Some Franchise QB Research

[gbrittain]

Green Bay vs Kansas City
Winner Bart Starr (17th Round, HOF) vs Len Dawson (#5 Pick Overall, HOF)

Green Bay vs Oakland
Winner Bart Starr (17th Round, HOF) vs Daryle Lamonica (Late Round Choice)

NY Jets vs Baltimore
Winner Joe Namath (#1 Pick Overall, HOF) vs Johnny Unitas (9th Round, HOF)

Kansas City vs Minnesota
Winner Len Dawson (#5 Pick Overall, HOF) vs Joe Kapp (12th Round)

Baltimore vs Dallas
Winner Johnny Unitas (9th Round, HOF) vs Craig Morton (#5 Pick Overall)

Dallas vs Miami
Winner Roger Staubach (HOF) vs Bob Griese (#4 Pick Overall, HOF)

Miami vs Washington
Winner Brian Griese (#4 Pick Overall, HOF) vs Billy Kilmer (#11 Pick Overall)

Miami vs Minnesota
Winner Bob Griese (#4 Pick Overall, HOF) vs Fran Tarkenton (3rd Round, HOF)

Pittsburgh vs Minnesota
Winner Terry Bradshaw (#1 Pick Overall, HOF) vs Fran Tarkenton (3rd Round, HOF)

Pittsburgh vs Dallas
Winner Terry Bradshaw (#1 Pick Overall, HOF) vs Roger Staubach (HOF)

Oakland vs Minnesota
Winner Kenny Stabler (2nd Round Pick) vs Fran Tarkenton (3rd Round, HOF)

Dallas vs Denver
Winner Roger Staubach (HOF) vs Craig Morton (#5 Pick Overall)

Pittsburgh vs Dallas
Winner Terry Bradshaw (#1 Pick Overall, HOF) vs Roger Staubach (HOF)

Pittsburgh vs Los Angeles Rams
Winner Terry Bradshaw (#1 Pick Overall, HOF) vs Vince Feragamo (Late Round)

Oakland vs Philadelphia
Winner Jim Plunkett (#1 Pick Overall) vs Ron Jaworski (2nd Round Pick)


San Francisco vs Cincinnati
Winner Joe Montana (3rd Round, HOF) vs Ken Anderson (3rd Round Pick)

Washington vs Miami
Winner Joe Theisman (4th Round Pick) vs David Woodley (8th Round Pick)

LA Raiders vs Washington
Winner Jim Plunkett (#1 Pick Overall) vs Joe Theisman (4th Round Pick)

San Francisco vs Miami
Winner Joe Montana (3rd Round, HOF) vs Dan Marino (#27 Pick Overall, HOF)

Chicago vs New England
Winner Jim McMahon (#5 Pick Overall) vs Steve Grogan (5th Round Pick)

NY Giants vs Denver
Winner Phil Simms (#7 Overall Pick) vs John Elway (#1 Pick Overall, HOF)

Washington vs Denver
Winner Doug Williams (#17 Overall Pick) vs John Elway (#1 Pick Overall, HOF)

San Francisco vs Cincinnati
Winner Joe Montana (3rd Round, HOF) vs Boomer Esiason (2nd Round Pick)

San Francisco vs Denver
Winner Joe Montana (3rd Round, HOF) vs John Elway (#1 Pick Overall, HOF)

New York Giants vs Buffalo
Winner Jeff Hostetler (3rd Round) vs Jim Kelly (#14 Overall Pick, HOF)

Washington vs Buffalo
Winner Mark Rypien (6th Round) vs Jim Kelly (#14 Overall Pick, HOF)

Dallas vs Buffalo
Winner Troy Aikman (#1 Overall Pick, HOF) vs Jim Kelly (#14 Overall Pick, HOF)

Dallas vs Buffalo
Winner Troy Aikman (#1 Overall Pick, HOF) vs Jim Kelly (#14 Overall Pick, HOF)

San Francisco vs San Diego
Winner Steve Young (#1 Overall USFL, HOF) vs Stan Humphries (6th Round)

Dallas vs Pittsburgh
Winner Troy Aikman (#1 Overall Pick, HOF) vs Neil O’Donnell (3rd Round)


Green Bay vs New England
Winner Brett Favre (2nd Round, HOF) vs Drew Bledsoe (#1 Pick Overall)

Denver vs Green Bay
Winner John Elway (#1 Pick Overall, HOF) vs Brett Favre (2nd Round Pick, HOF)

Denver vs Atlanta
Winner John Elway (#1 Pick Overall, HOF) vs Chris Chandler (3rd Round)

St Louis vs Tennessee
Winner Kurt Warner (Not Drafted) vs Steve McNair (#3 Pick Overall, HOF?)

