Sturm: Chance Warmack

[Macnalty]

IMO Chance will immediately improve the run game, the passing game is another story, he is limited in lateral agility compared to his prowess in the run game which is off the charts. He will have some growing pains in pass protection. Wow him and Barrett Jones together would completely change the complexion of the offensive line think 90's cowboy line domination. That could be as simple as a first and third round pick.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

It's funny to me to hear how Earl Thomas is now considered a worthy Safety pick in the first round. When he was coming out, many on this board said the same kinds of things about Thomas as they are now saying about Vacarro.

Heck, Ed Reed wasn't drafted until the 24th pick of the 1st round when he came out. He was one of the best Safeties I ever saw. Roy Williams was dearly loved on this board, coming out of OU. I didn't really like him all that well as our pick that year.

It's pretty subjective in a lot of cases. I am not at all sure that Warmack is a better player then is Vacarro. I guess we'll see.

 

[jterrell]

Sturm also hit the nail on the head regarding his big gut that he likes to put on display.

sounds like every good offensive lineman ever.

powerlifters and offensive linemen seldom feature beach bodies.

water is an essential part of our strength and a heavier guy with sloppy looking water weight is going to be much stronger than a lean bodybuilder.

if you want to make a swimsuit calander of ol then i agree warmack isnt your guy.

 

[jterrell]

It's funny to me to hear how Earl Thomas is now considered a worthy Safety pick in the first round. When he was coming out, many on this board said the same kinds of things about Thomas as they are now saying about Vacarro.

Heck, Ed Reed wasn't drafted until the 24th pick of the 1st round when he came out. He was one of the best Safeties I ever saw. Roy Williams was dearly loved on this board, coming out of OU. I didn't really like him all that well as our pick that year.

It's pretty subjective in a lot of cases. I am not at all sure that Warmack is a better player then is Vacarro. I guess we'll see.

Thomas and Vaccaro have had VERY different Longhorn careers and were very different players. As a Longhorn fan you should recognize that immediately.

Thomas was by far the better center field ball hawk and Vaccaro was the psuedo-corner.


I loved Ed Reed as well. That Miami secondary was amazing with reed, Rumph, and midget. They were dominant. I loved the thought of trading down and taking Reed.

I did love Roy though too and until rule changes and a shift to more coverage duty he was amazing. His ability to intimidate players was second to none in his few seasons of terror.

No offense but anyone who thinks Vaccaro is a better football player than Warmack imho haven't watched much football. It really isnt close.

I agree you may see positional value favor Vaccaro for many teams including Dallas but purely as a football player it isn't close. No closer than UT versus Bama as teams in 2012. Lots of very experienced football guys like Mike Mayock call Warmack the best player they saw on tape this year for a reason.

 

[burmafrd]

Where is Fuzzy and his "Warmack will be a bust"?

obviously the real expert should weigh in on the O line.

 

[xwalker]

Where is Fuzzy and his "Warmack will be a bust"?

obviously the real expert should weigh in on the O line.

He did say that he would be a bust. He just said that he was overrated.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Thomas and Vaccaro have had VERY different Longhorn careers and were very different players. As a Longhorn fan you should recognize that immediately.

Thomas was by far the better center field ball hawk and Vaccaro was the psuedo-corner.

Yeah, never the less, both were talked down and many said that neither were worthy of a 1st round pick. The point is that Thomas was, in the opinion of others, worthy of a 1st round pick in retrospect. Vacarro might end up being worthy as well. I think he is.

I loved Ed Reed as well. That Miami secondary was amazing with reed, Rumph, and midget. They were dominant. I loved the thought of trading down and taking Reed.

I agree. I could not believe that Roy was ranked ahead of Ed Reed in that draft. I thought Ed Reed was the prototypical Safety and perfect replacement to Woody. Broke my heart to see him go to Batlimore.

I did love Roy though too and until rule changes and a shift to more coverage duty he was amazing. His ability to intimidate players was second to none in his few seasons of terror.

