more advantageous situation. It's almost always better to force your opponent to adjust, rather then sitting back and waiting for it. If you use Zeke in the manner suggested, you are not attacking. You are adjusting and that's not how he should be used IMO. He is a weapon with a shelf life. You better be smart enough to understand this and use him to full advantage.

Do you not understand how important it is to have a RB that can block? Zeke is great at it and it's just another advantage the Cowboys have. He's 225 and he has stonewalled a few LBs who've come in on blitzes.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Do you not understand how important it is to have a RB that can block? Zeke is great at it and it's just another advantage the Cowboys have. He's 225 and he has stonewalled a few LBs who've come in on blitzes.

Read the thread.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

I am assuming that you are attempting to misrepresent my position here. While I agree that it is a very tough thing to do well, I don't believe that it's the most important job Zeke can do for the team.

Thank you for twisting my words instead of simply engaging in honest discussion. I really appreciate that.

If I am reading this wrong and somehow have gotten the wrong impression, please accept my apology.

This is a logical fallacy. Nobody has asserted that pass blocking is Zeke's most valuable skill or "most important job" for this team. Certainly not me.

Is this where and when I say... Thank you for twisting my words instead of engaging in honest debate?

Asking for a friend.