Baltimore vs New York Giants
Winner Trent Dilfer (#6 Overall Pick) vs Kerry Collins (#5 Overall Pick)

New England vs St. Louis
Winner Tom Brady (6th Round Pick, HOF) vs Kurt Warner (Not Drafted)

Tampa Bay vs Oakland
Winner Brad Johnson (9th Round) vs Rich Gannon (4th Round Pick)

New England vs Carolina
Winner Tom Brady (6th Round, HOF) vs Jake Delhomme (Not Drafted)

New England vs Philadelphia
Winner Tom Brady (6th Round, HOF) vs Donovan McNabb (#2 Overall Pick)


A First Round QB has been represented in 31 of the 39 Superbowls

A HOF or First Round QB has been represented in 37 of the 39 Superbowls.

The lesser pedigree QB has won 8 times out of the 39 Superbowls. This does not include HOF vs HOF QB Superbowls. This means that the winning QB beat a HOF QB or that the winning QB was drafted later than the losing QB. The examples are:

Winner Kenny Stabler (2nd Round Pick) vs Fran Tarkenton (3rd Round, HOF)
Winner Phil Simms (#7 Overall Pick) vs John Elway (#1 Pick Overall, HOF)
Winner Doug Williams (#17 Overall Pick) vs John Elway (#1 Pick Overall, HOF)
Winner Jeff Hostetler (3rd Round) vs Jim Kelly (#14 Overall Pick, HOF)
Winner Mark Rypien (6th Round) vs Jim Kelly (#14 Overall Pick, HOF)
Winner Kurt Warner (Not Drafted) vs Steve McNair (#3 Pick Overall, HOF?)
Winner Trent Dilfer (#6 Overall Pick) vs Kerry Collins (#5 Overall Pick)
Winner Brad Johnson (9th Round) vs Rich Gannon (4th Round Pick)

A QB who was not a 1st Round choice or HOF QB has won the Superbowl a total of 5 out of 39 times.

Only 1 non drafted QB has ever won a Superbowl (Kurt Warner)

Ony 2 non drafted QB have ever played in a Superbowl (Kurt Warner and Jake Delhomme)

There have been only 2 out of 39 Superbowls in which both QBs in the Superbowl were not either a high draft pick or a HOFer. The examples are:

Winner Joe Theisman (4th Round Pick) vs David Woodley (8th Round Pick)
Winner Brad Johnson (9th Round) vs Rich Gannon (4th Round Pick)

7 of the last 8 #1 overall picks have been QBs. Now tell me that QB is not the single most important position on the field and that having a franchise QB does not matter. All evidence suggest otherwise.

 

[joseephuss]

It is very important to have a top notch QB in order for a team to compete year in and year out and also win a Superbowl or two. I know I want one for Dallas. It is still a team game and all those teams that have played in the Superbowl have been good teams. Good lines on both sides of the ball and strong defenses are all common to those teams that have won a Superbowl. The teams that have won more than 1 SB have the all around team and have been lucky to have the best QBs as well.

This era of parity and the salary cap make it harder to do and some think it has to be either/or nowadays. Either you have a top QB with an average team or an average QB with a great team. I still think both can be done, it just becomes more difficult. The Pats have done it, so it can be done.

 

[trickblue]

Perhaps you mean BOB Griese...

 

[gbrittain]

Perhaps you mean BOB Griese...