I never liked that pick. I watched a great deal of Roy Williams and the OU Defense while he was there. I always felt like they schemed him, in much the same way the Steelers did with Polumalu, to create opportunities for him defensively. I never felt like he was all that good in coverage. Reed, he could make plays in the confines of the defensive scheme regardless. I just never could understand why so many liked Roy over Reed.

No offense but anyone who thinks Vaccaro is a better football player than Warmack imho haven't watched much football. It really isnt close.

No offense but I don't agree with you. You don't know what Vacarro might be in the NFL yet. I'm pretty sure I know exactly what Warmack is going to be. Vacarro played on what was probably the worst defensive team in Texas History. I know how much help he got. Warmack played with an NFL quality talent level at every position on the OL at Alabama. It's very easy to over estimate what he can be in the NFL when you surround him with a talent advantage like that. I don't think you can say that one or the other is head an shoulders above the other at this point.

I agree you may see positional value favor Vaccaro for many teams including Dallas but purely as a football player it isn't close. No closer than UT versus Bama as teams in 2012. Lots of very experienced football guys like Mike Mayock call Warmack the best player they saw on tape this year for a reason.

Lots of these experts said the same thing about lots of players and they never panned out. Their opinions are not set in stone. They do make mistakes about how good players can be. You need look no further then the 2002 draft as example of that. I just don't agree that you can say it's a closed issue. Warmack is not even the best Guard, IMO, in this draft. I could not trust anybody who says he's the best player they've seen in this draft. If I'm wrong, that's OK. I will be here to discuss it. If I'm not, I'll still be here.

 

[jterrell]

ABQ: Roy and Reed were very different players. RW31 was clearly a pure strong safety and an in the box player who rocked people and could blitz. Reed was a centerfielder who allowed nothing over the top... ever. His skillset has gained value as the offense has gotten all the rule change favoritism. But a couple years in RW31 was the better player. Over their career it is clearly Reed by a country mile.

Liking Cooper over Warmack is fine stylistically. Everyone has preferences. But calling any other guard's game tape better is just inaccurate to the point of bald-face lying. (I haven't seen anyone do it by the way). Warmack faced
multiple draftable guys including at times facing draftable DT and releasing to block draftable LB. He handled those duties very well. No one else can make that claim at OG. Barrett Jones was pretty darn good at OC but didn't do the releasing very often and he generally was passed DTs by Warmack. TAMU and Bama obviously had dominant Tackles but nothing at OG compared to Warmack.
A guy like Cooper played maybe one or two draftable DTs/LBs all year and certainly not in one game. So yea he easily beat people all year but it isnt close to the same as watching a guy who makes plays consistently in every other game get shut down by Warmack.

Vaccaro is a late 1st rounder IMO. He has produced about half the INTs Earl Thomas had. He is more of the Darren Woodson type player(tho much smaller obviously). Can make cover and play an area but not a true cover 2 Safety that sits back and makes reads. UT changed defenses obviously between these two guys.

Earl Thomas came out of a really stacked draft. We got Dez at 24... JPP went 15th after Thomas. Great draft. Anyone would love Thomas right now.
Not the most physical safety was the knock on him at the time but the Seahawks have physicality galore in those other DBs. Everyone knew he could cover and he has.

 

[AKATheRake]

The question isn't between Safety vs Guard. The question should be who is better. One of the guards of Vacarro?


I don't feel like there is some huge fall off after Vacarro. In fact i'd rather have a guy that makes a few more plays on the ball than him.

Give me Cooper or Warmack over Vacarro. Some team will let go of a solid safety. Teams usually don't let quality OL hit the streets.

:signmast: Swearinger and Rambo can also handle their business if all this talk about the team liking Matt Johnson is all fluff. They will be around with others.

 

[Gaede]

It's funny to me to hear how Earl Thomas is now considered a worthy Safety pick in the first round. When he was coming out, many on this board said the same kinds of things about Thomas as they are now saying about Vacarro.

Heck, Ed Reed wasn't drafted until the 24th pick of the 1st round when he came out. He was one of the best Safeties I ever saw. Roy Williams was dearly loved on this board, coming out of OU. I didn't really like him all that well as our pick that year.