Yes, indeed I do. Thanks.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Green Bay vs Kansas City
Winner Bart Starr (17th Round, HOF) vs Len Dawson (#5 Pick Overall, HOF)

Green Bay vs Oakland
Winner Bart Starr (17th Round, HOF) vs Daryle Lamonica (Late Round Choice)

NY Jets vs Baltimore
Winner Joe Namath (#1 Pick Overall, HOF) vs Johnny Unitas (9th Round, HOF)

Kansas City vs Minnesota
Winner Len Dawson (#5 Pick Overall, HOF) vs Joe Kapp (12th Round)

Baltimore vs Dallas
Winner Johnny Unitas (9th Round, HOF) vs Craig Morton (#5 Pick Overall)

Dallas vs Miami
Winner Roger Staubach (HOF) vs Brian Griese (#4 Pick Overall, HOF)

Miami vs Washington
Winner Brian Griese (#4 Pick Overall, HOF) vs Billy Kilmer (#11 Pick Overall)

Miami vs Minnesota
Winner Brian Griese (#4 Pick Overall, HOF) vs Fran Tarkenton (3rd Round, HOF)

Pittsburgh vs Minnesota
Winner Terry Bradshaw (#1 Pick Overall, HOF) vs Fran Tarkenton (3rd Round, HOF)

Pittsburgh vs Dallas
Winner Terry Bradshaw (#1 Pick Overall, HOF) vs Roger Staubach (HOF)

Oakland vs Minnesota
Winner Kenny Stabler (2nd Round Pick) vs Fran Tarkenton (3rd Round, HOF)

Dallas vs Denver
Winner Roger Staubach (HOF) vs Craig Morton (#5 Pick Overall)

Pittsburgh vs Dallas
Winner Terry Bradshaw (#1 Pick Overall, HOF) vs Roger Staubach (HOF)

Pittsburgh vs Los Angeles Rams
Winner Terry Bradshaw (#1 Pick Overall, HOF) vs Vince Feragamo (Late Round)

Oakland vs Philadelphia
Winner Jim Plunkett (#1 Pick Overall) vs Ron Jaworski (2nd Round Pick)


San Francisco vs Cincinnati
Winner Joe Montana (3rd Round, HOF) vs Ken Anderson (3rd Round Pick)

Washington vs Miami
Winner Joe Theisman (4th Round Pick) vs David Woodley (8th Round Pick)

LA Raiders vs Washington
Winner Jim Plunkett (#1 Pick Overall) vs Joe Theisman (4th Round Pick)

San Francisco vs Miami
Winner Joe Montana (3rd Round, HOF) vs Dan Marino (#27 Pick Overall, HOF)

Chicago vs New England
Winner Jim McMahon (#5 Pick Overall) vs Steve Grogan (5th Round Pick)

NY Giants vs Denver
Winner Phil Simms (#7 Overall Pick) vs John Elway (#1 Pick Overall, HOF)

Washington vs Denver
Winner Doug Williams (#17 Overall Pick) vs John Elway (#1 Pick Overall, HOF)

San Francisco vs Cincinnati
Winner Joe Montana (3rd Round, HOF) vs Boomer Esiason (2nd Round Pick)

San Francisco vs Denver
Winner Joe Montana (3rd Round, HOF) vs John Elway (#1 Pick Overall, HOF)

New York Giants vs Buffalo
Winner Jeff Hostetler (3rd Round) vs Jim Kelly (#14 Overall Pick, HOF)

Washington vs Buffalo
Winner Mark Rypien (6th Round) vs Jim Kelly (#14 Overall Pick, HOF)

Dallas vs Buffalo
Winner Troy Aikman (#1 Overall Pick, HOF) vs Jim Kelly (#14 Overall Pick, HOF)

Dallas vs Buffalo
Winner Troy Aikman (#1 Overall Pick, HOF) vs Jim Kelly (#14 Overall Pick, HOF)

San Francisco vs San Diego
Winner Steve Young (#1 Overall USFL, HOF) vs Stan Humphries (6th Round)

Dallas vs Pittsburgh
Winner Troy Aikman (#1 Overall Pick, HOF) vs Neil O’Donnell (3rd Round)


Green Bay vs New England
Winner Brett Favre (2nd Round, HOF) vs Drew Bledsoe (#1 Pick Overall)

Denver vs Green Bay
Winner John Elway (#1 Pick Overall, HOF) vs Brett Favre (2nd Round Pick, HOF)

Denver vs Atlanta
Winner John Elway (#1 Pick Overall, HOF) vs Chris Chandler (3rd Round)

St Louis vs Tennessee
Winner Kurt Warner (Not Drafted) vs Steve McNair (#3 Pick Overall, HOF?)