It's pretty subjective in a lot of cases. I am not at all sure that Warmack is a better player then is Vacarro. I guess we'll see.

You make an excellent point here...

Makes me think twice about Vaccaro

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

ABQ: Roy and Reed were very different players. RW31 was clearly a pure strong safety and an in the box player who rocked people and could blitz. Reed was a centerfielder who allowed nothing over the top... ever. His skillset has gained value as the offense has gotten all the rule change favoritism. But a couple years in RW31 was the better player. Over their career it is clearly Reed by a country mile.

Can't say I agree with this. In his 2nd year, Ed Reed was a Pro Bowl Safety. In his 3rd Season, he was a Pro Bowl Safety and a 1st Team All Pro. Roy Williams was also an All Pro in his 2nd Season but he never did it again. Reed would continue to repeat that. So I guess if you want to say that Roy became an All Pro sooner, then perhaps but if your counting beyond each players 2nd season, then no. Ed Reed was the better player.

Liking Cooper over Warmack is fine stylistically. Everyone has preferences. But calling any other guard's game tape better is just inaccurate to the point of bald-face lying. (I haven't seen anyone do it by the way). Warmack faced
multiple draftable guys including at times facing draftable DT and releasing to block draftable LB. He handled those duties very well. No one else can make that claim at OG. Barrett Jones was pretty darn good at OC but didn't do the releasing very often and he generally was passed DTs by Warmack. TAMU and Bama obviously had dominant Tackles but nothing at OG compared to Warmack.

I never said this.

A guy like Cooper played maybe one or two draftable DTs/LBs all year and certainly not in one game. So yea he easily beat people all year but it isnt close to the same as watching a guy who makes plays consistently in every other game get shut down by Warmack.

This is not true at all.

2009- DTs BJ Raji and Ron Brace (BC), Dorell Scott (Clemson), Vance Walker and Darryle Richard (GTech), Terrance Taylor (Michigan), Kendall Reyes (UConn). LBs Aaron Curry and Stan Arnoux (Wake), Clint Stinim (Virginia), Nat Irvin (NCSt.), Cody Brown, Greg Lloyd and Lawrence Wilson (UConn), Scott McKillop (Pitt), Spence Adkins and Colin McCarthy (TheU), Moise Fokou (Maryland), Brandon Graham and Jonas Mouton (Michigan), Luke Kuechly (BC).

2010 - DTs Al Woods and Michael Bokers (LSU), Linval Joseph (ECU), Sean Lissemore (William & Mary), Dan Williams and Malik Jackson (Vols). LBs Perry Riley, Kelvin Sheppard and Drake Nevis (LSU), Kavell Conner (Clemson), Daryle Sharpton and Colin McCarthy (TheU), Dekota Watson (FSU), Adrian Tracy (William & Mary), Jason Worilds (VTech), Ryan D'Imperio (Rutgers), Nat Irvin (NCSt.)

2011- DTs Jarvis Jenkins (Clemson), Markus Kuhn (NCSt.) - LBs Nat Irvin (NCSt.), Colin McCarthy (TheU), James Thomas (WVU), Andrew Gachkar (Missu), Nigel Bradham (FSU), Kyle Wilber (Wake), Terrell Manning and Audie Cole (NCSt.),

2012 - We'll see who gets drafted this year but it's certain there will be some names on here.

Anyway, it's ridiculous to imply that Cooper has not played against NFL Talent at UNC. Every name listed was drafted by the NFL.

Vaccaro is a late 1st rounder IMO. He has produced about half the INTs Earl Thomas had. He is more of the Darren Woodson type player(tho much smaller obviously). Can make cover and play an area but not a true cover 2 Safety that sits back and makes reads. UT changed defenses obviously between these two guys.

That's true. UT used to bring in guys and rotate them from Safety to CB, plus, they were much better defensively and offensively. They scored a lot and as a result, teams had to throw a lot against them to try and come back. That's where all your INTs came from.

Earl Thomas came out of a really stacked draft. We got Dez at 24... JPP went 15th after Thomas. Great draft. Anyone would love Thomas right now.
Not the most physical safety was the knock on him at the time but the Seahawks have physicality galore in those other DBs. Everyone knew he could cover and he has.