Baltimore vs New York Giants
Winner Trent Dilfer (#6 Overall Pick) vs Kerry Collins (#5 Overall Pick)

New England vs St. Louis
Winner Tom Brady (6th Round Pick, HOF) vs Kurt Warner (Not Drafted)

Tampa Bay vs Oakland
Winner Brad Johnson (9th Round) vs Rich Gannon (4th Round Pick)

New England vs Carolina
Winner Tom Brady (6th Round, HOF) vs Jake Delhomme (Not Drafted)

New England vs Philadelphia
Winner Tom Brady (6th Round, HOF) vs Donovan McNabb (#2 Overall Pick)


A First Round QB has been represented in 31 of the 39 Superbowls

A HOF or First Round QB has been represented in 37 of the 39 Superbowls.

The lesser pedigree QB has won 8 times out of the 39 Superbowls. This does not include HOF vs HOF QB Superbowls. This means that the winning QB beat a HOF QB or that the winning QB was drafted later than the losing QB. The examples are:

Winner Kenny Stabler (2nd Round Pick) vs Fran Tarkenton (3rd Round, HOF)
Winner Phil Simms (#7 Overall Pick) vs John Elway (#1 Pick Overall, HOF)
Winner Doug Williams (#17 Overall Pick) vs John Elway (#1 Pick Overall, HOF)
Winner Jeff Hostetler (3rd Round) vs Jim Kelly (#14 Overall Pick, HOF)
Winner Mark Rypien (6th Round) vs Jim Kelly (#14 Overall Pick, HOF)
Winner Kurt Warner (Not Drafted) vs Steve McNair (#3 Pick Overall, HOF?)
Winner Trent Dilfer (#6 Overall Pick) vs Kerry Collins (#5 Overall Pick)
Winner Brad Johnson (9th Round) vs Rich Gannon (4th Round Pick)

A QB who was not a 1st Round choice or HOF QB has won the Superbowl a total of 5 out of 39 times.

Only 1 non drafted QB has ever won a Superbowl (Kurt Warner)

Ony 2 non drafted QB have ever played in a Superbowl (Kurt Warner and Jake Delhomme)

There have been only 2 out of 39 Superbowls in which both QBs in the Superbowl were not either a high draft pick or a HOFer. The examples are:

Winner Joe Theisman (4th Round Pick) vs David Woodley (8th Round Pick)
Winner Brad Johnson (9th Round) vs Rich Gannon (4th Round Pick)

7 of the last 8 #1 overall picks have been QBs. Now tell me that QB is not the single most important position on the field and that having a franchise QB does not matter. All evidence suggest otherwise.

is it solely the QB that won those Super Bowls? hardly

I'm not going against the grain, you need a franchise QB, but the 1st round isn't the only place to get one

btw, look who's not on your list...Peyton Manning, #1 overall choice and damn, good QB

 

[gbrittain]

is it solely the QB that won those Super Bowls? hardly

I'm not going against the grain, you need a franchise QB, but the 1st round isn't the only place to get one

btw, look who's not on your list...Peyton Manning, #1 overall choice and damn, good QB

Dont be naive. For every #1 pick overall that does not make it to a Superbowl, how many undrafted Free Agents make it?

This not a law, but look at the evidence and tell me about the majority.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

I'm being naive? dude, you're acting like all you need to do is draft a 1st round QB, and you're a lock to go to the SUper Bowl

there are as much 1st round QBs who bust, just as much as UDFA and late-round QBs busting, or not excelling, and just look as far as this year, looks pretty even

 

[Hostile]

I'm being naive? dude, you're acting like all you need to do is draft a 1st round QB, and you're a lock to go to the SUper Bowl

there are as much 1st round QBs who bust, just as much as UDFA and late-round QBs busting, or not excelling, and just look as far as this year, looks pretty even

That isn't what he's saying at all.

 

[jterrell]

The problem with this type of research is the way it rolls downhill.

How many 1st round QBs have been drafted since SB 1?

You use a rather free designation of 1st round OR HOF and then grant Tom Brady early admittance to build your numbers by 3.

A real question is how many 1st round QBs took the team that drafted them to the Super Bowl in the last 10 seasons?

The answer is 4. Aikman. BLEDSOE. McNair. McNabb.


Your title here is FRANCHISE QB and Gannon, Dilfer, Collins, Delhomme, Warner, Brad Johnson, Rypien, Doug Williams and many others are NOT franchise QBs.

Hypothetically if Bledsoe wins a Super Bowl here the next two seasons does he make the Hall of fame? He will have been a 1st round pick and won 4 Conference championship games? Would he then be considered a franchise QB?

Change it and make it one SB. What about then?

 

[Bob Sacamano]

That isn't what he's saying at all.

it's not? then how come he's giving me a list of SUper Bowl winners? or using the stats to show me that only 5 out of 39 Super Bowl winning QBs were not 1st round picks?

 

[Hostile]

The problem with this type of research is the way it rolls downhill.

How many 1st round QBs have been drafted since SB 1?

You use a rather free designation of 1st round OR HOF and then grant Tom Brady early admittance to build your numbers by 3.

A real question is how many 1st round QBs took the team that drafted them to the Super Bowl in the last 10 seasons?

The answer is 4. Aikman. BLEDSOE. McNair. McNabb.


Your title here is FRANCHISE QB and Gannon, Dilfer, Collins, Delhomme, Warner, Brad Johnson, Rypien, Doug Williams and many others are NOT franchise QBs.

Hypothetically if Bledsoe wins a Super Bowl here the next two seasons does he make the Hall of fame? He will have been a 1st round pick and won 4 Conference championship games? Would he then be considered a franchise QB?

Change it and make it one SB. What about then?

Time to add Brady to the Franchise list though. He was Drafted by the Patriots. That jumps the number to 7 in 10 years. Not only that, but where's John Elway? Granted he was drafted by Baltimore, but like Eli Manning he never played there.

9 in the last 10 years out of a possible 20.

It's significant.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

gbrittain, look at the Pats and Bill Belichick

he had BLedsoe as his QB, and at the time when he drafted Tom Brady, had no immediate plans for the future at QB, so you think he was going to wait until Bledsoe showed signs of ageing, or digressed, before he decided to find his franchise QB? and set his rebuiding process back? nope, I think he saw something in Brady, and decided to take a small chance on him in the 6th round, to develop him as his future, after Bledsoe

same thing Parcells is doing

 

[Hostile]

it's not? then how come he's giving me a list of SUper Bowl winners? or using the stats to show me that only 5 out of 39 Super Bowl winning QBs were not 1st round picks?

Where did he say anything was a lock? He's talking about increasing the odds of success. Nothing more.

 

[jterrell]

Since 1998 a lot of teams have been betting the farm on young QBs in an attempt to get a franchise QB.

1998 saw Peyton drafted 1st overall.
1999 had Couch go 1st overall.
2001 had Vick.
2002 had Carr.
2003 had Palmer.
2004 had Manning.
2005 had Alex Smith.


Of those 7 teams 3 made the playoffs and NONE are still playing.
My point would be that you can not simply put long odds into finding a franchise guy and instead should focus on the much more doable process of finding a guy who can be surrounded with talent and succeed. Guys like Plummer and Bledsoe and Collins and Dilfer and Brad Johnson and Jake Delhomme. All of them played for the teams they went to SBs with without costing much except Bledsoe.

 

[jterrell]

Time to add Brady to the Franchise list though. He was Drafted by the Patriots. That jumps the number to 7 in 10 years. Not only that, but where's John Elway? Granted he was drafted by Baltimore, but like Eli Manning he never played there.

9 in the last 10 years out of a possible 20.

It's significant.

And you can dilute any point to being meaningless as this would do.
Brady was a 6th round pick. He was no where near being considered an attempt to draft a franchise QB. In fact at the time Bledsoe WAS the franchise QB. Its like saying Dallas drafting Larry Allen proved Larry Lacewell knew talent.