I think some believed he could play. A great many believed he was soft, not very fast and not very big. In fact, I know that many believed that.

 

[jterrell]

ABQ: Cooper didn't play GT, Virginia or UConn in 2009.
And many of those people you list weren't DT/ILBs so is somewhat disingenuous.

I mean we drafted Kyle Wilber so surely you understand he was really a DE for Wake Forest right?

Bottom line is for 2012 there's not much to his level of opponent AT ALL. If you have been watching tape of Cooper from his sophomore year than I applaud you.


Back to the Thomas/Vaccaro thing. Again two totally different type players. Much like our Reed/RW31 discussion. Very different style player. I could see someone like Bill Parcells drafting Vaccaro and moving him to CB. Earl Thomas was always considered a centerfielder.

This is a Cowboys board and you are confusing normal UT/OU homers poking each other with legit draftnik takes IMHO.

 

[xwalker]

I mean we drafted Kyle Wilber so surely you understand he was really a DE for Wake Forest right?

I believe that Wilber was a 3-4 OLB. He played in coverage more often than he rushed the passer in the games that I watched.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

ABQ: Cooper didn't play GT, Virginia or UConn in 2009.
And many of those people you list weren't DT/ILBs so is somewhat disingenuous.

JT, in 2009, the score for the UConn game was 12-10 UNC. The score for the Cavaliers game was 16-3 Virginia. The score for the GTech game was 24-7 GTech.

http://www.fbschedules.com/ncaa-09/acc/2009-north-carolina-tar-heels-football-schedule.php

They are all listed as DTs or LBs and you made no distinction between ILB and OLB. You only said LB. However, since you did bring this up, Guards also block OLBs at times. I guess you can choose to call it disingenuous but just because you say this does not make it so.

I mean we drafted Kyle Wilber so surely you understand he was really a DE for Wake Forest right?

No, he was a LB.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2011/profiles/kyle-wilber?id=2532974

However, I do think it's interesting that you claim he was a DE since you also claimed that only Warmack ever blocked "NFL Draftable" DTs and LBs. Clearly, that statement is not true.

Bottom line is for 2012 there's not much to his level of opponent AT ALL. If you have been watching tape of Cooper from his sophomore year than I applaud you.

I need no applause. I am simply trying to keep the record clear. As you can see by the information provide, much of what you are claiming is not entirely accurate.

Back to the Thomas/Vaccaro thing. Again two totally different type players. Much like our Reed/RW31 discussion. Very different style player. I could see someone like Bill Parcells drafting Vaccaro and moving him to CB. Earl Thomas was always considered a centerfielder.

The fact that Thomas and Vaccaro are different players is not in question. I agree, they are different players but the same type of arguments as to why each of them should not be considered in the 1st round were very similar and it really lead back to each of those players playing for Texas IMO. It had nothing, at all, to do with what was on film. Both of these guys were and are worthy of a 1st round grade IMO.

This is a Cowboys board and you are confusing normal UT/OU homers poking each other with legit draftnik takes IMHO.

You are entitled to your opinion, however misguided it might be.

 

[Verdict]

I may be wrong, but I don't see us drafting Chance even if he is on the board. I just don't think it is going to happen.

 

[Gaede]

I don't see what you guys see! Maybe I should've watched the whole video.

But Warmack looked awesome to me.

 

[AKATheRake]

I may be wrong, but I don't see us drafting Chance even if he is on the board. I just don't think it is going to happen.

Why not?

 

[burmafrd]

I don't see what you guys see! Maybe I should've watched the whole video.

But Warmack looked awesome to me.

they looked for what they WANTED to see.

 

[Eddie]

Stop the day dreaming ... we will not draft an OG in the first round.

May as well expect Jerry to pick up a PK, P, or FB in the first round.

 

[AKATheRake]

Sturm also hit the nail on the head regarding his big gut that he likes to put on display.

Lol!

Warmack is a beast and only 21. Another reason why I prefer him to Cooper.