By including all QBs drafted by a team you bring in all QBs who failed which make the odds astronomically bad. http://www.drafthistory.com/positions/qb.html


If a QB takes his team to a SB, and especially if he takes them to 3 he becomes a franchise QB no matter whether he's Bart Starr who most felt was no better than 5th or 6th best QB of his era, Jake Delhomme who sat on a bench behind Aaron Brooks and was not signed as a starter when he was a free agent or anyone else.

SO the argument about franchise QBs getting to SBs becomes comical because the qualifier is generally how many SBs you have been to.

Hopefully that makes some sense to some of the readers if not the majority.

 

[joseephuss]

Since 1998 a lot of teams have been betting the farm on young QBs in an attempt to get a franchise QB.

1998 saw Peyton drafted 1st overall.
1999 had Couch go 1st overall.
2001 had Vick.
2002 had Carr.
2003 had Palmer.
2004 had Manning.
2005 had Alex Smith.


Of those 7 teams 3 made the playoffs and NONE are still playing.
My point would be that you can not simply put long odds into finding a franchise guy and instead should focus on the much more doable process of finding a guy who can be surrounded with talent and succeed. Guys like Plummer and Bledsoe and Collins and Dilfer and Brad Johnson and Jake Delhomme. All of them played for the teams they went to SBs with without costing much except Bledsoe.

Collins, Dilfer and Johnson aren't getting those teams into contention every year. That is where a top notch QB makes the difference. Most of the teams that build a good core along with a top QB are competing in the playoffs for more than a season or two. Nothing is a lock, but the odds get better the earlier you draft a QB, but that is not the only way to get a top QB. There is free agency, trades or get lucky/good scouting to find a later round guy.

Dallas has used two approaches to getting a top QB and have been successful with each. The Cowboys used a late round pick to grab Staubach. He would have been a 1st rounder, but no teams wanted to use high picks for a guy that would not be around for 5 years. So, Dallas got lucky on that one. Dallas used the #1 overall to get Aikman.

The common theme isn't how they got a top QB, but that they did get one. They also built teams around them. They got good running backs, strong lines, good receivers and an upper echelon defense. That is why both respective QBs not only won a Superbowl, they won more and were in contention for several years.

The difference between Staubach and Morton or Staubach and White is why Dallas won Superbowls. Morton and White were both very good QBs that played on very good teams. Those teams could get deep into the playoffs. Staubach was the factor that helped the teams win it all.

 

[Hostile]

Predictable response. Aw well...

 

[Hostile]

Collins, Dilfer and Johnson aren't getting those teams into contention every year. That is where a top notch QB makes the difference. Most of the teams that build a good core along with a top QB are competing in the playoffs for more than a season or two. Nothing is a lock, but the odds get better the earlier you draft a QB, but that is not the only way to get a top QB. There is free agency, trades or get lucky/good scouting to find a later round guy.

Dallas has used two approaches to getting a top QB and have been successful with each. The Cowboys used a late round pick to grab Staubach. He would have been a 1st rounder, but no teams wanted to use high picks for a guy that would not be around for 5 years. So, Dallas got lucky on that one. Dallas used the #1 overall to get Aikman.

The common theme isn't how they got a top QB, but that they did get one. They also built teams around them. They got good running backs, strong lines, good receivers and an upper echelon defense. That is why both respective QBs not only one a Superbowl, they one more and were in contention for several years.

The difference between Staubach and Morton or Staubach and White is why Dallas won Superbowls. Morton and White were both very good QBs that played on very good teams. Those teams could get deep into the playoffs. Staubach was the factor that helped the teams win it all.

Exactly, exactly, exactly!!!

 

[jterrell]

Exactly, exactly, exactly!!!

By all means so please do go out and sign Roger Staubach!!

Was Tom Brady better this year or when he won the first Super Bowl?

 

[Hostile]

By all means so please do go out and sign Roger Staubach!!

Was Tom Brady better this year or when he won the first Super Bowl?

I have no earthly idea what point you're trying to make. My apologies if I'm being dense. I just don't get it.